Shallan's sexuality

[The One Who Connects]

Roshone

Quote

Roshone is sent from Kholinar to be the new citylord of the town Hearthstone, where the previous citylord, Wistiow, had died.[2]. From the very beginning he suspects that Lirin stole spheres from citylord Wistiow, and so treats Lirin and his family badly. Though there is a debate between Roshone and Lirin, it doesn't bring him a satisfying result.

Eventually Roshone and his son Rillir go on a whitespine hunt where both of them get badly injured. Lirin, Hearthstone's surgeon, does save Roshone's life but can't save Rillir.

When Brightlord Amaram, a distant cousin of Roshone, comes through the town to recruit, Roshone takes his revenge by deciding that Tien has to join the army. At this event, it is obvious that the daughter of former citylord Wistiow, Laral, who was supposed to marry Rillir, would now marry Roshone.

The original problem was probably autocorrect if they made the post on mobile.

[Sand Master]

Okay, but Roshone and Lirin never got married... Maybe they meant Laral and Roshone? In that case, I would argue that political marriages aren't supposed to include personal fondness for each other, so the age difference doesn't matter that much. All you're doing is tying your houses together, almost like making a trade agreement. I think that when it comes to actually being attracted to someone, age plays a bigger part.

[BlackYeti]

I think we need @If.you.die.I.go.stupid to explain exactly what they meant. They never said either Roshone or Laral, so whilst it might be a good guess, we can't really assume that that's who they were referring to.

[Quiver]

7 hours ago, Argent said:

Sorry, I am headcanoning Shallasnah too much to allow Shysn to exist.

I headcanon Jasnah as maybe-ace. 

Our ships are incompatible, even if they formed a Shysnah shaped fleet. So, I suppose this means war.

[RenegadeShroom]

Uh, in any case. Mutual Shasnah would be... I... wouldn't exactly be as fond of Jasnah anymore if she entered into a romantic relationship with a woman literally half her age who was also her student. >__>

Shasnah is best as a one sided hero worship crush, IMO. No incredibly sketchy power dynamic that way, heh. (Sorry Shallan :b)

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

I definitely meant Laral. Sorry about the confusion.  

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

1 hour ago, Sand Master said:

I would argue that political marriages aren't supposed to include personal fondness for each other, so the age difference doesn't matter that much. All you're doing is tying your houses together, almost like making a trade agreement. I think that when it comes to actually being attracted to someone, age plays a bigger part.

This is my point. Most would expect Jasnah and Shallan to have political marriages. Such marriages sometimes have a big age gap, so I doubt society would be shocked by the age difference.  They'd be more shocked that the two married for love instead of choosing a politically wise marriage.  I was assuming your age concern was about how society would respond.  It occurs to me that you may mean that two people with that age gap wouldn't fall in love.  I think the age gap would make it less likely but not implossable.  

[Sand Master]

1 minute ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

This is my point. Most would expect Jasnah and Shallan to have political marriages. Such marriages sometimes have a big age gap, so I doubt society would be shocked by the age difference.  They'd be more shocked that the two married for love instead of choosing a politically wise marriage.  I was assuming your age concern was about how society would respond.  It occurs to me that you may mean that two people with that age gap wouldn't fall in love.  I think the age gap would make it less likely but not implossable.  

I suppose. That is what I meant, and I was mostly basing it off the fact that if there were someone who I would otherwise be romantically interested in that was double my own age, it would definitely pretty much be a deal breaker for me. But to each their own I guess.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Roshone

The original problem was probably autocorrect if they made the post on mobile.

Yes,  I  typed Roshone and  didn't notice the auto correction.  Lirin instead of Laral was purely my own blunder. 

[Quiver]

Do we have any Word of Brandon on Alethi/Rosharan views of homosexuality, bisexuality, or any other queer themes?

[RenegadeShroom]

I imagine that since Brandon's confirmed that Drehy is getting a love interest in book three, we'll Alethi/Vorin attitudes about it on display then? No actual WoB yet about how their society treats it though.

[Erunion]

Nice to see a bisexual main character! 

Bisexuality is as common, if not moreso than homosexuality yet is represented far less in media (at least as far as I've seen. Except in WOT, but I'm not sure if that counts as bi or if it's just bi until graduation from magic college). 

 

But it I still ship Shadolin. Sorry guys. Shallasnah is just hero worship/a tiny crush. 

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, RenegadeShroom said:

I imagine that since Brandon's confirmed that Drehy is getting a love interest in book three, we'll Alethi/Vorin attitudes about it on display then? No actual WoB yet about how their society treats it though.

This has been bugging me... I am all for the inclusion of more queer characters, but shouldn't we be prepped on how Vorinism would view them before their introduction? I was very disappointed on how Ranette ended up being homosexual, well it isn't the fact she was (it was a known fact), but how it was brought up. I wouldn't want Drehy to suffer the same treatment. 

Am I weird for wanting a bit of context here within the story?

[Argent]

It seems like Brandon's books run along the lines of non-hetorosexuality being... well, just normal. There is nothing weird about it, so nobody is making a fuss about it. Stormlight might be in the same boat.

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, Argent said:

It seems like Brandon's books run along the lines of non-hetorosexuality being... well, just normal. There is nothing weird about it, so nobody is making a fuss about it. Stormlight might be in the same boat.

Yes but if it were the case, shouldn't the protagonists should stumble on more homosexual pairings? For instances, Wax and Marasi should have occasionally see such unions and randomly comment on them. It can't just be one sentence drop in the middle of nowhere on a given character without introducing any context at all. 

In the case of SA, I do not buy the idea Vorinism doesn't view homosexuality as something to hide, to be shunned for due to its traditional approach of segregating genders for. If it isn't the case then Shallan or Adolin or Dalinar should have had comments on those few same gender relationships which would surely exist in the open-air. For instances, you could have Adolin state how Brightlady XYZ never returned his advances because she preferred the company of women. It is also easy to include a few named example, stuff like rumor while having the character narrating it expressing his opinion on it. It is easy to give context and so far we have none. 

Brandon has said how Alethi didn't care about skin color which is why many characters having various skin tones do not get commented on: nobody cares, but representation is there. We have darker people, lighter people, we have all kind of people. Homosexuality? We have nothing, so if it is viewed as normal, then where is it?

[Sand Master]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Yes but if it were the case, shouldn't the protagonists should stumble on more homosexual pairings? For instances, Wax and Marasi should have occasionally see such unions and randomly comment on them. It can't just be one sentence drop in the middle of nowhere on a given character without introducing any context at all. 

In the case of SA, I do not buy the idea Vorinism doesn't view homosexuality as something to hide, to be shunned for due to its traditional approach of segregating genders for. If it isn't the case then Shallan or Adolin or Dalinar should have had comments on those few same gender relationships which would surely exist in the open-air. For instances, you could have Adolin state how Brightlady XYZ never returned his advances because she preferred the company of women. It is also easy to include a few named example, stuff like rumor while having the character narrating it expressing his opinion on it. It is easy to give context and so far we have none. 

Brandon has said how Alethi didn't care about skin color which is why many characters having various skin tones do not get commented on: nobody cares, but representation is there. We have darker people, lighter people, we have all kind of people. Homosexuality? We have nothing, so if it is viewed as normal, then where is it?

Yes, but the context for skin color is given because it helps describe the physical appearance of the character in question. You're not going to be introduced to a character and out of the blue see, "XYZ was a tall Makabaki man who also happened to be homosexual." It's not a topic that's going to come up often in conversation, and so we don't see it unless it's important.

[maxal]

Just now, Sand Master said:

Yes, but the context for skin color is given because it helps describe the physical appearance of the character in question. You're not going to be introduced to a character and out of the blue see, "XYZ was a tall Makabaki man who also happened to be homosexual." It's not a topic that's going to come up often in conversation, and so we don't see it unless it's important.

Not introduce in such way, but have any protagonist merely see a same gender couple walk by, casually stating: two men walking, hand in hand passed by, obviously on a date. It doesn't have to be anyone specific, but it has to be mentioned, somewhere. If it is open, if it isn't hidden, then it should just as casually observed when it happens in the same way as Kaladin is reflecting on Sigzil's skin tone. Of course, he wouldn't know people's personal preferences, but he would see same gender couple in the vicinity or he could comment on brightlord XYZ having scribes with him as he took a husband instead of a wife. Kaladin does reflect on how not having a wife was handicapping him as a Captain, it would have been a good place to have him push the reflection farther and wonder: "What do Captain who end up preferring a husband manage? Perhaps he should try and find one to see for himself.".

[Sand Master]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Not introduce in such way, but have any protagonist merely see a same gender couple walk by, casually stating: two men walking, hand in hand passed by, obviously on a date. It doesn't have to be anyone specific, but it has to be mentioned, somewhere. If it is open, if it isn't hidden, then it should just as casually observed when it happens in the same way as Kaladin is reflecting on Sigzil's skin tone. Of course, he wouldn't know people's personal preferences, but he would see same gender couple in the vicinity or he could comment on brightlord XYZ having scribes with him as he took a husband instead of a wife. Kaladin does reflect on how not having a wife was handicapping him as a Captain, it would have been a good place to have him push the reflection farther and wonder: "What do Captain who end up preferring a husband manage? Perhaps he should try and find one to see for himself.".

But in the examples you give where he's reflecting on Sigzil's skin tone, that has relevance and meaning to the story and characters that we know. If he randomly mentioned a same-sex couple walking down the street without actually doing anything with that couple, it would feel out of place. I think where the disagreement here really comes in is that you say, "it has to be mentioned, somewhere." I disagree. I'm sure people go to use the privy multiple times in the story. I'm sure that's accepted by society. It's not mentioned simply because it's not very important. Just because it exists and is accepted doesn't mean it must be mentioned.

[maxal]

Just now, Sand Master said:

But in the examples you give where he's reflecting on Sigzil's skin tone, that has relevance and meaning to the story and characters that we know. If he randomly mentioned a same-sex couple walking down the street without actually doing anything with that couple, it would feel out of place. I think where the disagreement here really comes in is that you say, "it has to be mentioned, somewhere." I disagree. I'm sure people go to use the privy multiple times in the story. I'm sure that's accepted by society. It's not mentioned simply because it's not very important. Just because it exists and is accepted doesn't mean it must be mentioned.

Our characters have seen several unions, couples and marriage: if same gender were considered normal, then some would have been seen. Perhaps not the example I have listed but in the feasts, Dalinar or Wit would reflect on how a given Brightlord has just arrived with his husband, for instance. My point is if it is normal, then it should be more widespread. 

Also within SA, with the gender rules they have, a stronger context has to be given.

[Jondesu]

Considering the way the Husband/Wife pair works for Lighteyes, a same-sex relationship would likely be severely handicapped in some critical ways. I can't see it being fully accepted and normal in Alethi culture, at least for lighteyes, due to that factor alone (otherwise we'd see more of that being worked around).

jW

[Krandacth]

3 hours ago, Sand Master said:

I'm sure people go to use the privy multiple times in the story. I'm sure that's accepted by society. It's not mentioned simply because it's not very important. Just because it exists and is accepted doesn't mean it must be mentioned.

Wile I agree with your general point, I believe Elhokar was stated to be in the privy

Spoiler

when Kaladin awakes just before Szeth arrives to assassinate Dalinar the first time in WoR

[Sand Master]

1 minute ago, Krandacth said:

Wile I agree with your general point, I believe Elhokar was stated to be in the privy

  Hide contents

when Kaladin awakes just before Szeth arrives to assassinate Dalinar the first time in WoR

Fair enough. Still, it seems unlikely that he's the only person to do so in the entire series. Other people have probably done so without it being seen on screen.

[Quiver]

9 hours ago, Sand Master said:

But in the examples you give where he's reflecting on Sigzil's skin tone, that has relevance and meaning to the story and characters that we know. If he randomly mentioned a same-sex couple walking down the street without actually doing anything with that couple, it would feel out of place. I think where the disagreement here really comes in is that you say, "it has to be mentioned, somewhere." I disagree. I'm sure people go to use the privy multiple times in the story. I'm sure that's accepted by society. It's not mentioned simply because it's not very important. Just because it exists and is accepted doesn't mean it must be mentioned.

Ya know, this is something I do wonder about when it comes to fiction. Is it better to call out stuff and show it is there, or better not to mention it at all and normalise it by not bringing attention to it.

(One society I'm considering for my own stories might encourage polyamory, so I do wonder about how to portray that)

I do agree with @maxal  that Vorin gender roles means we need a bit more context. It seems like the fact that only women can read and write would encourage male/female marriages as the norm...which raises the implicit question of how male/male or female/female relationships would work.

It might not be huge in the grand scheme, but it is a point I'm curious about. The Alethi are a warrior society, so would they regard two soldiers falling in love normal? What about two engineers?

Do lighteyes and darkeyes have different opinions? After all, darkeye women wear gloves to cover their safehand since that's just more practical. Would that mean darkeyes are opposed to homosexual relationships since it causes problems where literacy is concerned, whereas lighteyes can just afford to hire scribes to compensate?

Adding in Vorinism values makes it an even more complicated topic, which is why I'm curious how it's addressed. 

Though, the above is just for Vorinism. It might be that in Alethkar, homosexuality is viewed as strange or the kind of repressive thing you don't talk about, while other societies might be more open about it. We haven't spent enough time with other cultures to really judge that.

[Jondesu]

4 hours ago, Quiver said:

Though, the above is just for Vorinism. It might be that in Alethkar, homosexuality is viewed as strange or the kind of repressive thing you don't talk about, while other societies might be more open about it. We haven't spent enough time with other cultures to really judge that.

I would expect in the Reshi Isles at least, it'd be a non-issue.

jW

[JUQ]

This debate is sort of meaningless. Brandon probably forgot all about it, okay? He said it was a sort of subconscious thing with Shallan being bi.

As a conservative Christian, I accept the traditional understanding of marriage as being between a man and a woman, and this makes me prejudiced against people who are attracted to those of the same gender. I know this view is frowned upon by society, but I do better than most people do by admitting it. However, this prejudice makes me fairly ignorant about same-sex relationships, and I do not want a debate about LGB equality, but rather to continue the interesting discussion about Shallan's sexuality. If my below assumptions are entirely wrong, don't hesitate to tell me. If one of my siblings or friends was bisexual or homosexual (unlikely, but still possible) I would support them no matter what.

I think it's cool that Shallan is bisexual. Homosexuals are seen a lot in other works of fiction, but the only other fictional bisexual person I can think of is that Dornish dude from Thrones (forgot his name). However, I don't see a Shallan/Jasnah sexual relationship developing, really. It seems more like some of the other male/female relationships that Brandon uses in his books, like Vin/Kelsier. Maybe it's just my prejudice clouding my vision.

I personally see Jasnah as asexual (a love of airplanes, apples, and other things beginning with the letter A ).

(Second paragraph was largely copied from Comatose's suggestion)

Edited October 2, 2016 by The True Survivor
Making post less offensive