Preservation's Downfall

[VirtuousTraveller]

It's been a little while since I read Secret History (can't wait for Arcanum Unbounded), but as I was thinking about Cognitive Shadows and such, I'm curious to hear some ideas about what exactly Leras was as we saw him in this story.  He wasn't really dead, so he couldn't be a Cognitive Shadow, and he existed in the Cognitive Realm much like Sazed does, who is fully alive.  Sazed didn't seem to understand all about the Spiritual Realm yet, so I'm not sure that the Vessel exists/has a presence in the Spiritual Realm (though they are able to channel incredible power from the Spiritual Realm).  It seems via this power they can manifest themselves in the Physical Realm whenever they please (i.e. Ruin).  Vessels' physical bodies appear back in the Physical Realm when the Vessel dies, but where do they exist until that point?

1.  Do all Vessels of shards have a permanent presence in the Cognitive Realm?  In other words, is this where they exist in realmatic space?

In Secret History, Leras was literally falling to pieces (appearing fuzzy to Kelsier) in the Cognitive Realm.  He gave up some of his power to invest in all of humanity, making him slightly weaker than Ruin, but from Vin's initial attempts to use Preservation's power to destroy Ruin, it didn't seem possible without completely destroying herself in the process.  While I guess we can infer that this "slight disadvantage" in power over immense amounts of time could wear Leras down, I'm not sure of the mechanics of how this took place.  The power of a shard seems to make a person functionally immortal, so would giving up 1% of a shard's power eventually cause you to lose your mind?  That doesn't seem likely to me.

2.  What actually caused Leras' death?

3.  Is a Cognitive Shadow something intentionally created, or does this happen automatically?  In other words, why wouldn't Leras just reappear in the Cognitive Realm fully whole again after he died?  While he wouldn't have had his shardic powers any more, he surely would have had the knowledge to help Kelsier out in his questing.

I apologize if these questions are simple and have been answered elsewhere.  I shardsurf in my limited free time and don't always get to read all the past posts on stuff!

[Yata]

1 or 2)

Leras become like you see it because He sacrificed almost all his Mind to create Ruin's Prison (and at this point Ruin already wound him in a fatal way). He is not completely sane because a great part of his Mind was no more. Then when Ruin was released Ruin actively began to suppress Preservation and their difference in power made Ruin capable of Accelerate Preservation's Death.

3) A Sliver may simply chose to remain as Cognitive Shadow after his/her Death. We don't know if Preservation choose to go Beyond or simply Ruin suppress his soul as soon as He pop up in the Cognitive after his death

[goody153]

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Sazed didn't seem to understand all about the Spiritual Realm yet, so I'm not sure that the Vessel exists/has a presence in the Spiritual Realm (though they are able to channel incredible power from the Spiritual Realm).

Not sure about that he pretty much showed himself to Wax at SoS(the first time Sazed introduced himself to Wax he pretty much made a image of himself in Wax's presence on the part they were talking about "Gods hands are tied" ) like Ruin does alot of times with Vin back in the trilogy. (Both Wax and Vin had hemalurgic ring on)

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1.  Do all Vessels of shards have a permanent presence in the Cognitive Realm?  In other words, is this where they exist in realmatic space

Based on Secret History Ruin rarely showed himself in the cognitive realm. So i guess they don't really have to. Even Sazed can go awol in the cognitive realm in the same book after his ascension. 

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While I guess we can infer that this "slight disadvantage" in power over immense amounts of time could wear Leras down, I'm not sure of the mechanics of how this took place.

This part never took place since Ruin never recovered his missing power that balanced them out(he got killed by Vin  before he could retrieve the Atium's). If he got his power Preservation is pretty much screwed 

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The power of a shard seems to make a person functionally immortal, so would giving up 1% of a shard's power eventually cause you to lose your mind?  That doesn't seem likely to me

You are missing a really important part which is that Preservation literally gave up his mind to seal Ruin. Not give up a part of his power.

Losing a power won't mean losing the mind since Endowment, Odium, Honor and Cultivation should've lost their mind since they split their power through splinters.

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2.  What actually caused Leras' death?

Lacking of mind(so he's gonna get outplayed and stuff) and slowly getting rekt by Ruin. (slowly killing the vessel not the style Odium does)

Both Ruin and Preservation said at some point that Leras sacrifice was made when he made the prison to seal Ruin which pretty much kills him eventually since Ruin is not just gonna sit around with a weakened shard trying to meddle in his process of ENDing things.

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3.  Is a Cognitive Shadow something intentionally created, or does this happen automatically?  In other words, why wouldn't Leras just reappear in the Cognitive Realm fully whole again after he died?

He should've reappeared for sure but he probably choose to get sucked into the Beyond (like Rashek, Ati and Vin all three had the choice to stay but they didn't)

Edited October 4, 2016 by goody153

[VirtuousTraveller]

13 minutes ago, goody153 said:

You are missing a really important part which is that Preservation literally gave up his mind to seal Ruin. Not give up a part of his power.

But what does that mean, to "literally give up his mind?"  The realmatics of this statement don't add up to me.  Does this mean that he, as a Vessel, gave up his "Cognitive Aspect" to create Ruin's prison?  What's the connection of "mind" to the prison Ruin was bound to?  If it wasn't his power, but his mind, that created Ruin's prison, could another Vessel alternatively give up his "feelings" or his "senses" to create something?

 

17 minutes ago, goody153 said:

He should've reappeared for sure but he probably choose to get sucked into the Beyond (like Rashek, Ati and Vin all three had the choice to stay but they didn't)

But why would he choose this, knowing he had been working so hard to help the crew against Ruin?  It's seems very short-sighted, but I guess if he didn't have his full mental faculties, being short-sighted fits.

[Yata]

5 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

But what does that mean, to "literally give up his mind?"  The realmatics of this statement don't add up to me.  Does this mean that he, as a Vessel, gave up his "Cognitive Aspect" to create Ruin's prison?  What's the connection of "mind" to the prison Ruin was bound to?  If it wasn't his power, but his mind, that created Ruin's prison, could another Vessel alternatively give up his "feelings" or his "senses" to create something?

There is no a clear statement but we know that Ruin's prison isn't exactly a prison. Ruin is simply unable to act, because every kind of actions he would try he would be auto-countered by Preservation's Power. With this in mind (that is actually canon).

I think Leras gived up a large piece of his mind to "guide" this auto-counter aganist Ruin. But instead of the power who may be divided and stacked again as soon it is avaliable again, once a Mind is broken, the missing part didn't return to the host.

 

About his short-sighted attitude, you have right about the modern Leras. While the old Leras probably planned his own death as part of the "Remove Ruin for the Cosmere's business" plan.

[goody153]

12 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

But what does that mean, to "literally give up his mind?"  The realmatics of this statement don't add up to me.  Does this mean that he, as a Vessel, gave up his "Cognitive Aspect" to create Ruin's prison?  What's the connection of "mind" to the prison Ruin was bound to?  If it wasn't his power, but his mind, that created Ruin's prison, could another Vessel alternatively give up his "feelings" or his "senses" to create something?

Vessels of shards don't have "senses" like the 5 senses that's a physical thing, Remember the times that Vin became preservation everything she did that was humanlike was just a projection and not really happening (like frowning).

"Feelings" is counted as part of the mind not a separate thing. 

I suggest you reread the last book of the trilogy(at least the epigraphs i guess) and secret history(more closely) i think it would probably answer alot of your questions. Well at least this works for me from time to time(like at the 2nd read of Stormlight Archives i finally understood the background stuff of it)

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But why would he choose this, knowing he had been working so hard to help the crew against Ruin?  It's seems very short-sighted, but I guess if he didn't have his full mental faculties, being short-sighted fits.

 Rashek has been fighting Ruin for around 1000 years with Ruin's influence but he still left to go the beyond even though he could stay and continually ensure the survival of mankind cause there is no doubt already that he loves the people in Scadrial but why leave then ? 

You seem to think that if can stay in the cognitive realm and not get sucked in the Beyond you can help up stuff without power like Kelsier does. No, Kelsier got lucky since he has preservation on his side. Without a shards help you can literally do nothing makes it worst if you are going against another shard. Might as well leave the premise. Besides you already know about Leras plans of making another person take up his shard and suicide against Ruin, there's really no point for him to stay since he has done his job. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by goody153

[VirtuousTraveller]

14 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Vessels of shards don't have "senses" like the 5 senses that's a physical thing, Remember the times that Vin became preservation everything she did that was humanlike was just a projection and not really happening (like frowning).

"Feelings" is counted as part of the mind not a separate thing. 

I appreciate your thoughts.  I was exaggerating on purpose - you said "feelings is counted as a part of the mind," but my point is, realmatically, what is "the mind?"  Did Leras, like Tanavast did in the Stormfather, create a semi-cognitive shadow (or spren-like splinter) in the mists?  Why would this require his mind versus the Investiture he possessed as a Vessel?

I'm thinking out loud, not arguing! :-P

[goody153]

1 hour ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I appreciate your thoughts.  I was exaggerating on purpose - you said "feelings is counted as a part of the mind," but my point is, realmatically, what is "the mind?"  Did Leras, like Tanavast did in the Stormfather, create a semi-cognitive shadow (or spren-like splinter) in the mists?  Why would this require his mind versus the Investiture he possessed as a Vessel?

I'm thinking out loud, not arguing! :-P

I don't really know how cognitive shadows manifest (i don't think Leras was a cognitive shadow at the point of Secret history) wasn't there also a theory that Devotion and Dominion formed cognitive shadow(maybe they get formed if the shard dies or something ? but nightwatcher is supposedly similar to what Stormfather is to Honor) or something(i read it from one of the theories here). Yeah i don't have the answers about those sorry lol

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/4/2016 at 11:50 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

I appreciate your thoughts.  I was exaggerating on purpose - you said "feelings is counted as a part of the mind," but my point is, realmatically, what is "the mind?"  Did Leras, like Tanavast did in the Stormfather, create a semi-cognitive shadow (or spren-like splinter) in the mists?  Why would this require his mind versus the Investiture he possessed as a Vessel?

I'm thinking out loud, not arguing! :-P

Well, the original problem was that Preservation had marginally less Investiture than Ruin. So he couldn't win a direct Investiture vs Investiture contest. He had to try something else, and somehow he used his mind/Cognitive Aspect rather than his power/Investiture.

As to how a Cognitive Aspect becomes a prison, we can only speculate. But we know Perpendicularities connect the Cognitive to the Physical, and Ruin's prison involved the Well of Ascension. In Secret History we see Ruin trapped 'under' or 'beyond' the Well. I'm thinking Leras "reinforced" the Well with most of his Cognitive Aspect -- this somehow messed with Ruin's existence across Realms, so that a piece of his power was separated off and manifested as atium in the Physical Realm.

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 10/8/2016 at 2:36 AM, cometaryorbit said:

this somehow messed with Ruin's existence across Realms, so that a piece of his power was separated off and manifested as atium in the Physical Realm.

Interesting...I suspect Kelsier is having the same issue that Ruin had - trapped in one realm but unable to move because his physical aspect has been destroyed/hidden.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

On 10/4/2016 at 11:16 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

3.  Is a Cognitive Shadow something intentionally created, or does this happen automatically?  

Well Nazh does let slip that Kelsier kind of "broke the rules" as he sees it. So there is almost definitely a process where you can choose to become a cognitive shadow. 

I was actually wondering since the Ire were on the lookout for shadows from Thronody at their fortress, if they meant the Shades(?) with The Rules, or just a regular cognitive shadow as we know it. I really want to see what the Shades manifest as in the cognitive realm.

[Angsos]

Since silver hurts, maybe they're warewolves