CosmereQuestioner

First of the Sun used to have a shard (speculation)

44 posts in this topic

The essay from Khriss in the Arcanum Unbounded preview released by Tor today talks about the oddity that is FotS having a perpendicularity despite no shard.  She mentions this hints at its past, and she suspects investiture being there (clearly she doesn't know about the events of Fifth of the Dusk). 

So maybe the "shards that just wants to survive" used to call FotS home, and has since fled?

(Also, how does Khriss know where there are and aren't shards residing? Some sort of shardic signal they put off?)

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17 minutes ago, CosmereQuestioner said:

So maybe the "shards that just wants to survive" used to call FotS home, and has since fled?

This is an interesting thing to think about. Is it possible for a Shard to move on and still leave a perpendicularity? Did this Shard partially Invest itself and then decide to run away, leaving the shardpool intact?

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Good questions! My thoughts regarding FotS is that a shard probably was invested and pulled back as much available investiture as possible in a rush and fled. (Maybe some investiture is "more invested" (less free, or "liquid" to borrow financial terms), making it more complicated to take back and hence got left behind)

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At the end of Words of Radiance, Hoid says, I once spent the better part of a year in a giant stomach being digested. 

It could be there is a shard of Hunger or Consumption.

Such a shard would not want to either consume the world, nor stay where there is not enough to eat. The shard may have made its perpendicularity here, and then moved on to richer buffets. 

Notice, that the animals on the islands are very, very good at eating 

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An interesting thought, Zen, but sadly confirmed wrong :( you'll learn about what happened to Hoid in Arcanum Unbounded.

Edited by Amanuensis
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4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

An interesting thought, Zen, but sadly confirmed wrong :( you'll learn about what happened to Hoid in Arcanum Unbounded.

OK, read EdgeDancer, and the essays, but none of the rest of AU. Which story should I pay attention to?

You didn't mean that

Spoiler

guy who got eaten by a greatshell and winked at Lift do you?

That certainly isn't what he was talking about. 

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That is what I mean :P the general consensus is that is definitely Hoid, based on his mannerisms, and how well the two events correlate, and that those two characters would get along phenomenally.

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2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

That is what I mean :P the general consensus is that is definitely Hoid, based on his mannerisms, and how well the two events correlate, and that those two characters would get along phenomenally.

I am sure it is Hoid. I am not arguing that. I am just saying, there isn't enough time for him to have been in there, for that to be the thing he was talking about. 

Hoid said he was in there the better part of a year. But there has not been that much time since Lift was in Azimir. Likewise, I don't think Wit has been away from Alethkar for that long a period. 

It might be possible to shoehorn that in, but that is going to be really awkward timeline-wise. I think the best answer, is that what Hoid/Wit was referring to, was sometime previous. 

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7 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I am sure it is Hoid. I am not arguing that. I am just saying, there isn't enough time for him to have been in there, for that to be the thing he was talking about. 

Hoid said he was in there the better part of a year. But there has not been that much time since Lift was in Azimir. Likewise, I don't think Wit has been away from Alethkar for that long a period. 

It might be possible to shoehorn that in, but that is going to be really awkward timeline-wise. I think the best answer, is that what Hoid/Wit was referring to, was sometime previous. 

Ah, I see. You're assuming it happened recently. Since this is a different subject than the OP, please look here for discussion on that matter.

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On the original topic, I got a WoB on Shards moving on:

 

Quote

Q: If a Shard were to divest itself from a planet, would the perpendicularity there disappear?

A: Normally the shardpool would cease to exist, but there are circumstances that could prevent the shardpool from disappearing.

Basically, it doesn't really tell us anything about SotD (and honestly I was thinking about my theory that Autonomy has left Taldain), but I'd say it's more likely the perpendicularity there wasn't made by a Shard and then left behind, especially with this WoB (emphasis mine):
 

Quote

1. Threnody and Scadrial are both noted as having unusally bright patches of stars in their skies. Are these two planets near to one another?
2. Did Ashyn ever have a Shard, or is its magic a natural manifestation akin to Threnody or First of the Sun?
3. As you've stated that the magic of First of the Sun is natural and independent of any particular Shard, what is the nature of the pool on Patji? Is it also a natural manifestation of magic, a Perpendicularity, or simply a pool like any other?

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions, Brandon. I know you've always got family stuff, and writing, and all the other host of things that fill up a life to do, so it means a lot that you take the time to interact with us fans. Thank you for sharing your stories with us.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT)

1. They are both seeing the same thing, yes.
2. RAFO on Ashyn, as--being in the same system as Roshar--there are going to be some spoilers relating to Stormlight in anything I say here.
3. It's a natural manifestation, but on a much smaller scale than you might find on other worlds.

That makes it sound like a spontaneous phenomenon, not the creation of a Shard.

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I just finished my reread, and would like to point out that Patji's eye was coloured green, which may or may not link it having some Shardic flavour

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I don't think the color of the pool tells us anything, at this point. We've seen/heard of both green and blue shardpools.

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I just read SotD, and that pool indeed is strange. The whole story has a feeling about danger, survival, and automony.

The Trappers keep to themselves, they rely on no one except the aviars, they have to avoid a freakish lot of danger in order to survive.

Maybe the strong intent of the Trappers toward survival could have naturally imbued the pool with some Investiture from the corresponding Shard, but on a smaller scale. It isn't deep, or wide, and is the source of a stream. I don't think we saw something similar in other Cosmere books

What is particularly interesting is the Talent granted by most of the Aviar : Hiding the cognitive self. We heard about a Shard who wants to Hide + Survive. I don't say there is a Shard on FotS, but there might have been a Shard momentarily, who, voluntarily or not, bent the Investiture through his Intent (Is it possible, without a Shard Investing, to twist the natural Investiture of a place ?), and left to hide somewhere else.

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On 12/13/2016 at 2:23 PM, Demiandre said:

What is particularly interesting is the Talent granted by most of the Aviar : Hiding the cognitive self.

There isn't necessarily anything special about this, it could just be a survival strategy. If they couldn't hide, they would be dead, because the predators would have found them. As it is, most predators don't even bother going up into the trees, because they wouldn't be able to find anything. And presumably, the predators' ability to feel minds also has origins in the same magic.

I'm thinking it's either a shard that Invested and then ripped free (because all the magic seems to be concentrated around the perpendicularity, which would have been the biggest concentration of Investiture when a shard was there), or that this is one of the worlds Adonalsium visited. Not sure which one is more likely.

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I didn't say it was special, just that I found it particularly interesting, notably with regards to the unknown Shard :-)

41 minutes ago, Eki said:

I'm thinking it's either a shard that Invested and then ripped free (because all the magic seems to be concentrated around the perpendicularity, which would have been the biggest concentration of Investiture when a shard was there), or that this is one of the worlds Adonalsium visited. Not sure which one is more likely.

I always considered that Adonalsium visited all worlds pre-shattering, or naturally imbued them with ambiant Investiture. But I didn't think he would create a Shardpool. So I would lean toward your former idea.

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On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 8:47 AM, Eki said:

There isn't necessarily anything special about [the Aviar granting the Talent of hiding the cognitive self], it could just be a survival strategy. If they couldn't hide, they would be dead, because the predators would have found them. As it is, most predators don't even bother going up into the trees, because they wouldn't be able to find anything. And presumably, the predators' ability to feel minds also has origins in the same magic.

For some reason, your post's references to predators got me thinking about something that I'll likely make into a full theory soon, but I'll start here for now.

General Cosmere spoilers; specifically the Stormlight Archive & White Sand:

Spoiler

The big scary Great Shells on Roshar, the deep Sandlings on Taldain, the predators of First of the Sun who hunt cognitively... there seems to be a relationship between certain creatures and investiture. It's very interesting to me that on Roshar, the great shells form gemhearts which are also able to store stormlight. On Taldain, water appears to be a focus for that magic system and sandlings' bodies dissolve in water.

Something is going on here, and it seems to be Cosmere wide. However, there aren't any beasts of note on Scadrial, Nalthis, or Sel that we know about so far. Any thoughts?

Edited by KidWayne
forgot about Nalthis
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1 minute ago, KidWayne said:

For some reason, your post's references to predators got me thinking about something that I'll likely make into a full theory soon, but I'll start here for now.

General Cosmere spoilers; specifically the Stormlight Archive & White Sand:

  Hide contents

The big scary Great Shells on Roshar, the deep Sandlings on Taldain, the predators of First of the Sun who hunt cognitively... there seems to be a relationship between certain creatures and investiture. It's very interesting to me that on Roshar, the great shells form gemhearts which are also able to store stormlight. On Taldain, water appears to be a focus for that magic system and sandlings' bodies dissolve in water.

Something is going on here, and it seems to be Cosmere wide. However, there aren't any beasts of note on Scadrial or Sel that we know about so far. Any thoughts?

I have a theory that First of the Sun houses the Survival Shard (whose Vessel is named Patji) and that is why the nightmaws are so vicious. Perhaps the Patji's Fingers have different effects on different species?

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50 minutes ago, bleeder said:

I have a theory that First of the Sun houses the Survival Shard (whose Vessel is named Patji) and that is why the nightmaws are so vicious. Perhaps the Patji's Fingers have different effects on different species?

Khriss' essay in AU says there is no shard in the system (though it was of course written long before Sixth of the Dusk takes place). There are theories that there used to be one there, which Invested to create Patji's Eye, but then left for whatever reason.

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Just now, Eki said:

Khriss' essay in AU says there is no shard in the system (though it was of course written long before Sixth of the Dusk takes place). There are theories that there used to be one there, which Invested to create Patji's Eye, but then left for whatever reason.

Isn't Survival Shard's intent related to "hiding and surviving"? You'd think that, if something of such immense power wanted to not be detected, it wouldn't be.

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14 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Isn't Survival Shard's intent related to "hiding and surviving"? You'd think that, if something of such immense power wanted to not be detected, it wouldn't be.

Ah, ok, you meant like that!

I didn't even notice what the topic title was before I replied, so my answer looks really weird now. Oops!

But to reply with the right context this time, I think Brandon has stated that the shard we call the Survival shard only has a mandate that's tangentially (or not at all? I don't remember) related to "Survival" in and of itself. It could be Wisdom or Solitude or something like that instead. I guess the shard could still have stealth abilities. If I was a shard that wanted to be stealthy, I wouldn't leave a Perpendicularity on a planet where I was staying though. I wouldn't want any physical evidence of my presence.

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On December 13, 2016 at 5:23 AM, Demiandre said:

What is particularly interesting is the Talent granted by most of the Aviar : Hiding the cognitive self. We heard about a Shard who wants to Hide + Survive. I don't say there is a Shard on FotS, but there might have been a Shard momentarily, who, voluntarily or not, bent the Investiture through his Intent (Is it possible, without a Shard Investing, to twist the natural Investiture of a place ?), and left to hide somewhere else.

I love that talent granted by the Aviar.  I wonder if we've seen anyone outside this planet use it? (I.e. Can Hoid hide his cognitive self?). And the potential connection to the survival shard is interesting.

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On December 22, 2016 at 1:14 PM, KidWayne said:

For some reason, your post's references to predators got me thinking about something that I'll likely make into a full theory soon, but I'll start here for now.

General Cosmere spoilers; specifically the Stormlight Archive & White Sand:

  Hide contents

The big scary Great Shells on Roshar, the deep Sandlings on Taldain, the predators of First of the Sun who hunt cognitively... there seems to be a relationship between certain creatures and investiture. It's very interesting to me that on Roshar, the great shells form gemhearts which are also able to store stormlight. On Taldain, water appears to be a focus for that magic system and sandlings' bodies dissolve in water.

Something is going on here, and it seems to be Cosmere wide. However, there aren't any beasts of note on Scadrial, Nalthis, or Sel that we know about so far. Any thoughts?

Intriguing connection/observation.  I wish we knew more about all three of these.  Something is going on there for sure.

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10 hours ago, djammmer said:

I love that talent granted by the Aviar.  I wonder if we've seen anyone outside this planet use it? (I.e. Can Hoid hide his cognitive self?). And the potential connection to the survival shard is interesting.

Another interesting idea--could it mask someone from an Awakener's Lifesense? As in, is the effect limited to the Cognitive realm, or does it extend to the Spiritual and mask Investiture as well (similar to a coppercloud)?

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1 hour ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

Another interesting idea--could it mask someone from an Awakener's Lifesense?

That's interesting. When you put it that way, I feel like it's something we've seen Vasher do before.

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1 minute ago, djammmer said:

That's interesting. When you put it that way, I feel like it's something we've seen Vasher do before.

You mean 

Spoiler

masking his divine breath? Or something else?

 

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