Moridin997

[WoB] Bavadin and the Splintering of Dominion and Devotion

17 posts in this topic

 

3 minutes ago, Moridin997 said:

I got a question answered during the actual signing. I hope it wasn't asked before. I think it wasn't, because he hesitated a lot...

Quote

Me: Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon: Uhh...

Me (sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon: Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

Why I asked this? Because it didn't make sense to me that Odium could singlehandedly splinter both Dominion and Devotion in a "brief visit" (as per Hoid) to Sel. No matter how singularly dangerous a Shard of Hatred must, the other two shouldn't be any pushovers... After all, Dominion's Investiture seems to fuel, among other things, the magic of the Dakhor Monks, which seems pretty dark and destructive, so Dominion itself must have been capable of defending himself...

My theory is that Bavadin (Shard of Autonomy?) meddled in Sel before or during Odium's visit. My ideas of what might have happened:

- Bavadin managed to turn Dominion and Devotion against each other, weakening them for Odium's killing blow.

- Bavadin was an architect of the disunity seen in Sel. There seem to exist too many cults and religions on Sel, many warring each other.

My theory is that the infighting on Sel weakened the Identity (but not necessarily the Investiture) of Dominion and Devotion. After all, the Intent of those Shards should be, among other things, "unity" and "love". If those using your Investiture don't adequately pursue those ideas, your Identity is weakened. The "Splintering", in my view, might be the decoupling of Identity from the Investiture from a Shard. Thus, as seen on Sel, the Investiture is still available for use (there seem to be many Splinters around), but the underlying will to guide it is missing.

Just like Odium's Intent seems to singularly oppose Devotion's, so should Autonomy's Intent oppose Dominion's. Thus making Bavadin (who is the Shard of Autonomy, right...?) both a willing and likely sidekick for this "double murder on Sel"...

 

Let the discussion begin... xD

 

P.S.: Also, my first post. I hope it's a nice initiation to the 17th Shard :)

 

Edited by Moridin997
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Welcome to the Shard! It's a great question, but I'm worried that you might have opened it up a little too wide when you added "In any way." Brandon will stretch questions like that, and he's admitted it, especially the kind when someone asks "Is there any connection between X and Y." So, it's hard to draw conclusions on what specifically it could mean for Bavadin to have been involved. It could be anything from "Hoid was trying to stop Odium, but he was busy with Autonomy regarding a completely separate issue, so Hoid couldn't stop him and Odium shattered the other two Shards," down to "Autonomy and Odium tag-teamed the Selish Shards."

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Greetings, and well posted! It is interesting that Bavadin (with whatever shard) was involved at all with Sel. I wonder if this was by motive, affiliation or more directly. I hope we find out in the near future. Tracking Shardholders with timelines is currently an incredibly tricky pastime.

Edited by 1stBondsmith
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15 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Tracking Shardholders with timelines is currently and incredibly tricky pastime.

How amazing will it be if AU gives us a more concrete timeline of the cosmere?

Edited by VirtuousTraveller
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1 minute ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

How amazing with it be if AU gives us a more concrete timeline of the cosmere?

I'm holding out hope for this. It's pretty shocking, how little definitive info we have on cross-series timelines.

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If Bavadin chose not to interfere Rayse's murdering of D&D, then it can also be considered a kind of "help in any way". And it corresponded with the Intent of Autonomy. JMO(shrug

Edited by Sam Script
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2 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

If Bavadin chose not to interfere Rayse's murdering of D&D, then it can also be considered a kind of "help in any way". And it corresponded with the Intent of Autonomy. JMO(shrug

I was actually just about to post this, great minds think alike I guess. In all honesty I'd be hesitant to go to far down the rabbit hole of this theory because Brandon had a loophole a mile wide.

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4 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

If Bavadin chose not to interfere Rayse's murdering of D&D, then it can also be considered a kind of "help in any way". And it corresponded with the Intent of Autonomy. JMO(shrug

 

True... But in that case, it would be easier for Sanderson to simply say "No, not really...".

Also, in terms of Shard Intent, Autonomy is about as opposed to Dominion as any Shard could be. Would it really pass up the chance to end its opposite, removing a major player that could reduce "autonomy" throughout the Cosmere? I find it unlikely. Even Preservation wasn't that passive...

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Considering the wide variety of possible interpretations for Autonomy it is conceivable that he would leave his opposite alone.

A LOT depends on how the concept manifests. Remember; Ruin could have been a lot worse than it was. What we got was the best interpretation Ati could find, though someone with a stronger personality might have found a better one; someone with a crueler nature might have found a worse one.

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By my interpretation of "Autonomy" Bavadin should be leaving everyone alone pretty much...

That makes me wonder about Bavadin as himself and what he's planning...

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Brandon mentioned that he was 'very fond of Bavadin' when asked who is favorite of the original sixteen Vessels, though he didn't actually say Bavadin was his favorite. Anyhow, worth noting because there's clearly a story there he's going to tell us eventually..

8 hours ago, Moridin997 said:

True... But in that case, it would be easier for Sanderson to simply say "No, not really...".

Yes, but this way allows him to tease us by making us think he's said something significant and then getting a chuckle as we read far more meaning into it than he ever intended us to. True, we have other reasons to suspect a Rayse/Bavadin team-up has happened or will in the future but the answer is broad enough that we can't really use it to confirm Autonomy played an active role in Devotion/Dominion's splintering.

Still got more out of him than my first question which earned me a RAFO though so cheers either way. And welcome!

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It's not just dominion that opposes autonomy right?

Devotion to something puts you under its influence just as much as being a dominion of a state. It's conceivable that autonomy was just waiting for a chance to splinter DnD, possibly even making Odium target them before getting involved with Roshar.

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iirc, my friend @Botanica once asked Brandon what does the Intent "Autonomy" actually mean? And it means something like being independent and don't need to rely on others. So I think the Shard Autonomy is more like the "independence of an entity" rather than "independence of a nation or region". So I don't think Autonomy is a good counterpart to Dominion like Preservation vs Ruin.

Besides, there has been a WoB in one interview mentioning that Honor is quite a good counterpart to Autonomy, and Honor might be the best counterpart in the original 16.

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9 hours ago, Sam Script said:

Besides, there has been a WoB in one interview mentioning that Honor is quite a good counterpart to Autonomy, and Honor might be the best counterpart in the original 16.

In the original 16, ok, but now that Harmony is around ? Has it changed ?

I personally think that a non intervention is a help in some way. We shouldn't dig too deep. If he ought to fight something, it would be the Oaths of Knight Radiants, which schackles personal freedom. If indeed the Autonomy is relative to a region, institution, or anything else, then he would be on every battlefront to free the Cosmere, not just Sel and now presumably Scadrial.

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One thing that came to my mind was that in the Letter, Hoid states that "One need only look at the aftermath of his (Rayse's) brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say." If Bavadin had been involved in splintering Devotion and Dominion, I find it unlikely that he was actually present at Sel when it happened, or else Hoid would have said "One need only look at their brief visit to Sel." He could have still been involved, but I don't think he was involved in the splintering process itself.  

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8 hours ago, Patar said:

One thing that came to my mind was that in the Letter, Hoid states that "One need only look at the aftermath of his (Rayse's) brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say." If Bavadin had been involved in splintering Devotion and Dominion, I find it unlikely that he was actually present at Sel when it happened, or else Hoid would have said "One need only look at their brief visit to Sel." He could have still been involved, but I don't think he was involved in the splintering process itself.  

Hmmm. Good point. 

Hoid might not necessarily know they cooperated though.

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