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Overstorm

Feruchemical grouping in regard to Hemalurgy

Question

It seems I forgot various details and because of that I was under impression that for a group of four metals two steal human attributes, one steals Allomantic powers tied to metals in this group and one steals Feruchemical powers tied to metals in this group.

It would work like that: tin and iron steal human attributes, while steel/pewter spikes steal Allomantic/Feruchemical powers of iron, steel, tin and pewter.

This is clearly not the case. We know that since pewter steal Physical Feruchemical powers, it can also steal Feruchemical gold. (HoA epigraphs number 36 AND a WoB). But... many of the Feruchemical powers are Physical... how does that work?

How are Feruchemical metals grouped? Which spikes steal which powers?

Metal/Feruchemical power/Spike type
Iron:          Weight                - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (probably)
Steel:        Physical speed   - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (confirmed - Inquisitors had this power)
Tin:           Senses                - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (probably)
Pewter:     Strength              - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (confirmed - Inquisitors had this power)

Zinc:          Mental speed      - Mental attribute : Brass spike     (speculation)
Brass:        Warmth               - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (speculation)
Copper:     Memories            - Mental attribute : Brass spike      (speculation)
Bronze:      Wakefulness       - no idea. It can be both physical and mental. Probably mental, it'd fit nicely and complete mental attributes.

Cadmium:  Breath                 - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (speculation)
Bendalloy: Nutrition               - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (speculation)
Gold:         Health                  - Physical attribute : Pewter spike (confirmed - Inquisitors had this power + epigraphs + WoB)
Electrum:   Determination      - Mental attribute : Brass spike     (speculation)

Those four are clearly Spiritual powers, so we don't know what spike to use:
Chromium: Fortune
Nicrosil: Investiture
Aluminum: Identity
Duraluminum: Connection

So it seems that all of base metals Feruchemy is covered by three spikes (Physical powers, Mental powers, Spiritual powers). But going off what we know about Hemalurgy, there is bound to be four spikes of base sixteen stealing Feruchemical powers...

EDIT: The question is: can Feruchemical powers even be grouped properly into four even groupings? Especially considering the fact that 'Hybrid' powers are in fact Physical powers and that one of them, Feruchemical gold is stolen by a pewter spike which makes it a Physical power?

Edited by Oversleep
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10 answers to this question

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I have some news (or to be more precise I will have some news soon).

Someone (maybe from this forum) replied to my Tweet to Peter with a specific istance of MAG's Hemalurgy not equal from Canon Hemalurgy...And Peter said He would check this issues.

Hemalurgy Tweet- MAG VS Book.jpg

I will update this message as soon as I get a further answer

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1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

I have literally no idea where that Hemalurgic property of gold is coming from, as it is not sourced and entry for gold states it is not known what does it steal.

The only thing on coppermind about that is the page for Hemalurgy you linked and it has no sources whatsoever. And if it comes from MAG, it's noncanon (but it is not sourced to MAG).

I apologize for not elaborating in "tracing back the sources" and not updating the link. The H-property, and the source to the MAG, is on the Metallic Arts page

Quote
Gold Shows the burner's past Stores health Steals Physical Feruchemy[3]

 

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Actually Oversleep there are 4 metals to store all the 16 Feruchemical Power

Hemalurgic Pewter stoles: Iron, Steel, Pewter and Tin Feruchemy (Feruchemical Physic powers)

Hemalurgic Brass stoles: Zinc, Brass, Copper and Bronze Feruchemy (Feruchemical Mental Powers)

Hemalurgic Gold stoles: Gold, Electrum, Cadmius and Bendalloy Feruchemy (Feruchemical Hybrid Powers)

Hemalurgy X (we don't know for sure) stoles: Aluminium, Duraluminium, Chormium and Nicrosil Feruchemy (Spiritual Powers)

 

I see no problem here. Other than the old "error" made in the book and unluckly made canon with the Electrum and Brass (their effect were switched in the book)

Brass have to be Determination (a Mental Power) and Electrum have to be Heat (an Hybrid power)...But in the book they are switched

Edited by Yata
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The second Physical section is also called Hybrid. Gold spikes steal Feruchemical Hybrid.

Tracing back the sources it leads to the MAG, just so that is clear.

 

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8 minutes ago, Yata said:

Hemalurgic Gold stoles: Gold, Electrum, Cadmius and Bendalloy Feruchemy (Feruchemical Hybrid Powers)

The thing is we have it confirmed (as I sourced in the originial post) that Feruchemical gold is stolen by pewter spikes. And I don't recall any WoBs about spikes stealing electrum, cadmium or bendalloy.

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The second Physical section is also called Hybrid. Gold spikes steal Feruchemical Hybrid.

Tracing back the sources it leads to the MAG, just so that is clear.

I have literally no idea where that Hemalurgic property of gold is coming from, as it is not sourced and entry for gold states it is not known what does it steal.

The only thing on coppermind about that is the page for Hemalurgy you linked and it has no sources whatsoever. And if it comes from MAG, it's noncanon (but it is not sourced to MAG).

Edited by Oversleep
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22 hours ago, Oversleep said:

MAG is noncanon.

Why does everyone assume the MAG is not canon!?  It is canon except when stated otherwise. From the MAG (emphasis added):

Quote

Series author Brandon Sanderson has even provided commentary and original fiction, and approved this as an official expansion of the setting, making this the biggest addition to the canon outside the novels themselves.

 

FWIW, here is what the MAG specifically says for gold:

Quote

Gold: Steals the victim’s temporal Feruchemy, granting your Hero 1 Feruchemical Power chosen from the Temporal Metals (Gold, Electrum, Cadmium, or Bendalloy), and reducing his or her Spirit by 1. Costs 2 × the Feruchemy rating your Hero gains (e.g. if you want to add Bendalloy 5, you must spend 10 Advancements).

 

 

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On 18.09.2016 at 6:31 PM, Argel said:

Why does everyone assume the MAG is not canon!?  It is canon except when stated otherwise. From the MAG (emphasis added):

Probably because its revelations are later changed in books (like nicrosil Feruchemy) and it has mistakes. Some I pointed:

On 17.09.2016 at 7:58 PM, Oversleep said:

and even if it were canon, it says gold steals Physical Feruchemy (not Hybrid as you said) which already is a function of pewter spikes. I have a very hard time believing there are two spikes which work exactly the same way. And there are no WoBs supporting that.

and some you quoted:

On 18.09.2016 at 6:31 PM, Argel said:

Gold: Steals the victim’s temporal Feruchemy, granting your Hero 1 Feruchemical Power chosen from the Temporal Metals (Gold, Electrum, Cadmium, or Bendalloy),

Gold is healing and its a Physical power as it is stolen by pewter spike; electrum is determination, cadmium is breath, bendalloy is nutrition. None of these powers are 'temporal'. Feruchemy isn't even categorized the way Allomancy is, there is no 'temporal' quadrant!
The only 'temporal' power we could say Feruchemy has is Feruchemical atium (and since it's a physical change, it's probably also physical).

EDIT: Even Brandon admits it's noncannon:

Quote

Most of the things in the RPG books relating to the metals that you don't see in the books fall under the "We need to make a game out of this somehow, Brandon" clause. I've told them they can extrapolate if they want, but that I wouldn't consider their extrapolations cannon.
source

 

Edited by Oversleep
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I just sent a tweet to Peter asking if The MAG is canon in this specific istance. I hope He would answer it

Actually I never doubt notice that our Hemalurgy chart was filled with MAG material...For months I proposed there are some errors (and I thinked it was Khriss fault/misunderstunding) In the Hemalurgic chart....This may be the clue about this (but if I have right to steal Feruchemical Hybrid power you have to use an Electrum or Bendalloy Spike)

Edited by Yata
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I recived a not-aswer...I am trying to push the question more deeply (I am very unluckly to recive answers from Peter):

Quote

Yata:  Mistborn doubt: The MAG states Hemalurgic Gold steals Feruchemical Gold, Electrum, Cadmium or Bendalloy. Is it canon ?

Peter:  Do you have a reason to doubt it?

Yata:  well the tested quadrants show that pure metals steal Attributes and Alloys steal Powers ...The other quadrant are weirds,

Yata:  I have the doubt it was realizated in this way for MAG to made possible to steal A&F's powers with the known Era1's metals

 

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5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I apologize for not elaborating in "tracing back the sources" and not updating the link. The H-property, and the source to the MAG, is on the Metallic Arts page

Still, it's noncanon as it comes from MAG... and even if it were canon, it says gold steals Physical Feruchemy (not Hybrid as you said) which already is a function of pewter spikes. I have a very hard time believing there are two spikes which work exactly the same way. And there are no WoBs supporting that.

I already accepted coppermind to be a little untrustworthy, so we need either book reference, WoB or annotation. MAG is noncanon.

Edited by Oversleep
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