Keteks

[valkynphyre]

Holy is Fire. Warming souls of gold and darkness and light, light and darkness and gold of souls warming. Fire is Holy.

Holy is Fire./ Warming souls/ of gold and darkness and light,/ light and darkness and gold of souls warming./ Fire is Holy.

Hmm... I think this one actually could be classified as a 1. 22 words as well.

Edited June 5, 2012 by valkynphyre

[FeatherWriter]

Do we know anything about linguistics on Roshar? How their language works probably has a big effect on how strict the mirroring has to be, and on how difficult it is to adhere to the form. For example Russian (that being the only foreign language I've studied) doesn't use articles so #4 is not as much of an issue, on the other hand, it has cases (meaning, nouns and adjectives change form depending on what part of the sentence they are) so that makes it a lot harder harder for it to be the exact same word front and back. Other languages I'm sure have their own issues.

Ah, I would absolutely love to know more about Rosharian linguistics. I'm hoping to someday be a linguist myself and languages are my passion. That's an interesting note about Russian - I didn't know that before. I was thinking about how it might work in French, which is the only other language I'm really familiar with. It'd be difficult, what with masculine and feminine adjective forms for different verbs. I'd put a ketek containing m/f swaps as a Level 2.

However, with French, there would also be really cool opportunities for meaning swaps, because depending on where you place an adjective, it changes meaning. For example, the phrases "pauvre homme" and "homme pauvre". Both literally translate to "poor man" but the first describes someone who is pitiable, like "Oh, my poor baby!", while the second describes someone who has little money, like "We've been poor ever since you lost your job."

I may have to look into writing some French keteks for you all...

[ReaderAt2046]

"God dying/a perfect atonement/Jesus/atonement perfected/a dying God"

And to answer the poll question, I think the best theme for a ketek is Christianity.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[ReaderAt2046]

I think there should be some kind of differentiation between how strictly it follows the ketek form. (Sliding scale of Ketek hardness, anyone?)

1. All the words are exactly the same.

2. Changes in pluralization and verb tense.

3. Swaps between the same root words (verbs vs. nouns vs. adjectives vs. adverbs; he hunts, the hunt, a hunting party could be used to switch)

4. Small words and articles added for flow (a, an, of, the, and)

5. Basic form is the same, though some larger words may appear unmirrored.

6. A regular sentence.

So what truly qualifies as a ketek? I feel like the book would cut off at 2, maybe 3, though we only see two keteks and both qualify as 2. The note on keteks specifically says only verb tenses, not the same root word.

GOOD NEWS! I found a level 3 ketek, explicitly acknowledged as legitimate.

"Radiant of birthplace, the announcer comes, to come announce the birthplace of Radiants"

So level 3s definitely count.

[FeatherWriter]

Ooh! You're right! I totally missed that "announcer" "announce" is a noun/verb switch. Yep, level 3's are canon!

[ReaderAt2046]

God/creating all glories/Jesus/glorious/all-creating God.

[ReaderAt2046]

God/creating all glories/Jesus/glorious/all-creating God.

Umm, why was this downvoted? It's a perfectly legitimate ketek.

[Shard of Choice]

I wrote this cause I love Keteks, I think they have a shiver inducing kind of depth and flow. Here is one I wrote about Ruin, more the intent than the Shard

Ruin, a natural culmination, Life, culminates naturally in Ruin

Edited July 6, 2012 by Shard of Choice

[Musicspren]

Umm, why was this downvoted? It's a perfectly legitimate ketek.

No idea; I see no harm in the glories/glorious switch, and that's the most I could see wrong with it (if I'm really trying to be negative, which I generally wouldn't). I've upvoted them back to neutral.

[FeatherWriter]

No idea; I see no harm in the glories/glorious switch, and that's the most I could see wrong with it (if I'm really trying to be negative, which I generally wouldn't). I've upvoted them back to neutral.

Hmm. They were at -2 when I got here, so I upvoted each of them again.

Seriously guys? We're doing religious debate stuff over keteks? Do you think that it's not appropriate? Keteks are supposed to be a holy poetic form. The Vorins wrote keteks about the Almighty. For all we know, they might be offended by our secular keteks! (I don't think so, but who knows? Those ardents can be pretty uptight!) In my opinion, a ketek with religious content would be closer to canon than another subject.

I mean, really. One of Studier's original poll questions was "Do you think Keteks are holy, admirable, or both?" And most people said both.

Let's be mature here and not downvote anyone based on the subject of their Ketek please? Especially not over someone's religious beliefs. Please. We're just asking for a flame war here...

[Musicspren]

It seems odd that we'd have downvoting over religions here. Apart from the fact that doing so is inane (which should be enough on a Sanderson fansite), there was a discussion of religions on one thread, which was completely civil, without downvotes.

[Shivertongue]

Okay, this is diverging too much. Let's get things back on topic, with what I think is the best subject for keteks... WAFFLES!

Perfect deliciousness/flaky golden disc/beautiful waffleness/beautiful disc of gold/flaky deliciousness perfected.

[Shivertongue]

I think this is a relevant doublepost. A ketek about Eric's story, which is an epic retelling of Harry Potter from Ron's perspective. A powerful story of love, loss, and triumph against the odds.

Also, Ron is a bulldozer.

'Raining bulldozers/run crap over/Ron's over crap/running/bulldozers reigning.'

[ReaderAt2046]

I think this is a relevant doublepost. A ketek about Eric's story, which is an epic retelling of Harry Potter from Ron's perspective. A powerful story of love, loss, and triumph against the odds.

Also, Ron is a bulldozer.

'Raining bulldozers/run crap over/Ron's over crap/running/bulldozers reigning.'

"Raining" and "reigning" are not the same word, or even different isotopes of the same root. -1.

[Rubix]

Actually, the written language of WoK is phonetic, so words that sound the same should be able to be used interchangeably.

[ReaderAt2046]

Actually, the written language of WoK is phonetic, so words that sound the same should be able to be used interchangeably.

Um, we're writing in English, not Alethi.

[Rubix]

Yes, but the only canonized examples we have would have benn written in Alethi, so who's to say that homophones aren't valid? Just because we haven't seen an example of it yet (our current sample is considerably small) doesn't mean we never will.

[Shivertongue]

I imagine that some keteks are entirely verbal, otherwise men would not be able to write them. In fact, with that in mind, homophones would have to be allowed, because the men wouldn't know if they were spelling a word wrong - for all they know, 'rain' and 'reign' are spelled the same.

[Chaos]

"Raining" and "reigning" are not the same word, or even different isotopes of the same root. -1.

I'm pretty sure isotope can't be used to describe words

Eh. In any case, change it to "raining" and it's still hilarious.

[Shard of Choice]

Here is one that I feel better about, even though it doesnt hold perfectly to the ketek format as far as smaller words and some order

Within the shadow of the soul/ as rage cools/ to sad depression/ sadness cooling rage/ the soul of shadow within.

And Here are two more that I just wrote I think are better. The more I write these the more it seems my mind can wrap around them, and phrase better ideas in a Ketek friendly fashion.

Uncontrolled fury/ fueling action/angered action/fueling fury/ uncontrollably

Beating battles dance/ arise Radiant Knights/ calling Honor’s call/ Knights Radiant arising/ dancing battles beat.

Please Edit your post instead of double posting -Rubix

Edited July 9, 2012 by Rubix
Double Post

[Lady_Yasha]

Umm, why was this downvoted? It's a perfectly legitimate ketek.

"Jesus" doesn't exist in TWoK.

But bulldozers so obviously do!

[ReaderAt2046]

"Jesus" doesn't exist in TWoK.

But bulldozers so obviously do!

Nobody said we had to confine ourselves to things in TWoK. And besides, keteks are supposed to be holy poetry, so writing them about Jesus is truer to source than almost anything else.

[Shivertongue]

Nobody said we had to confine ourselves to things in TWoK. And besides, keteks are supposed to be holy poetry, so writing them about Jesus is truer to source than almost anything else.

I have to respectfully but utterly disagree with that.

Ketek about Jesus are holy, presuming you're a member of one form of Christianity or another. To those of us who are not Christian, a ketek about Jesus is a ketek of just another man, possibly fictional, and thus in our eyes is definitely not truer to source.

Keep that in mind, if you would please.

[Musicspren]

I have to respectfully but utterly disagree with that.

Ketek about Jesus are holy, presuming you're a member of one form of Christianity or another. To those of us who are not Christian, a ketek about Jesus is a ketek of just another man, possibly fictional, and thus in our eyes is definitely not truer to source.

Keep that in mind, if you would please.

And I shall respectfully disagree with you - I think a ketek is holy (in topic) if it has to to with a religion, whatever that religion is. That doesn't make a ketek that is holy in topic necessarily better than one that isn't, but saying it's not holy because you're not Christian is like saying the keteks in The Way of Kings are actually not holy unless you are Vorin. Which, I'm guessing, none of us on this thread are.

[Shivertongue]

And I shall respectfully disagree with you - I think a ketek is holy (in topic) if it has to to with a religion, whatever that religion is. That doesn't make a ketek that is holy in topic necessarily better than one that isn't, but saying it's not holy because you're not Christian is like saying the keteks in The Way of Kings are actually not holy unless you are Vorin. Which, I'm guessing, none of us on this thread are.

A fair point. But I have to counter with the fact that, to me, Vorin keteks are not holy, precisely because I am not a believer in Vorinism. To me, they are just poems; to an ardent, they may be up there with holy scripture. Just because another religion, real or fictional, believes something to be holy does not mean that I have to regard it that way as well.

My previous post was specifically in regards to Reader. He stated that a ketek about Jesus was truer to source than just about anything else, and I wanted to make the point that this isn't true for everyone. If you are a Christian, then yes it is. I am speaking only for myself, and while I respect and take no issue with the religious beliefs of anyone else, a broad statement such as that could be taken as offensive.