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On 16/11/2016 at 8:43 PM, Yata said:

@Ari yes you are right in your interpretation. I simply didn't call it Bavadinium to not create a new uncanon name, because for example we have no proofs Bavadin is still the Autonomy's vessel (new vessel or splintered shard....the naming based on the Vessel is nice but may be a bit confused).

Well, the naming scheme seems to be (Initial Vessel) + "ium," with some minor variations to allow for terminating vowels, so Bavidinium is pretty likely to be the name of any God Metal made of Autonomy's power. The only thing that's broken that trend to date has been that what we presume is the alloy of Atium and Lerusium (although I suppose it could be its own metal...) is called Harmonium rather than Sazedium.

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5 hours ago, Ari said:

Well, the naming scheme seems to be (Initial Vessel) + "ium," with some minor variations to allow for terminating vowels, so Bavidinium is pretty likely to be the name of any God Metal made of Autonomy's power. The only thing that's broken that trend to date has been that what we presume is the alloy of Atium and Lerusium (although I suppose it could be its own metal...) is called Harmonium rather than Sazedium.

Well not really, the name is created as the "godmetal is known" therefore in the case of Scadrial we have Lerasium and Atium, but for example if Endowment's Vessel was replaced and just then for some reason He/she creates a godmetal....it would be called as the new Vessel I presume.

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A lot of people have theorized Trell=Odium in the past.

And the theory can't be immediately discounted by any means. We don't know of any other intact evil shards yet, and that alone makes Odium a possible candidate.

Plus there's the whole red thing.

 

But we really can't conclude with any confidence that Trell is Odium.

Yes we don't know about any other intact evil shards, but with 16 total its not unreasonable that others exist.

As for the red glow... Firemarks also glow red. Should we assume that firemarks are evil artifacts?

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On 11/21/2016 at 2:24 PM, Drake Marshall said:

As for the red glow... Firemarks also glow red. Should we assume that firemarks are evil artifacts?

No, but that is not the same because we are talking about the singes surrounding Splinters. As far as we know, Stormlight gives off a white light that is colored by the gem stone that holds them. Firemarks are just a red filter on the white light stormlight.

 

However you are right that we cannot know for sure, this is just a theory based on my observations. 

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I am just pointing out that there are multiple possible sources of red light. Maybe Trell's servants' eyes glow red for more mundane reasons. I will also note that there are more shards of adolnasium than colors on the color wheel...

I'm not saying Trell can't be Odium. It's a very real possibility. I just want to bring up the reasonable doubts as well.

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Quote

QUESTION

Is there any connection between Odium and Trell? 

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Brandon hems and haws for a moment.] Um…yes, there is some connection. That’s a question where if you understood it then great, if you didn’t then don’t worry.

(Source)

I don't remember seeing this WoB before, but it's from awhile ago.  I think this gives us a more definite answer that there is definitely at connection between Trell and Odium, even if Trell is not Odium.

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8 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I don't remember seeing this WoB before, but it's from awhile ago.  I think this gives us a more definite answer that there is definitely at connection between Trell and Odium, even if Trell is not Odium.

Eh, that's one of those basically-RAFOs where the question is so broad the answer really doesn't mean anything. Odium's a Shard, Trell's a Shard, so they're both connected through once being part of Adonalsium. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

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4 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Eh, that's one of those basically-RAFOs where the question is so broad the answer really doesn't mean anything. Odium's a Shard, Trell's a Shard, so they're both connected through once being part of Adonalsium. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Do we have explicit confirmation that Trell is a shard?  I think most would agree it is, but I don't know that we could say for sure that it's something separate from Odium, that was also at one point a part of Adonalsium.

Curses ambiguity!

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12 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Do we have explicit confirmation that Trell is a shard?  I think most would agree it is, but I don't know that we could say for sure that it's something separate from Odium, that was also at one point a part of Adonalsium.

Curses ambiguity!

Right, that's the whole point. Asking if there's any connection doesn't give enough clarification. (I don't think we have a quote saying that Trell is a Shard, but there's a recent book signing telling us that Wax has seen the influence of a Shard not native to Scadrial.)

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It is true that Sanderson's answer was deliberately vague on that count. We can't really eliminate any possibilities at all with that answer.

However. The way he said it makes me consider a new possibility. What if Trell was not Odium, but the thing we call Trell is something Odium may have caused?

I reach the conclusion that Trell is not Odium but that the thing we call Trell is likely one or more shards that Odium manipulated into attacking Harmony.

Why is Odium behind it? I am supposing Odium to be responsible for Trell because Odium is such an obvious enemy for Harmony. In my estimation, Sazed and Rayse are the two most powerful people in the cosmere. Their intents have little to no overlap. Conflict is inevitable, and since Odium was aware of Harmony but Harmony was unaware of Odium, Rayse gets the first move. Trell's activity would be that first move.

Edited by Drake Marshall
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On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎25 at 1:15 PM, Drake Marshall said:

It is true that Sanderson's answer was deliberately vague on that count. We can't really eliminate any possibilities at all with that answer.

However. The way he said it makes me consider a new possibility. What if Trell was not Odium, but the thing we call Trell is something Odium may have caused?

I reach the conclusion that Trell is not Odium but that the thing we call Trell is likely one or more shards that Odium manipulated into attacking Harmony.

Why is Odium behind it? I am supposing Odium to be responsible for Trell because Odium is such an obvious enemy for Harmony. In my estimation, Sazed and Rayse are the two most powerful people in the cosmere. Their intents have little to no overlap. Conflict is inevitable, and since Odium was aware of Harmony but Harmony was unaware of Odium, Rayse gets the first move. Trell's activity would be that first move.

I feel like the spike Paalm, AKA Bleeder, in Shadows of Self was using is from Sel. What if a sample of Soulstone was formed into a spike? The similarities in their descriptions are quite marked with soulstone being white with red patches throughout, and the spike being silvery with a red cast, and what looks to be "rust" spots. The other aspect that makes it seem unlikely to me that Odium is Trell is the proximity of the Ire...although we do not know how close they are during this particular era, they were at one point very close. My particular theory is that the "faceless immortal" at the end of BoM is actually a Skaze as seen on Scadrial

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17 minutes ago, dashardie said:

I feel like the spike Paalm, AKA Bleeder, in Shadows of Self was using is from Sel. What if a sample of Soulstone was formed into a spike? The similarities in their descriptions are quite marked with soulstone being white with red patches throughout, and the spike being silvery with a red cast, and what looks to be "rust" spots. The other aspect that makes it seem unlikely to me that Odium is Trell is the proximity of the Ire...although we do not know how close they are during this particular era, they were at one point very close. My particular theory is that the "faceless immortal" at the end of BoM is actually a Skaze as seen on Scadrial

See I can actually go along with that theory. I still think Brandon dropping Bavadins name so soon after SoS, and bleeders weird god metal spike together is a red herring. Plus, he said the spike was from a shard we've seen before(I think,correct me if Im wrong), and we've never seen Bav.

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2 hours ago, dashardie said:

I feel like the spike Paalm, AKA Bleeder, in Shadows of Self was using is from Sel. What if a sample of Soulstone was formed into a spike? The similarities in their descriptions are quite marked with soulstone being white with red patches throughout, and the spike being silvery with a red cast, and what looks to be "rust" spots. The other aspect that makes it seem unlikely to me that Odium is Trell is the proximity of the Ire...although we do not know how close they are during this particular era, they were at one point very close. My particular theory is that the "faceless immortal" at the end of BoM is actually a Skaze as seen on Scadrial

Soulstone isn't metal though, so I don't see how you could make it into a hemalurgic spike. Besides, it has been confirmed that the spikes are metal and from a shard.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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4 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

See I can actually go along with that theory. I still think Brandon dropping Bavadins name so soon after SoS, and bleeders weird god metal spike together is a red herring. Plus, he said the spike was from a shard we've seen before(I think,correct me if Im wrong), and we've never seen Bav.

Yes, you're right that he said it's from a shard we've seen before, and this was before White Sand (in graphic novel form) came out. I don't think we can consider the prose format canon unless we've heard otherwise.

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Soulstone isn't metal though, so I don't see how you could make it into a hemalurgic spike. Besides, it has been confirmed that the spikes are metal and from a shard.

True, but it is taken from rocks that fell from the sky, and are worshipped, or were, by Shai's people - sounds like meteorites, which typically contain lots of metal; I feel that if one were to carve soulstone into the shape of a spike, and then burn it as though creating a stamp to harden it, that would work. I don't think we know enough about soulstone to say one way or another without further WoBs - I just think it works well, given the descriptions of both, although I'm certainly not set :ph34r: (heh) in the theory

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Soulstone is not a metal. A hemalurgic spike has to be a metal. And not just any metal, but one of the sixteen, or a god metal.

Trellium is not soulstone. However. Trellium and soustone might be very closely related. When a shard invests on a planet, their power can take different shapes, depending on the planet... If soulstone was the product of a shard on Sel, Trellium may well be the product of the same shard investing on Scadrial. It could just be the metal version of soulstone that was created when the shard associated with soulstone started investing in Scadrial.

I'm not sure I buy it, but... It's a possibility. And if soulstone and trellium are related, I would guess that my above explanation is how they are related.

If the whole trellium-soulstone speculation is true, however... We still need to ask the question, "so which shard is that?"

Dominion and devotion are splintered shards known to be on Sel. Also, since soulstone falls from the sky, it might actually be from a third shard, but I highly doubt it because I think you would still have to invest on Sel to make a substance that can be used in Sellish magics.

My guess is that, if the shard is from Sel, it's Dominion, because the set's agenda is much more closely linked with dominion than with devotion. How any of this works with a splintered shard? That is an excellent question.

 

In conclusion:

Prime candidates for being Trell:

-Odium

-Autonomy

-Dominion

-Some mixture of the above

-A piece of one of the above

-???

 

In further conclusion:

We really don't know anything yet. We are reading so much into these details... I am looking forward to the next mistborn novel.

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16 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

See I can actually go along with that theory. I still think Brandon dropping Bavadins name so soon after SoS, and bleeders weird god metal spike together is a red herring. Plus, he said the spike was from a shard we've seen before(I think,correct me if Im wrong), and we've never seen Bav.

 

11 hours ago, dashardie said:

Yes, you're right that he said it's from a shard we've seen before, and this was before White Sand (in graphic novel form) came out. I don't think we can consider the prose format canon unless we've heard otherwise.

The spike's metal is from a Shard we know. We had not seen Autonomy, but we did know of her, so Bavadin is not ruled out as a candidate.

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Given some new information about Bavadin and how much she seems to play around with peoples' perceptions to manipulate them (specifically, the WoB about how she has multiple personas and there have been pantheons where every member was actually her).....now I'd like to propose that if Trell is her (as is likely), she might see some benefit to making people within the cosmere believe that its Odium interfering on Scadrial, not her. So even though earlier I was arguing that red eyes might simply be the nature of corrupting Shard influence within the cosmere, and is how that would manifest regardless of what Shard was doing the corrupting, now I'm thinking it could actually be particular to Odium, and Bavadin might deliberately mimic certain indicators of his presence to make her influence look like his.

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19 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

Given some new information about Bavadin and how much she seems to play around with peoples' perceptions to manipulate them (specifically, the WoB about how she has multiple personas and there have been pantheons where every member was actually her).....now I'd like to propose that if Trell is her (as is likely), she might see some benefit to making people within the cosmere believe that its Odium interfering on Scadrial, not her. So even though earlier I was arguing that red eyes might simply be the nature of corrupting Shard influence within the cosmere, and is how that would manifest regardless of what Shard was doing the corrupting, now I'm thinking it could actually be particular to Odium, and Bavadin might deliberately mimic certain indicators of his presence to make her influence look like his.

This is a VERY interesting idea.  Using red eyes...influencing Miles' strange "death rattle" like final comments...I could see turning other Shardic powers against Odium as a possible motive of Autonomy's interference.

It's possible we've been thinking of Autonomy as something positive (or neutral), but what if Autonomy's shardic intent is actually to prevent any other power in the cosmere from interfering with its own autonomy?  In this light, it makes Odium a major threat, as he would be unlikely to leave something as powerful as Autonomy alone forever.

Maybe trying to mislead Harmony into a battle with Odium is Autonomy's way of self-preservation?  Odium's splintering of Devotion and Dominion (two Vessels, possibly the fusion of two shards, who were unified together) was a similar ploy - Autonomy could have seen the unified power of two shards working together as a threat to its own autonomous place in the cosmere.

Upvote for you! =)

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