Shallan's sexuality

[Rogueshar]

I love that Shallan's been confirmed bisexual. I was very happy to hear that as a recently out bisexual person myself. There's so few literature about bisexuality and even if its only hinted at or subtext I'll take it. And I really love all the crazy ship names for Shallan and other female characters. This is just awesome!

[Argent]

In honor of this (now a little dated) revelation, I have two Tumblr posts for you. One about Brandon's growth as a writer, and one about (and I quote the attribution line) Shallan thirsty-like-the-rest-of-us Davar. The latter being a phrase that will stay with me for life.

[Yata]

I recently found a WoB about Roshar's Homosexuality as far as it says...On Roshar is not so problematic for the Vorin:

Quote

Yes, this varies widely based on the planet, and even culture, /u/TimAnEnchanter.

Roshar, for instance, has a lot of different perspectives on homosexuality. In Iri, the more religious segment (who believe that life is about new experiences) would approve, while the more rigid modern, secular society has outlawed it.

In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't t actually transsexual.)

Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

There are actually a couple of scenes in Book Three talking about it, for those who are interested, as the family and romantic relationships of the bridgemen are becoming a larger part of the story. (Still a small part, I should note, for space limitations.)

On Scadrial, it's going to fall between Pathian lines (each individual decides for themselves) and Survivorist lines (you follow church hierarchy, which forbids it.)

Don't even get me started on Bavadin's religions.

 

[Stark]

On 10/1/2016 at 3:51 PM, Sarevok said:

I was just thinking that as I was reading the thread. Especially male-male pairs would be a problem, since they'd have no one to read for them and would probably run into more problems along those lines.

I don't think it is necessarily a strong argument against.  If we use Adolin as an example, not all men care about reading, to the point where some don't even bother to learn glyphs.  So not being able to read will not stop someone.  

Spoiler

And, conversely, we have seen men learn to read in secret - Amaram with the glyphs language he was using.

With Adolin in specific as an example, we have seen that he often courts women in a very serial fashion, with very little embarrassment when the relationships go awry.  In fact he often seems more embarrassed that his father finds out, not concerned that the relationship is over.  But he is devastated when his friends don't stand by him.  One could find basis to argue that Adolin may have a more deep emotional connection to the men around him than women.

 

Which is not homosexuality.  But it could be a platform leading in that direction.

 

All this to say, I don't think that an inconvenience like not being able to be read to as easily will stop people from loving those they love, or from pursuing happiness.

 

In this at least, nothing is true, and everything is permitted, until Brandon writes it in metal.  

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

I recently found a WoB about Roshar's Homosexuality as far as it says...On Roshar is not so problematic for the Vorin:

 

Interesting WoB, but it however expresses a problem I have had on how Brandon chooses to include homosexuality within his stories. He did the same in Mistborn by stating it was entirely accepted, but we never glimpsed any character being overtly homosexual until this one scene with Ranette. In a world where homosexuality is open and accepted, you see it, on an everyday basis: you see two random men walking hand in hand, you see two women publicly kissing... You just see it, in the background. It is part of the descriptive narrative. So to have absolutely no mention of it only until the author decides to write a small snippet about one character being homosexual is not what I consider a satisfying way to bring about homosexuality, but YMMV.

I also have a hard time understanding how Vorinism could be "fine" with homosexuality considering the men and women have very distinctive work. I find the explanation within this WoB to be interesting but unsatisfying or perhaps incomplete would be a better term. I need more to truly see how it could work out, but I fear we will only get a few paragraphs on Drehy love life to wrap it up. Oh well, I'll stay posted for more on the issue, so hopefully it will come around nicely.

 

22 minutes ago, Stark said:

Which is not homosexuality.  But it could be a platform leading in that direction.

This comment is problematic for me. I strongly disagree with the notion of male friendship automatically being a launching platform for homosexuality. There is absolutely nothing in Adolin's behavior which suggests homosexuality. Just as many young men, he simply strongly values his male friendships and he perhaps expected them to be less futile than his many courtships. In other words, he thought he was one of the gang, but he realizes at some point, he isn't. They were all doing him a favor based on his lineage. 

I thus disagree Brandon could suddenly write Adolin as gay without clashing with the already written character. I mean, the guy spends two books courting women, being attracted to women, looking at women, wanting to be in a relationship with a woman and not once at men. If this isn't heterosexuality written in metal, then I dunno what is. 

[Yata]

7 minutes ago, maxal said:

Interesting WoB, but it however expresses a problem I have had on how Brandon chooses to include homosexuality within his stories. He did the same in Mistborn by stating it was entirely accepted, but we never glimpsed any character being overtly homosexual until this one scene with Ranette. In a world where homosexuality is open and accepted, you see it, on an everyday basis: you see two random men walking hand in hand, you see two women publicly kissing... You just see it, in the background. It is part of the descriptive narrative. So to have absolutely no mention of it only until the author decides to write a small snippet about one character being homosexual is not what I consider a satisfying way to bring about homosexuality, but YMMV.

I also have a hard time understanding how Vorinism could be "fine" with homosexuality considering the men and women have very distinctive work. I find the explanation within this WoB to be interesting but unsatisfying or perhaps incomplete would be a better term. I need more to truly see how it could work out, but I fear we will only get a few paragraphs on Drehy love life to wrap it up. Oh well, I'll stay posted for more on the issue, so hopefully it will come around nicely.

Maybe you may be right, but often we see only the "high class of Alethi society" therefore an high prude popolation and much more their top class where everyone give tons of relevance to apparences....Be the "perfect orthodox Vorin" may have a weight on them.

About the Adolin's sexuality, I actually can't see any clue about his possible homosexuality... As far as I may see He seems very interesting in the ladies' beauty (as shown with Shallan's case....the one we see more) and nothing in his relationship with others men seem to point into a bisexual interess.

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

Maybe you may be right, but often we see only the "high class of Alethi society" therefore an high prude popolation and much more their top class where everyone give tons of relevance to apparences....Be the "perfect orthodox Vorin" may have a weight on them.

About the Adolin's sexuality, I actually can't see any clue about his possible homosexuality... As far as I may see He seems very interesting in the ladies' beauty (as shown with Shallan's case....the one we see more) and nothing in his relationship with others men seem to point into a bisexual interess.

I understand Brandon does not want to have homosexuality as a main theme within his story, but I find his chosen approach unsatisfying. I find it would have been easy to drop in a few random mentions here and there: a given brightlord arriving at the feast with his husband, a small underlined comment about a given brightness having eloped with her wife or a comment about how lighteyes with husbands as opposed to wife did to have reading/writing support. These are elements which would have been easy to drop in, scattered among the main narrative, which would have served to explain the reader how Alethi views homosexuality without making it a main theme. Right now, I feel I am presented a world which should theoretically have problems with it, I have never glimpsed one homosexual relationship nor have I ever read the mention of one, but the author drops in the world is totally fine with it and promise one minor character will turn out being homosexual. 

I think my discontent might be linked to the fact I do live in a place where homosexuality is open and, for the most part, accepted. It is thus you see two men buying the house down the street, you see a homosexual couple expecting a child together, you see two women walking hand in hand or two men kissing at the park... These are just everyday common scenes which do happen without drawing any unrequited attention. In a world where homosexuality is accepted, opened and considered normal, I expect to see those things just as I see them in real life. It is why Brandon's approach does not satisfy me: I feel it would work better if his world had problems with it because it would imply people are hiding. However, if they aren't hiding, then where are they?

Adolin certainly is heterosexual. If he were openly dating me, staring at men, nobody would be arguing he might end up being heterosexual merely because he has a friend which happens to be a girl. For my part, it isn't just nothing in the character suggests homosexuality (or bisexuality), it merely is he is written out as heterosexual. Adolin likes women. Period. 

[DarkJester]

Ok. I'm short on time and can't read all of these posts right now, so maybe I'm missing something. Where does everyone get that Shallan is Bi? I've not seen anything to indicate this other than her helping Jasnah with her baths, and that was done in a servant like role. She acknowledges that Jasnah is attractive, but again you don't have to be bi to know that someone is considered attractive. There is a difference in knowing someone is attractive and being attracted to them. Honestly, if I were to assume that anyone in the story is  bi, or even lesbian, it would have been Jasnah... I don't see why everyone assumes Shallan is and completely ignores Jasnah in this respect. 

[Stark]

@maxalI must apologize I think, I was not looking to start an argument.  I was not trying to imply anything about any character's sexuality, which is why I took care to state that Adolin's relations are not homosexual, nor an indicator of being homosexual.  I should have taken care to state that in another character, they may have been indicative of someone who is still discovering themselves, especially in a younger character.  

 

I am not aiming to point fingers and say this character is x or y.  In Adolin's case, we know because we have been in his head that he gets bored, because many of the women have interest in him for his status as heir to the Kholin seat rather than as a person.  The whole courting thing becomes an exercise in rote disappointment as no one everyone seems to be interested in being with Adolin Kholin, the shardbearing heir, not being with Adolin, the person.  

 

I had no intention of saying friendship leads to romantic feelings, as that is a thought pattern that seems overly simplistic and dismissive of the many other reasons to be friends with someone.

 

And you are completely correct that if varied sexuality is accepted, we would have seen more of it in the background.  But I also get the feeling that if there had been a sprinkling of background mentions, there would be an entirely different set of complaints leveled because it would be a token addition to the background, unimportant to the main story, why is it included, etc. etc.  Safe to say that it is a touchy subject to approach.

 

I am pleased to know Shallan is who she is.  I tried to use Adolin as an example as what could maybe have been if he never met someone like Shallan.  I will disagree that a man appreciating a women's beauty by default makes him straight, you can appreciate beauty without having romantic or sexual interest.  But you are absolutely correct, and I have never doubted, that Adolin prefers women.  It is how he is written.

[maxal]

19 minutes ago, DarkJester said:

Ok. I'm short on time and can't read all of these posts right now, so maybe I'm missing something. Where does everyone get that Shallan is Bi? I've not seen anything to indicate this other than her helping Jasnah with her baths, and that was done in a servant like role. She acknowledges that Jasnah is attractive, but again you don't have to be bi to know that someone is considered attractive. There is a difference in knowing someone is attractive and being attracted to them. Honestly, if I were to assume that anyone in the story is  bi, or even lesbian, it would have been Jasnah... I don't see why everyone assumes Shallan is and completely ignores Jasnah in this respect. 

There is a WoB on the subject. Someone asked Brandon about how they felt Shallan could read as bisexual back in WoK and he agreed he might have made her sound this way. He was rather pleased other people felt they could identify with the character in such ways even if it wasn't his primary intentions when he wrote the scenes. I'll try to find the exact text. Many have taken it Brandon was confirming Shallan was canonically bisexual, but others took it he meant she could read as such, but he didn't plan it to happen.

However, I think we all agree if he wanted to go there with the character, it would probably work within the existing narrative.

10 minutes ago, Stark said:

@maxalI must apologize I think, I was not looking to start an argument.  I was not trying to imply anything about any character's sexuality, which is why I took care to state that Adolin's relations are not homosexual, nor an indicator of being homosexual.  I should have taken care to state that in another character, they may have been indicative of someone who is still discovering themselves, especially in a younger character.  

 

I am not aiming to point fingers and say this character is x or y.  In Adolin's case, we know because we have been in his head that he gets bored, because many of the women have interest in him for his status as heir to the Kholin seat rather than as a person.  The whole courting thing becomes an exercise in rote disappointment as no one everyone seems to be interested in being with Adolin Kholin, the shardbearing heir, not being with Adolin, the person.  

 

I had no intention of saying friendship leads to romantic feelings, as that is a thought pattern that seems overly simplistic and dismissive of the many other reasons to be friends with someone.

Oh you do not need to apologize. I may be a tad sensitive on the subject because I enjoy friendships story arcs and I dislike when they irrevocably turn out being romantic. This being said, poor Adolin has no friends, so he doesn't even have that. I would however state he isn't so young he wouldn't know if he had an attraction to men and I certainly feel it would have been noticed within his POV which is why I stated this particular character is written out as heterosexual.

We could have the discussion on another character not so clear cut within his desires/intentions, for instances, Shallan as per this thread's topic.

As for Adolin's problems with courtship, they seem to be various, but when asked about them, Brandon told us Adolin was unconsciously sabotaging all of his relationships because he feared he would not be good enough. In other words, it goes back to low self-confidence hidden under a great deal lot of bragging and mouthiness which often turns out being a defensive mechanism for extroverted people with confidence issues. Brandon also recently said Adolin didn't get a lot of attention growing up (he said Renarin had a lot and Adolin resented him for it) or something along those lines, so there, we can add one and one together. The kid feels he isn't up to the task so instead of committing and being found unworthy, he chooses to evade up until he falls in love, for real.

10 minutes ago, Stark said:

And you are completely correct that if varied sexuality is accepted, we would have seen more of it in the background.  But I also get the feeling that if there had been a sprinkling of background mentions, there would be an entirely different set of complaints leveled because it would be a token addition to the background, unimportant to the main story, why is it included, etc. etc.  Safe to say that it is a touchy subject to approach.

 

I am pleased to know Shallan is who she is.  I tried to use Adolin as an example as what could maybe have been if he never met someone like Shallan.  I will disagree that a man appreciating a women's beauty by default makes him straight, you can appreciate beauty without having romantic or sexual interest.  But you are absolutely correct, and I have never doubted, that Adolin prefers women.  It is how he is written.

This is an interesting comment and it highlights how different people may have different perspectives. I would prefer if I were to see it in the background as it would make it more real. I do feel having one minor "I am homosexual" disclosure moment is doing disservice and sounds like a "token addition", but I can see why other people would feel differently. It is thus, for my part, if it isn't to be a major theme, then I would rather see it evolving, in the background, as if it were normal, then to have it being used up as one liner with one inconsequential character. I understand others may see it differently and yes, it is a sensitive subject.

Oh we could have someone commenting on other people's beauty without any romantic feeling, but Adolin definitely has those. It is the argument most often use to explain how Shallan can state Jasnah is beautiful without necessarily being bisexual which she could end up being or not. It goes both way. 

[Pagerunner]

33 minutes ago, DarkJester said:

Ok. I'm short on time and can't read all of these posts right now, so maybe I'm missing something. Where does everyone get that Shallan is Bi? I've not seen anything to indicate this other than her helping Jasnah with her baths, and that was done in a servant like role. She acknowledges that Jasnah is attractive, but again you don't have to be bi to know that someone is considered attractive. There is a difference in knowing someone is attractive and being attracted to them. Honestly, if I were to assume that anyone in the story is  bi, or even lesbian, it would have been Jasnah... I don't see why everyone assumes Shallan is and completely ignores Jasnah in this respect. 

First post of this thread has the link, second post has a screenshot of the tweet in question.

[Stark]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

I do feel having one minor "I am homosexual" disclosure moment is doing disservice and sounds like a "token addition",

I agree with this sentiment.  I guess I was trying to express that it is a difficult subject to include without it appearing to either be token, or a statement of the author's beliefs, especially if it is added to a series later on.  I'm not having much success expressing myself today.

 

Done right, having something like homosexuality in the background would definitely make it more real.  Done wrong, it would feel token and trite.  That is what I meant to say.  It is one of those things that makes me glad that I am not a writer, as I have no idea how I would write it right and do the subject justice.

 

In either case, I seem to have knocked this thread into a tangent deviating from the original subject of Shallan.  I hope that if this becomes cannon (as the WOB implies it might) that Brandon can do the topic justice.  I just worry it may feel forced, as we have not really seen it addressed as anything more than a mention, and definitely not with a major character.

[maxal]

21 minutes ago, Stark said:

I agree with this sentiment.  I guess I was trying to express that it is a difficult subject to include without it appearing to either be token, or a statement of the author's beliefs, especially if it is added to a series later on.  I'm not having much success expressing myself today.

 

Done right, having something like homosexuality in the background would definitely make it more real.  Done wrong, it would feel token and trite.  That is what I meant to say.  It is one of those things that makes me glad that I am not a writer, as I have no idea how I would write it right and do the subject justice.

 

In either case, I seem to have knocked this thread into a tangent deviating from the original subject of Shallan.  I hope that if this becomes cannon (as the WOB implies it might) that Brandon can do the topic justice.  I just worry it may feel forced, as we have not really seen it addressed as anything more than a mention, and definitely not with a major character.

I agree with you. It is difficult. As an author, Brandon might want to include gender diversity within his stories without actually wanting it being a main subject of discussion. Starting from there, what would be the best way to do it? So far, the author has chosen to have one minor character openly declare his sexual orientation while having the others merely nod and accept it. I would have preferred if he kept the same moment while having taken care to include nameless POV-less characters evolving within the background being openly homosexual such as to transpose the idea the world is happy with it to the readers in a more inclusive manner.

Ranette, for instance, seemed too token-ish for my personal tastes, but YMMV. It also have to take into consideration this is the best the author is currently capable of doing.

As for Shallan, I personally doubt it will be canon, as Brandon clearly stated it never been his intentions. He also once said he wasn't comfortable having one of his main character being homosexual which might have to do with having to write the inner thoughts of a homosexual individual which might be something the author is not comfortable with. I thus sincerely doubt it will happen, but who knows, maybe Brandon will change his mind.

[Argent]

30 minutes ago, maxal said:

As for Shallan, I personally doubt it will be canon, as Brandon clearly stated it never been his intentions. He also once said he wasn't comfortable having one of his main character being homosexual which might have to do with having to write the inner thoughts of a homosexual individual which might be something the author is not comfortable with. I thus sincerely doubt it will happen, but who knows, maybe Brandon will change his mind.

It's less about comfort and more about Brandon being uncertain he do them justice. Better stay away from non-cis non-heterosexual PoVs until he do at least a reasonable job at portraying them. Or so he thinks, I believe. 

[maxal]

More on the subject... I am more satisfied with this answer as it does address a few points I have made.

Again, you're going to see a wide variety of attitudes and impressions here. Some are very deviant from society, while others are good expressions of it.

One thing I do downplay in the books is how often characters are terribly biased. Basically all the protagonists in the Stormlight books are, for example, HORRIBLE racists. I bring it up now and then to make sure the text, at least, knows this fact--but it's also something that, if I did with a dose more realism, would be very offputting. So I try to walk a line where it's an ugly thing that rears its head now and then, but it is still possible to like the characters, acknowledging they are products of a very different society from our own.

Views on homosexuality are the same. You'll see, for instance, that Sigzil has a problem with Drehy in Bridge Four. Similarly, some characters have more progressive views than their society, as I think would be realistic for the types of people they are. So you don't see as much from the text as there might otherwise be. Ranette's relationship is not quite as accepted in Scadrian society as Wax and Marasi's viewpoints would lead you to believe, for example.

In it, Brandon basically says not everyone on Scadrial would readily accept Ranette and he states Wax/Marasi's reaction is not to be used as a frame work to evaluate how the world views homosexuality. I am pleased with this answer because it indirectly answers my former questioning: "If homosexuality is considered normal and widespread, then why aren't we seeing it in a more normal fashion?". The answer is it isn't. It might not be shunned upon as in certain societies within our own world, but it isn't globally openly accepted either which explains why we only get to see Ranette. I however feel it would have been preferable had Brandon find a way to include such commentary within the story such as to give the readers a better context, but I am nonetheless pleased with this answer.

It is very interesting he specifies Sigzil does have a problem with homosexuality and I am pleased to read Brandon intends to have at least one character react to it. I am pleased because I find it more plausible within the existing world. I feel it will bring a more realistic take on the issue and I am keen on reading it, even if it is agreed it will be a very small arc. 

He also mentions we aren't seeing as much in text as they would normally be which is a good enough explanation. At least it gives me context which I drastically missed before.

It is also interesting he highlights the fact nearly all the protagonists are horrible racists: nearly all of them. It is interesting to read he is downplaying it in order to keep them sympathetic to our eyes, but reading how some readers react to Kaladin's open disdain of lighteyes (which has to be one of the strongest example) combined with other people being angry over the fact lighteyes feel entitled over the darkeyes within their societal context, I can certainly see why going stronger into this theme would have been off-putting for a significant proportion of the readership. 

All in all, I felt this was a very interesting comment by Brandon.

 

[RenegadeShroom]

@DarkJester If you're asking where people got the impression that Shallan was bisexual in the first place, ie before Brandon's tweet, it's more that the way she reacted to a select few (.... Jasnah) characters and the kind of lingering admiration and lengthy descriptions of physical beauty struck a chord with other readers who are either bi or gay women themselves, leading them to believe that she is bi. And as it turns out, yes, she is! 

[kari-no-sugata]

There's quite a bit of variation in how fans look at Shallan... so I guess it's fitting that there's quite a bit of variation in how Brandon's comment about Shallan are interpreted.

From all the Q&As etc I've seen with Brandon, he seems very open to fans interpreting the stories he writes in their own fashion. So I read Brandon's comments as being a mixture of that (he's totally fine with fans reading her that way) and also that he himself didn't consciously write her that way. A bit of both, really - not "wrong" but not intentional either. I think that if he intended her to be strictly heterosexual he would have responded in a different way.

I don't know if Shallan and Jasnah will even meet in Oathbringer but it'll be interesting to see how they deal with each other, regardless of any questions on sexual orientation. Personally, I would have no problem if the text made it abundantly clear that Shallan was bisexual or Brandon started saying that he was now actively writing her as bisexual but I'm not expecting either to happen. I would also say that the way she's attracted to Jasnah is quite different to how she's attracted to Adolin - with Jasnah, it's more like Shallan is idolising her with a sense of "we're not worthy!", with Adolin it feels more like "a dream that became reality" (on their first meeting it feels quite like "love at first sight", a few meetings later she's dreaming of kissing him and hoping to be with him long term and by the end she's eagerly kissing him).

I've seen a lot of examples of a relationship quite like that between Jasnah and Shallan in Japanese manga/anime/novels. Type 1 from here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneeSama

See also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_friendship

Overall, I see Shallan as someone who has a strong tendency to find something to like in everyone she meets (the longer she's with them the more likely) and in a very broad and general sense could be described as "beauty seeking", referencing what Wit/Hoid recommends she do in "Middlefest". I could easily imagine Shallan describing Jasnah as having a "beautiful mind", whether she found Jasnah to be physically attractive or not.

[maxal]

14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

From all the Q&As etc I've seen with Brandon, he seems very open to fans interpreting the stories he writes in their own fashion. So I read Brandon's comments as being a mixture of that (he's totally fine with fans reading her that way) and also that he himself didn't consciously write her that way. A bit of both, really - not "wrong" but not intentional either. I think that if he intended her to be strictly heterosexual he would have responded in a different way.

This is true. I have seen Brandon state how he wished for readers to edit his own stories to fit their personal preferences. In this optic, I felt he was saying readers were completely free to view Shallan as bisexual if it is their preferences, but it was also clear it wasn't his initial intention. I thus doubt canon will officially go down this way, but he is totally fine with readers thinking of her in such ways or not. Unfortunately, for those who would prefer "bisexual Shallan", it probably won't happen within the actual pages of the book, just as many other things other readers might want to read.

[IGetLIFTed]

Was she actually confirmed as bisexual? I thought Brandon just said that she had "latent bi tendencies." People talk about her fawning over Jasnah, but it's really about Jasnah's looks, so that could just be her admiring Jasnah, especially since she's an artist an has an eye for things that look good. Or she really is bisexual; I don't claim to know.

[StrikerEZ]

@IGetLIFTed Here’s the WoB for context:

Quote

Silverstars

Every time Shallan thinks about Jasnah it's so gay which is #relatable, @BrandSanderson did you realize how bi you wrote her?? Either way, thank you.

Brandon Sanderson

This wasn't directly on my mind while writing, but looking back, I think it was in my subconscious. I'm flattered to hear it.

General Twitter 2016 (Sept. 26, 2016)

So, not a direct confirmation, but I think it’s safe to assume that Shallan is bisexual, unless we’re told otherwise.

[RShara]

Mmmm delicious necro

[StrikerEZ]

8 hours ago, RShara said:

Mmmm delicious necro

Wow, normally I’m pretty good about spotting those, but I didn’t even notice this time.