Sanderson Elimination: Questions & Answers and Game Meta Discussion

[Elbereth]

Alv, that was fantastic.  And probably the most I’ve ever seen you talk at once. 

I agree close to entirely with Sart, except for the first two bits:

Quote

• We made some crazy awesome stories together, but because they were so awesome, they got more and more complex. Pretty soon, no one could keep up with it all, but we didn't want to break canon. And so, roleplay began to die.
• We wanted to win the games we were playing. We devoted hours to analyzing the thread, wondering who the killers were. We came up with new, more detailed analysis. We started keeping spreadsheets, charts, and writing all sorts of essays out of love for the game. But then, real-life got in the way. Our activity started slipping, but we didn't want to give up our current activity level. Our analysis felt worse and worse, and it quickly became too much effort to do our analysis. If we did post, we would always feel guilty, promising to do more and more analysis that we could never fit into our schedules. The most-repeated lie I've seen on this forum is "I'll do more analysis later." We don't have time to do analysis. The bar was raised way too high, and now even basic analysis has become a chore. And thus, we became more and more passionate, relying more and more on feelings and gut reads. And thus the games started to get personal, and with that came the death of camaraderie.

I personally don’t get the impression that RP stopped because the meta got too complicated. As far as I know, the last big spurt of it was LG14 before I came - and then LG15b was set on a spaceship, and while people could’ve played with a different setting, they instead weren’t sure what the rules were anymore and didn’t RP much. LG17 was similar, as I recall. Part of it, I think, is that the RPers left over time (Kas, Wyrm, Quiver, for instance) and not enough new ones came in to fill it up, or RPers lost time and couldn’t anymore (me >>) (though this is still backing up your point of “tried too hard” - people had the impression that it had to be something amazing, and that’s very wrong), or analysis became the focus and RP got discouraged. 

I don’t particularly see gut reads/feelings being a source of conflict. It makes logical discussion more difficult, yes, but it shouldn’t inherently be more problematic. I see it as a lack of friendship caused by other factors, not this one in particular. It’s a new idea, though, and one I’ll consider further. 

 

I am entirely in agreement about what Alv said about the meta, and “parts that fell on the floor together and look like something” is the best description of it I’ve ever heard. A few more suggestions if anyone’s interested: recurring characters, preferably ones that don’t tie to other universes/don’t exist outside the Cosmere - it’d be doable, but take longer to incorporate someone like Yoda than a character you build yourself, because people will think of that as a visitor rather than someone inherently in the Cosmere. Join a Shard game - those tend to have lots of opportunities for gaining magic Whatevers. Talk to me, Alv, Joe, Wilson, Orlok, or Rae (who are I think the main people but even then there are probably several others that would work equally well). Have someone react with someone else’s ongoing character (Locke, for instance, recurs in each game, and could easily (if arrogantly) interact over multiple games with another recurring character). Make your character fun, or interesting, and invest yourself in them so that you care about them. RP partners are wonderful for this. The meta is whatever people make it. 

I could not agree more with the rest of Alv’s post, and I’ll leave it there because I have nothing more to add to his points, except that I’ve considered in the past stopping Discord usage while in a spec/dead/evil doc, which is a possibility but not necessarily the right choice. 

TL;DR Alv is amazing; I don’t know why RP stopped; I’m not sure about gut reads causing conflict; and the meta is what you make it.

[Darkness Ascendant]

All of these points are great, personally I find that the involvement of the GM in the game itself fosters activity, familiarity, inclusion and comfort. 

Kind of like what Joe and Aonar did during their whatsitcalled...Gunnerkrigg court game. I kind of can't wait to GM, you all are going to be crapped on pretty badly by yours truly.

I'd write an essay but I have tendonitis.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Darkness_

[Alvron]

3 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Alv, that was fantastic.  And probably the most I’ve ever seen you talk at once. 

TL;DR Alv is amazing;

Really, not even half an hour before you called me out?  So mean. But I forgive you because you called me amazing.  While true, it's still nice to hear.   

Added to what I said about creating a character, don't box them in.  Once you have the basic outline of your character done, let them decide what happens next.  You are not them after all.  You can give them an object to overcome but it is up to them as to how it is done.

As for awards, make them up if you want one.  I have a nice collection of them and all but one were self given.  If you think you did something amazing then give yourself an award for it.  Or if you died in a really horrible, funny or unusual way, award yourself.

It only takes a couple of people to start something and before you know it, everyone wants to join in.  So if you have a fun idea, run with it..  Go on, be a trend setter.

[Darkness Ascendant]

12 minutes ago, Alvron said:

Added to what I said about creating a character, don't box them in.  Once you have the basic outline of your character done, let them decide what happens next.  You are not them after all.  You can give them an object to overcome but it is up to them as to how it is done.

Oh yes, I'm all for discovery writing RP characters. (Always do that).

[DrakeMarshall]

Well, here I am, a week late to the party.

I agree with nearly everything that has already been said. Particularly with what Alvron said.

But, being a talkative sort (particularly late at night), I have more to say. Here is my $0.02 on several of the issues raised.

Metanarrative

I speak as somebody who has been here for around a year, and still hasn't the slightest clue what the collective is.

I will first say that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having an extensive backstory. Often, a backstory helps unite people through shared experience. It isn't exclusive, because newcomers can start making their mark on the backstory once they arrive.

I think the issue here is more about community, and specifically collaboration. It doesn't really matter if you attempt to reset the metanarrative... Or if you start writing new RP that builds off the existing metanarrative... Or if you do something completely different. What matters is how you do it.

Again, I speak as somebody who fundamentally doesn't know what they are talking about.

But it strikes me that what you want to recapture is most nearly the sense of community. And, in the context of RP, I'm pretty sure that means collaboration. RPing on your own can be heaps of fun, but collaborating is even more fun... And much more memorable because it's a shared experience.

So, in conclusion... What can I do about it? I think I'd like to find a way to collaborate for some RP in the upcoming LG (if anyone wants to do anything please PM me ).

Also, I want to look into some methods to encourage collaborated RP in the LG I am currently designing.

Discord

I'm not sure about this.

Personally, I've had quite a lot of fun in docs before (my favorite was probably the informant doc with Alvron in the last reckoner's MR... That doc was probably my favorite part of the game).

On the other hand, it's probably true that the presence of discord detracts from other media. Activity in spec docs is definitely pretty low.

On the (third?) hand, it's not necessarily a bad thing that communications move from other locations into discord.

Again, I'm basically undecided on this.

GM Action

There are a few possible approaches:

1. Make in-game rewards to encourage certain behavior, like incentivizing RP as seen in LG30 and LG33. I have a lot of other ideas about this. I aim to test quite a few of them in the LG that I have in queue. Such an approach works particularly effectively in the more complicated games (such as aforementioned LG33).

2. Remember to run some games that are simple (and perhaps lower player requirements). While I love making new things, there are also some key advantages to keeping a healthy number of basic games in the mix. First, it doesn't require as much time. Different players have different levels of time commitment, and we should have games that are suited to a variety of time commitments. Second, it draws attention away from the newest innovative game mechanic, and back towards the players. Every now and then that can be helpful. Again, I'm not saying I don't like complicated games (because I seriously do)... But we need a good mix. I would suggest that QFs in particular should be much more barebones then they are right now.

3. Acknowledging players for doing things other than winning. I don't really know the history of the "paper plate" thing but it sounds like a reasonable idea.

In Conclusion

At the end of the day, this game is what we make of it. If you truly aren't enjoying the game anymore... You can either decide to stop playing, or decide to make it fun.

Play the game in a way that is fun to you, within the bounds of respecting other people. Shoutout to @Steeldancer for being particularly good at this.

And finally, always think the best of other people. That might sound naive, but I'm dead serious. If you are angry about something, you've probably misunderstood something.

 

...and it's getting quite late now, and I have an 8am class tomorrow. Goodnight. Hopefully I haven't said anything too dumb while I've been sleep deprived.

[Steeldancer]

@Drake Marshall I would say I'm good at it because I messed up. I wasn't exactly respectful in LG34 and I decided since then to be better. So, thanks

[Alvron]

11 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Well, here I am, a week late to the party.

Metanarrative

I speak as somebody who has been here for around a year, and still hasn't the slightest clue what the collective is.

GM Action

Make in-game rewards to encourage certain behavior, like incentivizing RP as seen in LG30 and LG33. I have a lot of other ideas about this. I aim to test quite a few of them in the LG that I have in queue. Such an approach works particularly effectively in the more complicated games (such as aforementioned LG33).

Better late than never.  

The Collective is simply a group of my characters that have banded together with the goal of killing OW (Original Wilson) and/or take over the Cosmere and remaking it in their image.  I do intend to one day add a full breakdown on the Collective and it's members to the SEA but they are surprisingly difficult to pin down for questioning.

I personally disagree with this.  Incentivizing one type of play over another is not something that should be done by anyone.  Yes there is a sad lack of RP in games but catering a game or giving rewards that affect gameplay for one type of playing over another can and does lead to unbalanced games.  I'm not saying it breaks games but giving an advantage to one set of players over another is not an easy thing to balance.  It can also lead to the problems we already have, just on the opposite side.  At moment the players tend not to RP or they break from it when they are getting lynched/attention.  In a game that rewards RP, those that don't like to RP might decide not to play the game and if that happens to be the first game they look at playing, then we might lose a player that could be the next powerhouse.

Should there be more RP in games?  Yes!  Storms yes!  I love reading everyones RP.  Should players be rewarded for one type of playstyle over another?  No.  If you want to RP, great.  If you don't, then you shouldn't be punished gameplay wise for choosing not to.

The GMs job is not to decide how we play the game but rather to provide the setting and boundaries for us to play and explore within.  It is up to the players themselves as to how they play the game.

[DrakeMarshall]

11 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

@Drake Marshall I would say I'm good at it because I messed up. I wasn't exactly respectful in LG34 and I decided since then to be better. So, thanks

I remember LG34  The reason I congratulate you is that you've done admirably since then.

1 hour ago, Alvron said:

I personally disagree with this.  Incentivizing one type of play over another is not something that should be done by anyone.  Yes there is a sad lack of RP in games but catering a game or giving rewards that affect gameplay for one type of playing over another can and does lead to unbalanced games.  I'm not saying it breaks games but giving an advantage to one set of players over another is not an easy thing to balance.  It can also lead to the problems we already have, just on the opposite side.  At moment the players tend not to RP or they break from it when they are getting lynched/attention.  In a game that rewards RP, those that don't like to RP might decide not to play the game and if that happens to be the first game they look at playing, then we might lose a player that could be the next powerhouse.

Should there be more RP in games?  Yes!  Storms yes!  I love reading everyones RP.  Should players be rewarded for one type of playstyle over another?  No.  If you want to RP, great.  If you don't, then you shouldn't be punished gameplay wise for choosing not to.

The GMs job is not to decide how we play the game but rather to provide the setting and boundaries for us to play and explore within.  It is up to the players themselves as to how they play the game.

I have two ways I would like to respond to this:

1. I for one very much enjoyed LG30 and LG33. They were some of my favorite games. They might not have been perfectly balanced for all I know, and they might have targeted a specific audience, but they were still fun.

It isn't necessarily bad for a game to slightly favor one playstyle over another, so long as we have a healthy level of variety. Long games favor players with higher time commitment, and quick fixes are friendlier to players with shorter time commitment.

I agree that, if possible, it would be better to make a game that all people can enjoy. However, I believe our community is big enough to have space for a few specialty games. (that said, we could consider putting a cap on the number of specialty games we run in a year, just like we have a cap on the number of non-Sanderson games)

2. As for the LG that I am working on. Suffice to say that I intend to offer incentives for a variety of playstyles and behaviors that I wish to encourage, not only RP.

This is related to the oaths of the different orders of Knight Radiant 

And also several other powers that be on the planet of Roshar.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Drake Marshall

[manukos]

so i am making a non Sanderson game 
and i am supposed to get some feedback from here , so hello ?

well it will be set in the wormverse and more specificly in the agnosia miasma , cos it fits perfectly with the mafia  game style perfectly (a black out game , minimum information given preferably ), i also had a recomendation from bugsy that i could make it an anonymus game ,(but lets leave that on the side for now , cos it would depend on if i can get permissions and it can be implemented or not without changing much)

on the subject of a blackout game  , i am unsure of how much i should disclose here , cos i have some interesting ideas that would be better left unspoiled 
but the general rules are : the Slaughterhouse nine have come to rown , kill them all to win , you are unsure if you are a parahuman or not , you may use an action to remember who you are , and if you remember your triggeryou will be unable to vote the next day (game starts at night 0 and elims cant make a kill , but the are not affected by the miasma)
 

i have a role doc , and i know that the power level of my roles is quite high but idealy everyone will have a role

 

[Kari]

How is this comparable to forum mafia? Is it more difficult, or is it way more complicated?

[Elbereth]

@manookla the ookla, I suggest posting in The Art Of Game Creation, if you’d like advice on your game. That’s the more appropriate place for it. 

@Ookla the Hematist, I’m not sure I understand your question. This is forum mafia insofar as its mafia played on a forum. It’s more complicated than most forum mafia, as I understand it, but it heavily depends on your baseline. If you’d like an idea, I suggest looking at rulesets for a few games and/or reading through a couple of games to get a sense for difficulty. 

[Kari]

 @Elbereth Thank you for answering my horribly phrased question. I just wanted to know if the roleplaying aspect makes it more difficult. 

[Elbereth]

So... roleplaying is something that some players do and others don’t, and generally isn’t related to gameplay. Sometimes, yes, when a player chooses only to RP (though that’s less common nowadays), but in general there’s RP in the write ups and players do some, but it’s separate from game discussion. 

[Kari]

That clears things up.

Also, when's the next game? I keep checking the spreadsheet, but I cant find it.

[Elbereth]

The next game to be posted will either be MR26, when the current Quick Fix finishes, or AG4, when the current LG is done. I expect it’ll be MR26, so come back in... perhaps a week? A week and a half? Signups should be up around then. 

[MonsterMetroid]

I'm sure it is listed somewhere but I haven't found the right post yet... how do you join a game?

[Steeldancer]

There aren't sign ups at the moment, but you can watch the games if you want. There will be sign up threads for new games as current ones finish. 

[Seonid]

5 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I'm sure it is listed somewhere but I haven't found the right post yet... how do you join a game?

To join a game,  just post in the signup thread of the game that you want to join.

Unfortunately,  we don't have any games open at this exact moment, but the next one should go up in the next few days. 

[A Joe in the Bush]

Anniversary Game 4's signups are scheduled to be posted on January 5th.

[Steeldancer]

40 minutes ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

Anniversary Game 4's signups are scheduled to be posted on January 5th.

Hooray! 

[MonsterMetroid]

21 hours ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

Anniversary Game 4's signups are scheduled to be posted on January 5th.

Yay!!! Now i need to set 5 alarms to remind me!!

Edited January 3, 2018 by MonsterMetroid

[Orlok Tsubodai]

26 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Yay!!! Now i need to set 5 alarms to remind me!!

I’ll be running AG4, and am quite happy to PM you to remind you of signups when they begin.

[MonsterMetroid]

On 1/3/2018 at 4:24 PM, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I’ll be running AG4, and am quite happy to PM you to remind you of signups when they begin.

Yeah if you could that would be great!

[Steeldancer]

Pssst wheres those sign ups

[Herowannabe]

I’m also curious in where the AG signups are...

 

But in other news, has anyone out there played Codenames? A couple weeks ago I started making an effort to get a game of Cosmere Codenames up and running in the general forums. It’s nearly gathered enough players to get going, so if anyone feels like joining come check it out.  It should require significantly less of a time investment than SE does. 

 

EDIT: (apologies if this isn’t the best place to post this. I’ve long since wished that we had a proper off-topic thread over here... )

Edited January 6, 2018 by Herowannabe