The Recreance, Yet Again

[cometaryorbit]

On 12/17/2016 at 4:15 AM, FiveLate said:

By this post...well the end part at least...

If honor was sacrificing others to protect his self interests, I think that the internal conflicts alone would have caused him to splinter/shatter himself with no extra effort from Odium.

I don't know if splintering really works that way, but I agree that Honor wouldn't/couldn't do that... if he thought of what he was doing that way. But Shards can get 'warped', and we don't know how the Heralds and KR were set up way back when. If the early KR, or the leaders of humanity united under the Heralds, swore some oath intending to bind their descendants too, I could see Honor (who apparently is all about oaths) believing KR of that era, or all humans, were still bound by it despite a hundred-plus generations passing.

On 12/22/2016 at 0:45 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Most of that is theory though. All that is confirmed is that the spren which allow for the creation of KRs are formed from a mixture of Honor and Cultivation investiture. We don't know whether they collaborated to intentionally create the KRs, or the Heralds, and since the Oathpact is only between the Heralds and Honor, I'm not seeing how it is thought that Cultivation had any part in the Heralds. 

I don't think the Shards were directly involved in creating the KRs - Syl makes it sound like that was the spren's idea. (Though given that spren are basically pieces of the Shards... I'm not sure how distinct honorspren were from Honor when Honor was a live unSplintered entity.)

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think the Shards were directly involved in creating the KRs - Syl makes it sound like that was the spren's idea. (Though given that spren are basically pieces of the Shards... I'm not sure how distinct honorspren were from Honor when Honor was a live unSplintered entity.)

Yes. My opinion is that the spren did it without any motivation from either shard. 

[bcsouza19]

Reading this thread, I had an idea about the Radiants thinking Honor betrayed them: we've seen Shards encouraging/goading humans to behave along the lines of their intents, and this might be a problem with that theory.

Consider:

Ruin repeatedly told Gemmel and Zane to kill everyone in sight, except in Zane's case Vin, who was crucial to Ruin's plan. Incidentally, this might support the theory that a Vessel is able to temper his Shard's immediate inclinations, when there's an endgame that fits even more with the Shard's intent. Secret History spoiler ahead, just to be safe:

 

But then I don't know why Preservation would find it difficult to stab Elend and needed Kelsier's help, unless his Futuresight told him Kelsier needed to be there.

Ruin also controlled the Inquisitors to kill around with a happy face, and gloated to Vin that everything she did actually helped him. He was wrong, but of course he wouldn't even consider the possibility of failing.

Odium influences a lot of people, Shallan's father being a prime example. The Thrill is another way we see this.

Returned are supposed to give their Divine Breath to someone else, and you can only become a powerful Awakener if you convince other people to give you their Breaths; Awakening objects requires giving said Breaths to the object. Nightblood outright takes/steals Breath, though; this looks like an inconsistency.

Feel free to point out more examples

Anyway, my point is this. If Honor was throwing the Radiants into the meat grinder without them knowing it, then yeah, that was most likely dishonorable. But what if Honor just expected them to make the choice by themselves, and jump willingly into the meat grinder to save both the Rosharan people from Voidbringers (since we know there were Desolations before the Oathpact), and to save Cultivation from Odium?

Because that certainly would have been a very honorable thing for the Radiants to do, and it would fit nicely with the pattern of Shards nudging people towards their intent. Assuming that's true, I have no idea why the Radiants just got up and left at the Recreance; that would have been dishonorable. I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

Edited January 2, 2017 by bcsouza19
Small rewording; doesn't really change what I want to say

[Yata]

I think a Shard's intent/mandate works more like a limiter than a compulsion to do something. So you can't do something aganist it but you could avoid to act as the mandate/intent want.

So to say, Preservation could avoid to save someone, but He can't actually kill someone. Of course I talk of a Vessel who held the Power soo long to be completely changed by the Intent. A fresh Vessel would have still his/her mindset also if the power may refure to perfore certain tasks

[bcsouza19]

It might work both as a boundary and a compulsion. Following on Yata's example, Ruin couldn't save anyone, but he didn't want to kill Vin, either. Note that this didn't stop him from having a compulsion to destroy Scadrial. Actually, I think it is both a boundary and a compulsion: Sazed knows there is a problem, but he can't/won't interfere too closely. The limit and compulsion of Harmony, all together.

Also, I was focusing less on Cosmere inner workings, and more on themes. But I admit that could go both ways, and Sazed is once again the example: he kept Wax in the dark about Bleeder, and we know how well that turned out when it comes to Wax and Sazed cooperating. We might still see a rerun of this theme with the Radiants, so take my previous post with a grain of salt.

[sm1550law]

On 12/22/2016 at 1:45 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Most of that is theory though. All that is confirmed is that the spren which allow for the creation of KRs are formed from a mixture of Honor and Cultivation investiture. We don't know whether they collaborated to intentionally create the KRs, or the Heralds, and since the Oathpact is only between the Heralds and Honor, I'm not seeing how it is thought that Cultivation had any part in the Heralds. 

So with it known that the spren which allow for the creation of the Radiants are some combination of Cultivation and Honor, wouldn't Cultivation have had to intentionally collaborated with Honor to create the Honorblades?

While the spren appear to have acted without explicit orders from the Shards to create the Radiants, the Honorblades are intentional constructs given by Honor to the Heralds. As the powers granted by the spren bonds mimic what was granted to the Heralds, wouldn't it stand to reason that Honor would have required Cultivation to assist in creating the Honorblades since he is not the sole source of the granted powers?

[Spoolofwhool]

39 minutes ago, sm1550law said:

So with it known that the spren which allow for the creation of the Radiants are some combination of Cultivation and Honor, wouldn't Cultivation have had to intentionally collaborated with Honor to create the Honorblades?

While the spren appear to have acted without explicit orders from the Shards to create the Radiants, the Honorblades are intentional constructs given by Honor to the Heralds. As the powers granted by the spren bonds mimic what was granted to the Heralds, wouldn't it stand to reason that Honor would have required Cultivation to assist in creating the Honorblades since he is not the sole source of the granted powers?

No, that doesn't follow at all. Just because it takes the Investiture of multiple shards to create a manifestation I don't see why it would take the Investiture of multiple shards to change someone's spiritweb to use that power. Surgebinding doesn't require a connection to the creating shards, unlike allomancy for instance, so no new connections need to be made. In the same vein, the spren aren't acting as conduits. They're just changing the spiritweb of those Nahel bonded to those them, like how spren change the spiritweb of any entity bonded to them, just that in this case it is granting them surgebinding powers, not enhanced size or anything. 

The manifestation of investiture surgebinding is not a result of Honor and Cultivation, though actually I still think it's just Honor, investing into people as you seem to think, but rather as a result of the shard(s) investing into Roshar. It enabled the existence of the surgebinding to occur, just like how the Investiture of Ruin into Scadrial enabled the existence of hemalurgy in the Cosmere, independent of his investiture.

[sm1550law]

I think I understand what you are saying, but I think we've been told pretty clearly the opposite. The spren are tiny splinters of the Shards. I don't remember an explicit WoB on that (just Syl calling herself a piece of a god) and the WoB stating that the Orders of Radiants all gain powers from spren that are some portion Honor and some portion Cultivation. Some are more Honor than Cultivation, but they are all some combination of the two. How is it that a connection to the Shards is unnecessary when in fact a connection to a spren is necessary? There are no surgebinders without spren, except for people using Honorblades. It looks like that follows pretty clearly.

[Spoolofwhool]

A bond to a spren is necessary because they provide the change in the spiritweb which allows the KR to surgebind. Nothing has been stated that says that the change entails a connection to Honor or Cultivation, something which is different than a connection to pieces of them, as surgebinding appears to be a more net neutral system, meaning that they are not drawing power from some external source when they surgebind. I believe you could become a surgebinder using some other unconnected method if you figure out how to change your spiritweb in the required manner, perhaps using Lerasium. The argument that there are no surgebinders without spren doesn't really prove anything, as no one else has access to practical methods to change their spiritweb, other than perhaps using lerasium. In addition, the fact that they are called Honorblades, the Heralds of Honor and that the Oathpact was made between the Heralds and Honor only doesn't seem to indicate that Cultivation had any hand in their creation. Finally, Syl does state that the Honorblades were given by Honor, and are bits of his power. While she is not the best expert on the matter, she seems fairly aware of it. 

Most final point: I'd like to state that I'm more leaning towards surgebinding being just of Honor, versus of them both. 

[Just another guyn]

On 11/12/2016 at 0:10 PM, Landis963 said:

Assuming that "Intent creep" affected all the Shardvessels the way it did Leras, I don't believe Honor would have been capable of it.  (mitigating circumstances e.g. Preservation splitting off half his mind to make a prison for Ruin notwithstanding).  Which means Cultivation is the only remaining suspect.  (As I'm assuming that Odium can't backstab himself that way)

Note that hatred can include self hatred, and odium backstabbing himself and blaming honor would be a very interesting twist

[Spoolofwhool]

32 minutes ago, Just another guyn said:

Note that hatred can include self hatred, and odium backstabbing himself and blaming honor would be a very interesting twist

Shard intents don't twist them against themselves. Ruin didn't want to ruin himself and Preservation didn't preserve himself so I don't think Odium would hate himself. 

[Just another guyn]

16 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Shard intents don't twist them against themselves. Ruin didn't want to ruin himself and Preservation didn't preserve himself so I don't think Odium would hate himself. 

I'm pretty sure we have a WoB that odium hates himself. Preservation did try to preserve himself... he just wasn't successful. And in a way, ruin did ruin himself. As ati was a good person before taking up the shard, he was ruined, becoming the advocate of destroying everything (something most good people would disagree with) 

 

 

NounEdit

odium n ‎(genitive odiī);

1. a hated thing
2. hatred

Edited January 23, 2017 by Just another guyn

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Just another guyn said:

I'm pretty sure we have a WoB that odium hates himself. Preservation did try to preserve himself... he just wasn't successful. And in a way, ruin did ruin himself. As ati was a good person before taking up the shard, he was ruined, becoming the advocate of destroying everything (something most good people would disagree with) 

 

 

NounEdit

odium n ‎(genitive odiī);

1. a hated thing
2. hatred

Preservation destroyed his own mind, which is most definitely not preserving himself. Ruin didn't take the direct actions to ruin himself like he did Scadrial and had been trying to win the whole time, so I don't see where your argument is coming from. He ruined himself because of choices, not because he actually wished ruin on himself, which would be the case if his intent was actually be directed against himself as you claim. The ruin of the good man Ati was once again wasn't anything he intentionally did, it was the natural product if holding the shard Ruin. 

I couldn't find any WoB that Odium hates himself, only that he hated others and invoked hatred in others. 

Expanding further, we can see that Endowment doesn't seek to endow herself as at least one of her actions, the creation of Returned, is self-weakening.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[DustBringer94]

i do think there was some sort of perceived betrayal by either honor or the spren that lead to them abandoning their bonds. but who's to say that it wasn't odium that convinced them of this betrayal. if not directly then through the unmade. someone had to have convinced every order that they had been betrayed. and there had to have been some truth to it. being bonded with a spren and having that kind of relationship with them, surely the KR would have asked them for the truth. or maybe they thought that abandoning the bond would protect humanity (pure speculation) i just dont know how a whole organization who have spent hundreds of years protecting people would simply give up the ability to do so just like that.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DustBringer94
too many similar posts.

[Solarserpent]

I feel like there was a big hint when one of the Heralds shows up and is trying to kill anyone who is a surge-binder because he believes it will bring back the desolation. Perhaps the Heralds told the Knight Radiant that their bond is what is keeping the monsters around, and the best thing they can do is just go away. Or perhaps the Heralds decided to break the knight's some other way.

[ZenBossanova]

Apologies if this has been suggested, but perhaps the great secret that lead to the Recreance is that the same things that bind Odium on Braize, also bind deceased Radiants there. Perhaps the Dawnshards are trapped there as well, and they can't be retrieved without opening the prison. 

[Mason Wheeler]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned our best canonical interpretation Odium's Intent yet.

From the first Letter:

Quote

Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met. He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards.

From the second Letter:

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

The Intent of Odium is "the wrath of God," without "the virtues that give it context".  Calling his home "Damnation," then, seems to be completely on the mark; he's the Cosmere's Satan-figure, and his Intent is to turn the whole Cosmere into a living hell.

[LightSong77]

On 6/6/2017 at 5:11 PM, Solarserpent said:

I feel like there was a big hint when one of the Heralds shows up and is trying to kill anyone who is a surge-binder because he believes it will bring back the desolation. Perhaps the Heralds told the Knight Radiant that their bond is what is keeping the monsters around, and the best thing they can do is just go away. Or perhaps the Heralds decided to break the knight's some other way.

Following up on this idea, we know that Nalan is hunting down surgebinders because he believes that doing so will prevent another Desolation from occurring.  The Knights Radiant were always led to believe that their purpose was to protect humanity from the Desolations only to learn that their very existence is what was/is causing the Desolations to continue to occur.  This revelation is the betrayal which caused the KR to abandon their oaths.

While this may not seem consistent with the theory that the Desolations occur when one of the Heralds breaks from the torture while on Braize, if Nalan was made to believe the the presence of surgebinders on Roshar could cause a Desolation to occur, there is no reason to believe the KR couldn't be made to believe it too.

[Chinsukolo]

Maybe it's been mentioned else where and I haven't seen it. But one theory I've been considering reference the secret...

Maybe someone found the Heralds, discovered that they were alive and had quit.  I could see how the KR would feel betrayed by that and possibly end their oaths and walk away just as the Heralds had.

I can see how hiding that fact would allow it to be used again, since most of the populace believes the Heralds have moved on because they won, or will come back and save them for the final desolation.  To find out the Heralds quit and probably wont help, would likely be just as devastating again.

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

Maybe it's been mentioned else where and I haven't seen it. But one theory I've been considering reference the secret...

Maybe someone found the Heralds, discovered that they were alive and had quit.  I could see how the KR would feel betrayed by that and possibly end their oaths and walk away just as the Heralds had.

I can see how hiding that fact would allow it to be used again, since most of the populace believes the Heralds have moved on because they won, or will come back and save them for the final desolation.  To find out the Heralds quit and probably wont help, would likely be just as devastating again.

I could see betrayal being a factor, but I couldn't see it driving a universal decision to in turn betray both the people of Roshar, and the Spren that each Radiant held an intimate bond with. 

[Kira0147]

I like this theory, it has a nice twist to it, The shard followed some twisted interpretation of honor.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

On 7/27/2017 at 10:24 AM, Calderis said:

I could see betrayal being a factor, but I couldn't see it driving a universal decision to in turn betray both the people of Roshar, and the Spren that each Radiant held an intimate bond with. 

I'm not sure if this is what you are saying, but the problem I see with this is that you might see a couple KR leaving because they realized that the Heralds had betrayed them (or whatever you want to call it), but a mass, unified desertion of KR is too organised to be from something like that. I'm almost certain that the Heralds or other leaders among the KR orders the desertion.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

I'm not sure if this is what you are saying, but the problem I see with this is that you might see a couple KR leaving because they realized that the Heralds had betrayed them (or whatever you want to call it), but a mass, unified desertion of KR is too organised to be from something like that. I'm almost certain that the Heralds or other leaders among the KR orders the desertion.

That's exactly what I'm saying. A few KR saying "screw this, the Heralds lied, I'm out" sure. All of them? No way. 

The Heralds also shouldn't have been known to the Radiants at that time other than as historical figures. They left their blades. They weren't surgebinders any longer. I doubt they were interacting with the Knights at all. 

How would the Knights have discovered their betrayal? And why wouldn't they have shared it? 

[aemetha]

This is my first post here, so sorry if this has been raised before elsewhere.

I interpreted the death rattle of King Valam as being linked to the secret that caused the recreance.

"So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life..."

To me that sounds like Honor had an opportunity to stop Odium at cost of his own life, and chose not to. From the point of view of The Knights Radiant, why should they continue to fight in the name and tradition of Honor if he himself would not make the same sacrifices he requires of them?

Is that death rattle attributed to some other event I am not aware of? I had a look on the coppermind but couldn't see it attributed anywhere.

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, aemetha said:

Is that death rattle attributed to some other event I am not aware of?

Not yet. It happens too late into WoR to be attributed to anything except the "new ending" where Kal doesn't kill Szeth. I doubt it is, since the Rattle was there when the old ending existed.

12 hours ago, aemetha said:

To me that sounds like Honor had an opportunity to stop Odium at cost of his own life, and chose not to. From the point of view of The Knights Radiant, why should they continue to fight in the name and tradition of Honor if he himself would not make the same sacrifices he requires of them?

Following my logic, I don't think it's about "the secret" because it happened so much later. There's a line in the Diagram telling Taravangian to "hold the secret that broke the KR." To me, that sounds like he already knew what it was from what he saw during the Day of Brilliance. It's my only gripe though, your idea is a pretty good one.