The Recreance, Yet Again

[cometaryorbit]

Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return. - WOR Chapter 84 epigraph (decoded)

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence -- WOR Chapter 38 epigraph

These epigraphs strongly imply that the Recreance was precipitated by the KR discovering some terrible fact. It doesn't seem to have been tied to any corruption that may have crept in to the Orders (the taxes for travel through Urithiru, etc.)

Now, here's something anomalous. The Desolations devastated Roshar, killing something like 90 percent of the human population and knocking technology back to the stone age, at least sometimes. Yet when Honor was Splintered (after the Recreance -- he remembers it in the visions) there seems to have been no such cataclysm. Aharietiam is still seen as "the Last Desolation", which it wouldn't be if another apocalyptic event had occurred since the Recreance.

Similarly, Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel. But humanity on that planet survived; he didn't destroy the planet, depopulate it, or warp it into some kind of a hellscape.

So why the devastating, lethal Desolations on Roshar before the Recreance? Because humans were fighting on Honor's side. Odium doesn't really care about killing humans, except incidentally to getting at the Shards; nothing much below the power-level of a Herald registers on his "radar screen"

Therefore, my proposal for the Secret That Broke The KR is: Honor's been feeding us into a meat grinder for thousands of years to protect Cultivation and a couple of alien gods we'll never see. If we let Odium win, nothing bad really happens to humanity. Honor betrayed us. Our spren have been in on it, all along - they're pieces of Honor.  So let him die.

Edited October 11, 2016 by cometaryorbit
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[goody153]

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Similarly, Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel. But humanity on that planet survived; he didn't destroy the planet, depopulate it, or warp it into some kind of a hellscape.

Therefore, my proposal for the Secret That Broke The KR is: Honor's been feeding us into a meat grinder for thousands of years to protect Cultivation and a couple of alien gods we'll never see. If we let Odium win, nothing bad really happens to humanity. Honor betrayed us. Our spren have been in on it, all along - they're pieces of Honor.  So let him die.

damnation i like this theory. It even hits the theme "self-preservation vs doing everybody a favor/doing what's honorable". Have an upvote, i like this better than the "Radiants also go braize after death" theory which also kinda fits the same theme.

[VirtuousTraveller]

It does seem so odd that humans would give up these incredibly powerful weapons and suits of armor in an instant.  "Breaking their oaths," it makes me think that it's been a red herring that the KR are the ones to blame for the Recreance - maybe they did learn Honor was using them for ulterior motives.

[Spoolofwhool]

This is a very good thought. However, I have a couple thoughts that it doesn't clear up. 

First of all, even if the KRs had found out that Honor had been tricking them in the manner suggested around the time of the Recreance, why would they have been worried enough to abandon their oaths? The Desolations were well over at that point, and probably no one had died as a result of them in millennia. The only thing I can see is that they knew that there was a possibility that the Desolations would start up again. 

Secondly, we don't know if the Desolations would've occurred with or without the KR. Chances are they would've since the First Desolation occurred before the KRs were formed. Something forced Odium to attack Roshar instead of Honor directly. My opinion is that the Oathpact is what was limiting Odium, so he caused the Desolations to break it by defeating the Heralds. The KRs joined in, but regardless, the Desolations would've still occurred. 

[What's a Seawolf?]

I really like this theory.  Especially, as someone mentioned, that it could fit with the KR also go to Braize theory.

I don't have much to add really, except that if this theory is true, I'm not sure how this revelation (the Honor part alone) could 'destroy the new orders when they return.'

 

I feel like Kaladin/Dalinar would hear Honor used to be feeding KR to the meat grinder and go 'Well that sucks, but we all need to stay alive and have a civilization to save, so KR assemble.'

If the going to Braize part is added to the OP, then that could help shatter some of the new KR.

[VirtuousTraveller]

55 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

If the going to Braize part is added to the OP, then that could help shatter some of the new KR.

OOoo...I like this idea.  Imagine if Kaladin and crew knew that by becoming a KR, they would be signing up to go fight in a place that we've essentially seen as the Roshar equivalent of hell.  I don't know that Honor or the spren made this part clear - if I were a KR and learned that my afterlife would be a battle in hell, I don't know if I'd sign up for it (or stick with it) either.  Maybe this is what they learned that changed their minds and caused everyone to abandon their oaths.

Edited October 11, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[1stBondsmith]

@Spoolofwhool makes two very good arguments. Namely, Why would they suddenly give up bonds, when nothing bad had happened for many more centuries than before? And that there were Desolations without the Knight Radiant. Kind of good proof that they were not causing them, and kind of easily accessed information by the Knights of the time.

"Oathpact- it's gonna' be big!". I agree that this is what limits Oduim in the past, and whatever part is still in effect is what will bring the climax of the Archives.

[Argel]

There may have been some kind of fighting going on though:

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Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

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That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

Agree though that the OP theory does not give us a good motive.

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This is a very good thought. However, I have a couple thoughts that it doesn't clear up. 

First of all, even if the KRs had found out that Honor had been tricking them in the manner suggested around the time of the Recreance, why would they have been worried enough to abandon their oaths? The Desolations were well over at that point, and probably no one had died as a result of them in millennia. The only thing I can see is that they knew that there was a possibility that the Desolations would start up again. 

Secondly, we don't know if the Desolations would've occurred with or without the KR. Chances are they would've since the First Desolation occurred before the KRs were formed. Something forced Odium to attack Roshar instead of Honor directly. My opinion is that the Oathpact is what was limiting Odium, so he caused the Desolations to break it by defeating the Heralds. The KRs joined in, but regardless, the Desolations would've still occurred. 

If they learned as much as I suggest, they'd definitely have known that the Last Desolation wasn't really final.

Yeah, there were Desolations before KR - but Heralds were apparently teaching & leading humanity. My argument would suggest that if the humans had told the Heralds to go jump in a lake and 'stayed out of it', Odium/the Unmade/the Voidbringers would have ignored humans as irrelevant.

5 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

I don't have much to add really, except that if this theory is true, I'm not sure how this revelation (the Honor part alone) could 'destroy the new orders when they return.'

 

I feel like Kaladin/Dalinar would hear Honor used to be feeding KR to the meat grinder and go 'Well that sucks, but we all need to stay alive and have a civilization to save, so KR assemble.'

If this theory is true, Odium's goal in the current Desolation is killing/Splintering Cultivation - the only whole Shard left Invested in Roshar. If the KR and humanity in general stayed out of it, Odium would just kill Cultivation (and likely Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Taln) and leave everybody else alone. There could be collateral damage, but Honor's Splintering doesn't seem to have left a mark as a major historical event, so not that much.

It might be too late for that with the Everstorm activated, though. It might well keep destroying even if Odium didn't really need it anymore.

Still, the Everstorm alone is unlikely to doom humanity or civilization on Roshar.

IMO Taravangian knows this. His ideal outcome was for the Parshendi to be driven to extinction before they summoned the Everstorm. But now, his plan is to keep humanity out of the fight, hunker down and take shelter - that's why he needs to be king of everyone, and why weakening kingdoms by civil war isn't a problem to his plan, likely even a benefit.

[Eki]

44 minutes ago, Argel said:

There may have been some kind of fighting going on though:

Agree though that the OP theory does not give us a good motive.

We know for a fact that there was fighting going on, from Dalinar's vision. I believe the guards are confused when they see the Knights, because they should have been on the front lines.

[What's a Seawolf?]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

If this theory is true, Odium's goal in the current Desolation is killing/Splintering Cultivation - the only whole Shard left Invested in Roshar. If the KR and humanity in general stayed out of it, Odium would just kill Cultivation (and likely Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Taln) and leave everybody else alone. There could be collateral damage, but Honor's Splintering doesn't seem to have left a mark as a major historical event, so not that much.

It might be too late for that with the Everstorm activated, though. It might well keep destroying even if Odium didn't really need it anymore.

Still, the Everstorm alone is unlikely to doom humanity or civilization on Roshar.

IMO Taravangian knows this. His ideal outcome was for the Parshendi to be driven to extinction before they summoned the Everstorm. But now, his plan is to keep humanity out of the fight, hunker down and take shelter - that's why he needs to be king of everyone, and why weakening kingdoms by civil war isn't a problem to his plan, likely even a benefit.

I really like this as well, and answers the one concern I had with the OP.

That's something I can see, a huge internal argument within the KR about if it's worth dying to save Cultivation, with some pulling a new Recreance and staying out of it.

Taking this a little further, maybe that's what the series split is all about?

First 5 books are the initial struggle, then book 5 culminates with the overwhleming majority of the main characters saying, 'you know what, we're good, Cultivation you're on your own.'  The internal struggles of our main characters as this is happening and each's decision would be fascinating to read.  Cultivation dies, Odium is freed and leaves Roshar.

Then the second books are years later where the surviving characters and the new generation realize, 'wow we really screwed up by letting Odium go and not resisting.'  Either because Odium comes back stronger or something else.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

If they learned as much as I suggest, they'd definitely have known that the Last Desolation wasn't really final.

Yeah, there were Desolations before KR - but Heralds were apparently teaching & leading humanity. My argument would suggest that if the humans had told the Heralds to go jump in a lake and 'stayed out of it', Odium/the Unmade/the Voidbringers would have ignored humans as irrelevant.

So they knew the Last Desolation wasn't actually the Last Desolation, but didn't bother telling anyone of this before they went ahead and broke their oaths. This feels fairly unlikely. Even if they were selfish enough to protect themselves from being possible sacrifices if another Desolation suddenly came about, why would they have left no warning to the people, telling them not to accept the Nahel Bond from spren again in order to ensure that sort of mass sacrifice didn't come about again.

You're assuming that the Desolation didn't begin because of the Heralds. Personally, I have a theory that, as you said, the Heralds were teaching, leading and protecting Rosharans, but this is because of the Oathpact. Honor gave them power, surgebinding through the Honorblades, as well as knowledge, so that they could guide the people. As long as they did their duty of guiding and protecting, the Oathpact held. However, when Odium arrived in the Greater Roshar System and because ensnared by the Oathpact, he realized that the only way he could leave would be if he broke it, by forcing the Heralds to fail. Thus the Desolations, with the intent of either killing all the Heralds, therefore causing them to fail in their protection, or just kill everyone else if the Heralds chose not to fight. I guess by this theory that you are correct then, that the Heralds staying out of it would've caused Odium to not devastate Roshar repeatedly, because he would've broken the Oathpact with the First Desolation.

Another point, if the Desolations are so useless in Odium achieving his goal of splintering Honor and Cultivation, for what reason would the True Desolation be occurring? Also, why hasn't he managed to kill Cultivation in the millennia since killing Honor, since, as according to your theory, there are no more humans or Heralds screening her from him.

[marianmi]

Maybe:

* killing Honor = making honor-invested people non-honorable (breaking their oaths) => after heralds betraying their oaths and KR betraying their oaths, Honor died

* killing Cultivation = making sure nothing can grow anymore => destroy the entire planet. So actually non-intervention from humans = extinction. Since not *all* KR had to betray their oaths, but like 90% => maybe destroying 90% of the planet would be enough to kill Cultivation, hence the "hunker down" strategy for humans might save 10% of them.

[Spoolofwhool]

20 minutes ago, marianmi said:

* killing Cultivation = making sure nothing can grow anymore => destroy the entire planet. So actually non-intervention from humans = extinction. Since not *all* KR had to betray their oaths, but like 90% => maybe destroying 90% of the planet would be enough to kill Cultivation, hence the "hunker down" strategy for humans might save 10% of them.

There was life on the planet before Cultivation arrived so I don't see why killing Cultivation would kill all life, unless you're thinking that Rosharan life has evolved to be dependent on Cultivation's power?

Edited October 12, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Rasarr]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

There was life on the planet before Cultivation arrived so I don't see why killing Cultivation would kill all life, unless you're thinking that Rosharan life has evolved to be dependent on Cultivation's power?

If I understood marianmi correctly, you're having this in reverse. By their theory, Cultivation is dependent on Rosharan life, rather than the other way round, so Odium killing 90% of Roshar -> Cultivation dying.

[1stBondsmith]

All the visions Dalinar sees has the end result of the Odium/Everstorm being the world turned to dust and there being only a void left (likely why the opposition is called Voidbringers). That is not a "Hunker down and 10% live" scenario. It is the end of the world, as we know it. (or as anybody else does!) It won't matter who was there first or who kills them. It will be the end. That is worth opposing and What Dalinar is working towards. That is what he has sworn to oppose. But just like Kesier saw a God die, Dalinar says, if Honor can be Killed, so can what killed Him. I think anything else other than survival of the world is getting too deep in the weeds about loyalty to a shard nobody knows, and nobody feels loyalty to. There is no religion of Cultivation. Heck, they are just learning about spren! I think the motives are a lot more simple than the forum as a whole are making them (possibly the over analyzing Brandon accuses us of).

[Eki]

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

There is no religion of Cultivation.

Many of the western religions seem to be more aligned to Cultivation. We don't yet know if they see her as a divinity, like Vorinism sees Honor, though.

[marianmi]

8 hours ago, Rasarr said:

If I understood marianmi correctly, you're having this in reverse. By their theory, Cultivation is dependent on Rosharan life, rather than the other way round, so Odium killing 90% of Roshar -> Cultivation dying.

Correct, thanks @Rasarr

7 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

All the visions Dalinar sees has the end result of the Odium/Everstorm being the world turned to dust and there being only a void left (likely why the opposition is called Voidbringers). That is not a "Hunker down and 10% live" scenario. It is the end of the world, as we know it. (or as anybody else does!) It won't matter who was there first or who kills them. It will be the end. That is worth opposing and What Dalinar is working towards. That is what he has sworn to oppose. But just like Kesier saw a God die, Dalinar says, if Honor can be Killed, so can what killed Him. I think anything else other than survival of the world is getting too deep in the weeds about loyalty to a shard nobody knows, and nobody feels loyalty to. There is no religion of Cultivation. Heck, they are just learning about spren! I think the motives are a lot more simple than the forum as a whole are making them (possibly the over analyzing Brandon accuses us of).

I don't think that the planet itself would be destroyed, and nothing but a void left - i think it was just the end of the vision so in absence of images, there was nothing shown anymore (void). I think Odium winning would just mean conditions so hard, storms so powerful (maybe more often too), life would be difficult to survive.

[1stBondsmith]

I guess i am a literalist in what Dalinar saw.  I think that is why Dust Bringers hate being called by that name, due to it being too much like what was thrown against them in the previous Desolations. Also, I think that even more than Ruin's desire that all should end in it's entropic conclusion, the Hate of a trapped God would bring the complete devastation to the offending world-- dust swirling into the void. I guess we shall see, but the horror of the vision is what focused Dalinar on the possibility of fighting Odium. I think I'll stick with it till I get something else as a better hint.

[cometaryorbit]

I agree that the vision is the strongest evidence against this theory. However, if it's true, Honor is a biased source.

I question Odium's ability to destroy the planet, actually. Even Splintered, power isn't gone. Just as Preservation's near-mindless power still opposed Ruin, I think

On 10/11/2016 at 10:46 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

So they knew the Last Desolation wasn't actually the Last Desolation, but didn't bother telling anyone of this before they went ahead and broke their oaths. This feels fairly unlikely. Even if they were selfish enough to protect themselves from being possible sacrifices if another Desolation suddenly came about, why would they have left no warning to the people, telling them not to accept the Nahel Bond from spren again in order to ensure that sort of mass sacrifice didn't come about again.

Maybe they did say that, and people took it as heresy, and that's part of why they are now reviled?

More likely, though, they didn't quite understand the whole picture, and thought that with Honor gone there would be no more Desolations.

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You're assuming that the Desolation didn't begin because of the Heralds.

No... I think the Heralds' return is definitely involved. But that doesn't mean that it's 100% of the story, or that Odium doesn't have other "windows of action".

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Also, why hasn't he managed to kill Cultivation in the millennia since killing Honor, since, as according to your theory, there are no more humans or Heralds screening her from him.

Because he's imprisoned on Braize. Apparently he can only act on Roshar at specific times (but not limited to Desolations, since Honor's Splintering wasn't during one).

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

No... I think the Heralds' return is definitely involved. But that doesn't mean that it's 100% of the story, or that Odium doesn't have other "windows of action".

I was referring to the First Desolation. It obviously occurred for some reason, but since Odium didn't need it to kill Honor, it, and the cycle of Desolations, must have started for some other reason. Defeating the Heralds seems like a fair point of reason.

[cometaryorbit]

9 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I was referring to the First Desolation. It obviously occurred for some reason, but since Odium didn't need it to kill Honor, it, and the cycle of Desolations, must have started for some other reason. Defeating the Heralds seems like a fair point of reason.

Quite possibly. One of the Heralds threatened to destroy all the Surgebinders if they didn't follow rules, so it's quite plausible they were powerful or Invested enough to register on Odium's radar, even though normal humans wouldn't (or even creatures with a bit more 'magic' to them like the Aimians with their backwards-shadows suggesting a Shadesmar connection)..

[TheOneKEA]

I really, really like this theory a lot. I've been pondering the cause of the Recreance after reading some of the WoB on Reddit, and this neatly explains many of the thoughts I had on just what could cause the Radiants to behave in the manner that they did.

In particular, it very neatly explains Pattern's insistence to Shallan that she will kill him someday.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah. One of the things that inspired this theory was... well, Knights are generally going to have a close relationship with their spren. For the Recreance to be as nearly universal as it seems to have been, IMO it would almost have to have involved at least a perceived betrayal by the spren.

[JUQ]

Sorry for necroing, but I see a major hole in this theory.

How honorable is it to feed millions of people into a meat grinder? Not at all, huh?