Mandamon Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 Hey @TKWade just wanted to say welcome to Reading Excuses, and I did read through your submission, but everything I noted has already been captured in (gory) detail by everyone else, so I won't beat multiple dead horses (fridged horses--killed to further your plot?) Anyway, congrats on taking all this criticism like a champ--your writing will only get better from it. If I may offer some suggestions: 1) Don't let this keep from you writing 2) Don't let these critiques make you rewrite the same chapter over and over 3) Finish the story, even though you know it has problems. 4) Read stories that happen in non-western cultures, to non-western people. A lot of them have less bias towards the sort of tropes we have in western writing. They are good examples to develop your style. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKWade Posted October 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 I don't know why I never considered tropes and inherent biases, probably my writer's ignorance showing, but that's okay lol Thanks for the encouragement. My goal is to do one revision per submission to just keep the progression going. Unless my revision gets shredded, maybe, maybe then i'll do one more haha. I'll have to check out more books from non-western writers. I need to just be more aware, in general, of my characters as people and not just filler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 38 minutes ago, TKWade said: I need to just be more aware, in general, of my characters as people and not just filler. Definitely. Remember, everyone's the hero of their own story. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdpulfer Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 - First off, the first paragraph probably should be broken up. Readers might be intimidated when the first paragraph takes up so much space. - The first two and half pages feels like set-up and infodumping. It would help if we found Lyzell in the thick of the action and let the reader figure out what was going on. - How is Alandria's wife beautiful? This seems like a detail which probably should be dropped, unless its relevant, or described further. - Not really surprised she is killed in the end, but I was surprised by Lyzell's response. - I like the very, very end of the prologue, but I'm not sure if there's enough of substance up until that point. Before that point, there's just a battle and a chase, but nothing the reader is very invested in . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 7 hours ago, Mandamon said: fridged horses--killed to further your plot?) If PETA gets involved here, we're all in trouble! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 On 11/10/2016 at 3:02 AM, krystalynn03 said: First, I want to praise you for having a strong sense of grammar and vocabulary. You want to fill your text with imagery and give your readers pictures from your mind and that's good. You've put thought and work into world-building and it shows. Here, here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 Hey TK, great to read something from a new voice on Reading Excuses, belated welcome from me. Straight into the comments, summation at the end. First sentence a bit tortured, but I get some nice images. You might consider reining back on the adjectives and adverbs a little. “Ulganian” is bothering me. I'm thinking Ulganians would be clearer. The former sounds like the singular. “The terrible invading army was filled with men in black chainmail” – I must admit that I thought we were hearing the account of a volcanic eruption. Actually, I felt a bit cheated to discover it was ‘only’ an invading army. The volcanic scenario evokes a deeper dread in a way, of the hopelessness of standing against nature. Also, there was nothing to imply a man-made force until suddenly there is an invading army. It felt abrupt. I would have liked a clue to allow me to deduce it for myself before it was announced. “a terrible black and blood red combination” – Lol. My brain turned ‘combination’ into ‘ensemble’ – with contrasting white feather fascinator, and alligator clutch. “Like a black river pouring through a cracked dam” – really like this image, as a civil engineer, I get a real sense of dread from that. “white robes in stark contrast to their black chainmail” – This image is very... well, black-and-white. White hat, black hat was a cliché before I was born, and that ain’t yesterday (or the day before, or the day before that...) “protectors and black-scaled Thrallar” – This is a compound adjective, you will normally see this form hyphenated. “They wielded colossal amounts of Source forging it into immense glowing balls of immense power that smashed against the magnificent walls of the beautiful city.” – Here’s a prime example of my concern about the adjective use. Every noun is preceded by an adjective, so you get a kind of rhythm that sounds repetitive. I suggest breaking that up by missing out an adjective and using two, occasionally, which you do sometimes, to be fair. Oh, and typo, repetition of immense. “Shouts and cries came from the window” – What window? This is a bit of a POV jolt, as it sounds like we’re in someone’s head for an instant. “The city of Alluren was ablaze in the early morning sun” – effective image. “The attack started hours ago, but Lyzell, a tall Ulganian with thick golden-brown hair and a coarse red beard, could have sworn it had only been raging for a few short hours”- These are the same, so he’s right! “He and his beautiful wife, Alandria” – Ha-ha, are you a Foo Fighters fan? Me too. The ‘beautiful wife’ thing is, I think, rather pointless. (Almost) everyone’s spouse is beautiful to them, even if not in that ‘obvious’ beautiful way (Friends shout-out anyone?). My point is, telling us she’s beautiful is redundant. I think it’s more interesting to either describe her, so the reader can deduce that she’s beautiful (dark eyes filled with pain, slender frame quivering with fear, etc.), or not describe her at all a leave us to wonder. “he dreaded it dearly” – Hmm, doesn’t sound right to me. “prophecies written on aged scrolls” – hmm, rather clichéd. This reminds me of the low hanging fruit argument on WE. When considering what the prophecies are written on, maybe don’t just take the first thing that comes to mind. Discard that, then discard the next one (papyrus), maybe even the next one (animal skin?) and use something different again, it will probably be more interesting (carved in ancient bark; drawn on linen in animal blood; scratched onto slate; tablets made from the ancient river’s clay; etc.). Just a thought. “worn, leather-bound books” “It was a lengthy, detailed letter that” – This doesn’t sound very frantic or urgent. “He had been at the letter for several hours attempting to cram all the information he could into it before it was time to set off” – Timeline issue, maybe. This suggests that he knew the attack was coming, since the attack is more recent than ‘several hours’, being only ‘a few hours’. “He would do anything to protect his beautiful wife” – Whoa, okay, I'm calling a gender issue here. This could be read that it’s her beauty that leads him to want to protect her. Calling her beautiful once is borderline, but twice is too much. “Yes, let us make haste. Quickly” – Is there another way to make haste? “The alley was full of a foggy mist” – Not misty fog? “didn’t seem to disturb the fog” – Mist and fog are not the same, strictly speaking. Fog is thicker than mist. “pulling Alandria along with him slowly” – No, if @kaisa doesn’t call this, I will be surprised. Is she not capable of keeping up with him, why isn’t she the one pulling him? This is something that I’ve become way more conscious of thanks the efforts of certain good people on here. It’s a real gender stereotype that he the female is not able to make progress or keep up without aid from the male. Thanks to WE and being on here for 3+ years, I am much more conscious now (although not always successful) at trying to do the less expected. I would suggest that, if you find yourself making an assumption, especially based on gender, consider whether it is justified, or trying and justify it in the narrative. Maybe she is lingering, looking back into their home and he needs to pull her away. Something to consider, anyway. “The creature tilted its head” – I’ve heard nothing to suggest it’s a creature, could be a man from my POV, or a woman. Well. I did enjoy that. There was some good imagery, and I felt that you generated a good atmosphere. Characterisation was a little flat, but I can see the potential. Perhaps the couple was just a bit generic, and could stand a little personalisation in passing (not extensive!). I think a couple of edits would sharpen this up a good deal. Most people could say that about their stuff, but we all need to hear it, I think. I would suggest ‘less is more’ would apply in several places where the narrative is a bit baggy and wordy. In terms of content, I think the point on gender roles is something to be conscious of. Give us a female character to route for, not just one who trails on the coattails of the protagonist then seems to die to generate emotional impact. I'm interested to read more. Decent job. <R> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) On 13/10/2016 at 2:48 AM, kaisa said: If PETA gets involved here, we're all in trouble! @kaisa, presumably, this would be abattoiring, not fridging? Edited October 14, 2016 by Robinski 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted October 15, 2016 Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 17 hours ago, Robinski said: this would be abattoiring, not fridging Quick! We can define a new trope! 17 hours ago, Ernei said: How about Uncle Ben? He died with Aunt Beru, so not technically alone. Dual-fridge? That's a strange example, too, because it didn't really effect Luke strongly. He didn't care for them to begin with, so aside from the 'stare at the burning hut' scene, they had very little impact on Luke's character development. They were sort of scenery, with a little angst about Toshi station and some power converters thrown in for color. Did Beru even have lines? Did she just pour blue milk and then get toasted? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 15, 2016 Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 2 hours ago, kaisa said: He died with Aunt Beru I thought we were talking about Peter Parker's Uncle Ben, @Ernei? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 15, 2016 Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, kaisa said: Quick! We can define a new trope! - abattoiring (v) - (in writing) the act of an author writing a scene in which harm is done to an animal gratuitously, for no other purpose than to create sympathy for a character, or another animal, or the abattoired animal's offspring (cf 'Bambie', Walt Disney Pictures, 1942). (antonym) butchery - (in writing) the act of an author writing a scene in which harm is done to an animal for the purpose of making dinner. Did Beru even have lines? Did she just pour blue milk and then get toasted? - LOL Edited October 15, 2016 by Robinski 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted October 15, 2016 Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 7 hours ago, Ernei said: Yeah, that was the one I was thinking about. I forgot that Luke used to have an uncle O.o Ah. I was never a fan of Spider-Man. I do seem to recall his uncle dying from a ... mugging? Yes? Amusingly, the death of Peter Parker's first girlfriend is one of the major pillars upon which the fridge trope is based. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted October 15, 2016 Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 LOL @Robinski! Our characters will never be able to eat meat again! Butchery trope established!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKWade Posted October 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 All the tropes! My first thought was uncle Ben from spider-man, but good catch with Luke's aunt and uncle. My mind didn't go there and now I'm just disappointed in myself because I fancy myself a huge Star Wars fan. All I've been able to think about for the last couple of day is Rogue One, It's a real problem. Robinski, thank you so much for the critique. These critiques are exactly what I needed for direction on getting better so it's hard to say in words how much I appreciate you all giving me the advice that you have. I've got a major revision ahead of me and I've been workin my butt off trying to take everything that I've learned into account. I might actually have it ready for this Monday submission if there is still a spot open and if not then definitely next week. The great thing is that I see similar issues with my next chapters so i'm going to do one revision before I post those and try to incorporate what I've learnt into those as well. I also took at a look at that inherent bias site, kaisa, very cool. I found that I'm not a racist BUT that I see native americans as forgien, slightly. I need to take the rest of them. They're really interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 15, 2016 Report Share Posted October 15, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, TKWade said: I need to take the rest of them. They're really interesting. Oooh, there are quizzes? I'm in!! p.s. @TKWade, it's good to remember to only take on board the comments that you think are valid. Sometimes, I think there's a temptation, to believe all the comments and think that one has to make all the changes, but it's okay to disagree and leave certain things the way they are if you believe you are right, I know I do, sometimes Edited October 15, 2016 by Robinski 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 5 hours ago, Robinski said: Oooh, there are quizzes? I'm in!! To clarify - this is a long term study by Harvard to both educate people on various types of implicit bias, and to help better understand it. The tests were developed by sociologists and this is a very long running study. When you take one of the quizzes you become part of the study as well. They're a bit long, but VERY informative. I've taken a number of them. As an example, for the women in the workplace one, I actually have a mild implicit bias against women in the workplace, which was mind blowing to me. That's the neat thing about these quizzes - they can help you identify your bias even when you think you can't possibly have one. Link again, for anyone else who wants to take a few. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 5 hours ago, kaisa said: I actually have a mild implicit bias against women in the workplace Sorry @kaisa, but... ROFL! Gender bias is one thing, but competitiveness(?) is a whole different ball-game ...then again, I will no doubt be rolling on the other side of my floor once I've taken a quiz (watch this space) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 Right?? I took the women in the workplace one, as this issue is near and dear to my heart, and my results came back and I was all o_O WHAAAA? But hey, that's why its implicit bias, and not overt bias I guess. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 On October 11, 2016 at 10:11 PM, kaisa said: It's becoming like a rite of passage for me to have to point this out. On October 11, 2016 at 11:59 PM, kaisa said: which should give you an idea of the problem of fridging (in that I have to have this talk with pretty much every new writer on this board, male, female, or other). Yep... not a single new submission on this forum, be it written by a male or female, has been free of this trope since I joined (not that I'm that old... ). Though I think this thread contains the most in-depth discussion about it yet. @TKWade, I didn't read your first submission last week, but I'm excited to read your next one! It looks like you got a lot of great feedback. @Robinski, the first book I ever plotted was definitely guilty of abattoiring... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Ernei said: Oi, I think I didn't get the fridge alarm yet Ack, I definitely realized this after I had posted! I spoke too hastily. You and @cadebengert have so far been completely fridge-free, I believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 On 10/16/2016 at 1:19 PM, kaisa said: Right?? I took the women in the workplace one, as this issue is near and dear to my heart, and my results came back and I was all o_O WHAAAA? But hey, that's why its implicit bias, and not overt bias I guess. @kaisa I took one of these a while ago, I think the women in science one, and results came back that I'm very implicitly biased against women in science. Very eye opening, and something I think about every time I find myself doing the mental dance of "oh, hey there's a woman engineer I respect. Wait. It's an engineer I respect that happens also to be a woman. But really, gender shouldn't matter when.." and about this time I'm whispering for my brain to shut up and trying to remember what question I was going to ask. Doesn't help that we have at least a 10-1 ratio of men to women where I work. Although I'm happy to report that we're having an information session on women in the workplace this morning. Hoping it will be a positive experience (and not just white males beating their chests). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadebengert Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 On 10/17/2016 at 2:44 PM, Hobbit said: Ack, I definitely realized this after I had posted! I spoke too hastily. You and @cadebengert have so far been completely fridge-free, I believe. I disappear for a couple weeks, and I get referenced? Cool! I should be busy more often Can someone explain "fridging" to me? Not familiar with the term. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 The simple answer is writing a character whose only purpose is getting killed off as motivation for your protagonist. You can find a full explanation on fridging here. (WARNING! this is a link to tvtropes.org, only click if you've got about 6 hours to spare) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadebengert Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 55 minutes ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said: The simple answer is writing a character whose only purpose is getting killed off as motivation for your protagonist. You can find a full explanation on fridging here. (WARNING! this is a link to tvtropes.org, only click if you've got about 6 hours to spare) Ah, thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 3 hours ago, cadebengert said: Can someone explain "fridging" to me? Not familiar with the term. @cadebengert this one is a good place to start, as a jumping off point to the link Eagle posted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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