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"You could tell them from the way they walked... Of course the softly glowing red eyes were another sign."

-The Bands of Mourning, pg 433

This is the reference to the first of the "other" Kandra. This was the most impressive part for me in the end of BoM. (Well one of three) This is tied directly to the red haze Wax observed encircling Scadrial. Harmony said it was the presence of something else, a power from beyond the planet. Now I know there is speculation that this is Odium, and I think I can confirm it. We know the void spren are of Odium. They are what make the Thunderclast and what is needed to create storm-form in the Parshendi. These forces have been described as red spren moving like lightning. The also turned the Parshendi's eyes red.

Some may see this as a generalization, but there is too much consistency here. In the Song of Secrets they sing:

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,
Of one who seeks to take control,
Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.
They are his spren, his gift, his price.
But the nightforms speak of future life...

So these spren are Splinters of Odium. That makes sense. What is interesting is that he made his splinters spren. Until now, the Shards of the various worlds each have different forms of magic, splinters, and goals. However Odium seems to be mimicking Cultivation and Honor as he seeks to destroy them and all that they created. Upon reflection this seemed odd to me.

Then I remembered the red eyes

The Set have their own Kandra, which means they are not of Harmony. Yet here it is again, it seems that someone is mimicking the tools and followers of Harmony. There are these Void Kandra and the Set has somehow learned about Hemalurgy, and knows how to use it. Remember the dog-men who chased Wax in Shadows of Self? They were new unknown creations. The Lord Ruler experimented with Hemalurgy for 1000 years, and he couldn't make anything more than he had created during his ascension. These things are made from something who understands Hemalurgy like Ruin did and it (probably) isn't Harmony. 

Now the other thought is that this could be another Shard. Well that is possible, and if that's the case then we cannot know more until the next book comes out. However I hope you see that the parallels between Trell on Scadrial and Odium on Roshar are pretty apparent.

So I think this is Odium's plan. He creates mimics who use twisted versions of a shard's power, using the powers and investiture of his foes. This somehow gives him an advantage and might be the key to a shards destruction, using their own power against them somehow. 

I doubt I was the first one to think about this, but i couldn't see anything posted on this in my search. Even so, the possibilities are endless. I wonder if Scadrial is about to face its first Desolation...

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This has been discussed before. While the red eyes and mist are a fair indication of odium's presence, there are too many unknowns to say for certain. The conclusion of SA part 1 and the Lost Metal will definitely advance the theory. Hard to say overall.

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I believe the Shadows in SfSiFoH (that's a long acronym) have red eyes when they become enraged, too, correct? We don't know if there's a connection to Odium there, but since Threnody doesn't have a Shard, it doesn't seem particularly likely to me. I think the red eyes could come from a number of possible sources.

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6 hours ago, Jondesu said:

I believe the Shadows in SfSiFoH (that's a long acronym) have red eyes when they become enraged, too, correct? We don't know if there's a connection to Odium there, but since Threnody doesn't have a Shard, it doesn't seem particularly likely to me. I think the red eyes could come from a number of possible sources.

I think there's a WoB where someone asked Brandon if Odium caused the big accident or whatever it was on Threnody, and he grinned and refused to say anything. So, I believe that Threnody's Shard was destroyed by Odium and that caused the accident.

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The red eyes do seem to suggest Odium, but the Set's motives seem more Dominion-ish.

I'm not even sure there's a Shard posing as Trell. We know the metal is "from a Shard we know", but that's not quite the same thing as Trell being a Shard we know - could be the Set's real leaders have gotten some Dor power to Scadrial and condensed it as a metal.

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8 hours ago, JUQ said:

I think there's a WoB where someone asked Brandon if Odium caused the big accident or whatever it was on Threnody, and he grinned and refused to say anything. So, I believe that Threnody's Shard was destroyed by Odium and that caused the accident.

Threnody doesn't have a shard on it though. Even if Odium splintered a shard there, it would still be considered to have a shard. Therefore, we know that there are no shards on Threnody, splintered or unsplintered. Odium couldn't have splintered the shard then moved it, because he's unwilling to pick up another shard and risk corrupting his intent.

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Threnody doesn't have a shard on it though. Even if Odium splintered a shard there, it would still be considered to have a shard. Therefore, we know that there are no shards on Threnody, splintered or unsplintered. Odium couldn't have splintered the shard then moved it, because he's unwilling to pick up another shard and risk corrupting his intent.

I still think the Threnodites moved to Threnody through the CR after Odium splintered the Shard on whatever world they came from, and the Investiture they used for the big move is plugging up the CR now/making the Shades phenomenon happen. Can't wait for Khriss' intro in AU, since Brandon hinted that it'll give us some answers about that when I told him my theory.

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26 minutes ago, PallonianFire said:

I still think the Threnodites moved to Threnody through the CR after Odium splintered the Shard on whatever world they came from, and the Investiture they used for the big move is plugging up the CR now/making the Shades phenomenon happen. Can't wait for Khriss' intro in AU, since Brandon hinted that it'll give us some answers about that when I told him my theory.

Ah, so you meant you thought that the original Threnody had a shard which Odium shattered. By apologies. I thought you were referring to the current Threnody.

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Threnody doesn't have a shard on it though. Even if Odium splintered a shard there, it would still be considered to have a shard. Therefore, we know that there are no shards on Threnody, splintered or unsplintered. Odium couldn't have splintered the shard then moved it, because he's unwilling to pick up another shard and risk corrupting his intent.

The WoB doesn't state that there was never a shard on Threnody. It's possible that Threnody previously housed the shard who knows what Odium is up to and has booked it somewhere else. (What people have taken to calling the Survival shard.) If this is the case in a roundabout way Odium might be responsible for whatever happened to Threnody's Shades. 

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9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Ah, so you meant you thought that the original Threnody had a shard which Odium shattered. By apologies. I thought you were referring to the current Threnody.

I don't know what world they came from, but I don't think it was called Threnody. I think they named Threnody in memorial of the Shard that Odium splintered on their old world (you can see more on this in the theory highlighted in my sig: "Threnody was a Shard"). There is an outside possibility that it happened on Threnody, but I doubt it. We do have this, though:

 

Quote

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what happens when Shards die?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After they dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive shadow". For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive shadow, and he's semi sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody

 

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1 hour ago, theuntaintedchild said:

The WoB doesn't state that there was never a shard on Threnody. It's possible that Threnody previously housed the shard who knows what Odium is up to and has booked it somewhere else. (What people have taken to calling the Survival shard.) If this is the case in a roundabout way Odium might be responsible for whatever happened to Threnody's Shades. 

True, but Brandon's description of Minor Shardworlds seems to imply that Threnody was just created with some ambient investiture giving rise to shades. Also, in another one, he said that what is occurring on Threnody is non-shard based. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Okay, so are you revising your initial statement that Odium destroyed a shard on Threnody, or do you think that there was a shard on Threnody that Odium destroyed and a shard on the old world which was also destroyed by Odium? Sorry, but I'm a bit confused because it looks like you swapped stances. 

You might want to double-check who you're responding to. @PallonianFire has been consistent in suggesting that a Shard was splintered on another world. It looks like @JUQ was the one who thought Odium may have splintered a Shard on Threnody. (Unless this is carrying on a convo from outside this thread.)

I've been calling this hypothetical world "Homeworld" (since the settlers' name for where they came from was Homeland). There are two phenomena that may not be directly connected: the destruction of Homeworld, and the presence of the Shades on Threnody. They could both be caused by Odium, although I think the Shades are more of a natural phenomenon, since there is no Shard Invested on Threnody. (I personally don't think Odium killed Homeworld's Shard, but only because I don't think that he is the red haze that Saze is fighting off.)

Edited by Pagerunner
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2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

You might want to double-check who you're responding to. @PallonianFire has been consistent in suggesting that a Shard was splintered on another world. It looks like @JUQ was the one who thought Odium may have splintered a Shard on Threnody. (Unless this is carrying on a convo from outside this thread.)

I've been calling this hypothetical world "Homeworld" (since the settlers' name for where they came from was Homeland). There are two phenomena that may not be directly connected: the destruction of Homeworld, and the presence of the Shades on Threnody. They could both be caused by Odium, although I think the Shades are more of a natural phenomenon, since there is no Shard Invested on Threnody. (I personally don't think Odium killed Homeworld's Shard, but only because I don't think that he is the red haze that Saze is fighting off.)

Oh thanks for that. I'll fix my responses. Got confused because Pallonian Fire randomly pick up my thread of conversation.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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57 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Got confused because Pallonian Fire randomly pick up my thread of conversation.

Haha sorry. I'm incapable of sitting aside when there's a good Threnody conversation going on.

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You guys do realize that the red haze isnt actually there, right? Its was meant as a visual representation so Wax could grasp the severity of the situation. Red is also used as a sign in the Cosmere that bad stuff is/has happened there. There is a WoB on it somewhere, but Im terrible at searching for them.

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37 minutes ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

You guys do realize that the red haze isnt actually there, right? Its was meant as a visual representation so Wax could grasp the severity of the situation. Red is also used as a sign in the Cosmere that bad stuff is/has happened there. There is a WoB on it somewhere, but Im terrible at searching for them.

Here's the text from the book:

Quote

The light ahead suddenly rolled outward, and Wax found that they'd been rounding a

planet. They stood high above it, and had stepped from darkness into sunlight, which let Wax see the world below, bathed in a calm, cool light.

Beyond that hung a haze of red. All around, pressing in upon the world. He could feel it choking him, a miasma of dread and destruction.

"Perhaps," Harmony said softly, "I have already done just as you suggest. You do not see it, because the worst never reaches you."

"What is it?" Wax asked, trying to take in that vast redness. It beat inward, but he could see something, a thin strip of light - like a bubble around the world - stopping it."A representation," Harmony said. "A crude one, perhaps."

Quote

"And when I hold back, staying my hand from protecting those below," Harmony said, "I must do it out of trust in what people can do on their own." He glanced towards the red haze. "And because I have other problems to occupy me."

"You didn't tell me what it was," Wax said.

"That is because I do not know."

"That... frightens me."

Harmony looked to him. "It should.

 

Yes, it's a representation, but there's something there, something so powerful that Harmony is literally fighting to keep it away from his world. The only concrete thing we've seen in the books is a crude representation, the Red Haze, and Marasi's deduction that there is another Shard named Trell behind Bleeder's attacks from last book. Sazed has an enemy; he might not know about the other Shards, yet, so it could be Odium or Autonomy. But his vision to Wax, he designed it purposely, and he included details like it being red and surrounding the planet. It's not a metaphor for how he's protecting them from the worst of life. Something wants to destroy Scadrial.

Edited by Pagerunner
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1 hour ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

You guys do realize that the red haze isnt actually there, right? Its was meant as a visual representation so Wax could grasp the severity of the situation. Red is also used as a sign in the Cosmere that bad stuff is/has happened there. There is a WoB on it somewhere, but Im terrible at searching for them.

 

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Yes, it's a representation, but there's something there, something so powerful that Harmony is literally fighting to keep it away from his world. The only concrete thing we've seen in the books is a crude representation, the Red Haze, and Marasi's deduction that there is another Shard named Trell behind Bleeder's attacks from last book. Sazed has an enemy; he might not know about the other Shards, yet, so it could be Odium or Autonomy. But his vision to Wax, he designed it purposely, and he included details like it being red and surrounding the planet. It's not a metaphor for how he's protecting them from the worst of life. Something wants to destroy Scadrial.

I think perhaps what @The Ninja Yodeler was suggesting is that the fact that it's red is due to Sazed choosing to depict it that way, not anything inherent about that force itself. That would seem to reduce the chances that we'd find a connection behind the red haze and other red things representing Shards (correct me if I'm wrong, Ninja).

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2 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

You guys do realize that the red haze isnt actually there, right? Its was meant as a visual representation so Wax could grasp the severity of the situation. Red is also used as a sign in the Cosmere that bad stuff is/has happened there. There is a WoB on it somewhere, but Im terrible at searching for them.

You are right about the red haze, and how it was just a representation. However the eyes are still the main tell here for this theory. 

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7 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

I still think the Threnodites moved to Threnody through the CR after Odium splintered the Shard on whatever world they came from, and the Investiture they used for the big move is plugging up the CR now/making the Shades phenomenon happen. Can't wait for Khriss' intro in AU, since Brandon hinted that it'll give us some answers about that when I told him my theory.

Might I ask your reasoning for thinking this? When Brandon described the world, he specifically described the Homeland and Hell as being different continents and said that the people moved across the ocean from one to the other by ship, which makes me seriously doubt this.

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2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Here's the text from the book:

 

Yes, it's a representation, but there's something there, something so powerful that Harmony is literally fighting to keep it away from his world. The only concrete thing we've seen in the books is a crude representation, the Red Haze, and Marasi's deduction that there is another Shard named Trell behind Bleeder's attacks from last book. Sazed has an enemy; he might not know about the other Shards, yet, so it could be Odium or Autonomy. But his vision to Wax, he designed it purposely, and he included details like it being red and surrounding the planet. It's not a metaphor for how he's protecting them from the worst of life. Something wants to destroy Scadrial.

I'm curious. How likely do you think it is that Autonomy would oppose Harmony? 

The way I see it there should be little conflict, Harmony is pretty opposed to intervention and Autonomy should be fine with that. 

I could get Autonomy acting against Ruin, Dominion, Odium or even Endowment... but yeah. 

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33 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

I'm curious. How likely do you think it is that Autonomy would oppose Harmony? 

The way I see it there should be little conflict, Harmony is pretty opposed to intervention and Autonomy should be fine with that. 

I could get Autonomy acting against Ruin, Dominion, Odium or even Endowment... but yeah. 

Autonomy is theorized (generally, not by me necessarily) to be the opposing force to Harmony for two main reasons. Firstly, the unknown metal Bleeder had was of a known shard, and Autonomy is the only other shard which we know where it could be possible. Secondly, the metal gave Bleeder autonomy, the ability to act without Harmony's interference. There are other points, which I think can be found if you check the forum.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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8 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Autonomy is theorized (generally, not by me necessarily) to be the opposing force to Harmony for two main reasons. Firstly, the unknown metal Bleeder had was of a known shard, and Autonomy is the only other shard which we know where it could be possible. Secondly, the metal gave Bleeder autonomy, the ability to act without Harmony's interference. There are other points, which I think can be found if you check the forum.

I'm just thinking of this now, but it does seem from our knowledge of Hemalurgy and other magic systems that the effect granted by a type of magic (in this case, Bleeder's spike) doesn't necessarily have any connection to the Intent of the Shard. A spike made of Trellium could be granting invisibility from Harmony not because it's of Autonomy, but simply because it's a hack, a not-inherent use of Hemalurgy in the first place (Sazed can detect Hemalurgic spikes, and control the spiked individuals depending on the number of spikes, because he holds the Shard whose Investiture created Hemalurgy, but if another Shard's metal is used for Hemalurgy, it could inherently not give him the same access). 

Bleeder's actions could also just as easily be of Odium, or of Dominion or Devotion, twisted into something awful, but I suspect her actions had little to do with a Shard's Intent either. She's a tool, manipulated into fighting Harmony, but an insane one.

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1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

I'm just thinking of this now, but it does seem from our knowledge of Hemalurgy and other magic systems that the effect granted by a type of magic (in this case, Bleeder's spike) doesn't necessarily have any connection to the Intent of the Shard. A spike made of Trellium could be granting invisibility from Harmony not because it's of Autonomy, but simply because it's a hack, a not-inherent use of Hemalurgy in the first place (Sazed can detect Hemalurgic spikes, and control the spiked individuals depending on the number of spikes, because he holds the Shard whose Investiture created Hemalurgy, but if another Shard's metal is used for Hemalurgy, it could inherently not give him the same access). 

Bleeder's actions could also just as easily be of Odium, or of Dominion or Devotion, twisted into something awful, but I suspect her actions had little to do with a Shard's Intent either. She's a tool, manipulated into fighting Harmony, but an insane one.

Possibly. That's a pretty fair assumption. I don't have much opinion on the matter, I was just answering the question of why people thought that Trell was Autonomy.

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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Autonomy is theorized (generally, not by me necessarily) to be the opposing force to Harmony for two main reasons. Firstly, the unknown metal Bleeder had was of a known shard, and Autonomy is the only other shard which we know where it could be possible.

Yeah, this is the normal line of thought. But if a Shard's investiture can be separated from its direct control (and we know it can, because atium) then the possibilities open up, because the Shard from whom the metal is formed doesn't need to actually be directing events with the Set. That makes Dominion/the Dor or Odium possibilities, who could otherwise be ruled out since they're dead and imprisoned respectively. (Devotion and Endowment don't seem to fit Intent-wise.)

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure the power of a single Shard would be such an effort for Harmony to hold back. That makes me think the Dor, the only other two-Shard combo we know, is involved.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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27 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, this is the normal line of thought. But if a Shard's investiture can be separated from its direct control (and we know it can, because atium) then the possibilities open up, because the Shard from whom the metal is formed doesn't need to actually be directing events with the Set. That makes Dominion/the Dor or Odium possibilities, who could otherwise be ruled out since they're dead and imprisoned respectively. (Devotion and Endowment don't seem to fit Intent-wise.)

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure the power of a single Shard would be such an effort for Harmony to hold back. That makes me think the Dor, the only other two-Shard combo we know, is involved.

Possibly, though Harmony is still a novice at this point so it's possible that a shardholder who has been holding a shard since the Shattering might have a better understanding of how to use the powers, and outmaneuver him. 

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