Tsidqiyah Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 On 9/15/2016 at 10:32 AM, Cealque said: ok, I get the crossbow bolt killed him and his soul left his body and is gone why then repair his body. I am sure that the Resealer could have told them before he did it the it would not work so why do it? We know the Grands are not up to snuff when it comes to realmatic theory so maybe they weren't aware of the severing of the soul and that he was dead, and were hopeing for the best. But now i have a question i thought the forgery didn't rewrite the spirit web but simply changed they way something thinks about itself, leaving a physical sign of the change (the stamp), but if the change is outside the limits of the spirit web the change can't stick as evidenced by the stamp puffing away. Remove the stamp and the old way of thinking returns, again here the implication is that is the change was held long enough it might be permanent. do we have evidence besides the title the the change is in the spiritual realm? It is not uncommon for people in our world to survive head wounds but be very different cognitively. my reading was that they wanted to repair this difference. As such my thoughts are that she was rewriting the brain damage, and recreating the cognitive links not the spiritual ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Tsidqiyah said: But now i have a question i thought the forgery didn't rewrite the spirit web but simply changed they way something thinks about itself, leaving a physical sign of the change (the stamp), but if the change is outside the limits of the spirit web the change can't stick as evidenced by the stamp puffing away. Remove the stamp and the old way of thinking returns, again here the implication is that is the change was held long enough it might be permanent. do we have evidence besides the title the the change is in the spiritual realm? It is not uncommon for people in our world to survive head wounds but be very different cognitively. my reading was that they wanted to repair this difference. As such my thoughts are that she was rewriting the brain damage, and recreating the cognitive links not the spiritual ones. Forgery does change the way something thinks about itself. However, without a soul, and with the present physical and cognitive wanting to have a spiritual to compliment, the essence mark could apply to replace it, I imagine. In no way was the essence mark being used on the emperor permanent though, or was going to be. He would have to reapply it every day until he dies, or he'll revert to his soulless self. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Forgery does change the way something thinks about itself. Nope, that seems to be Soulcasting - convincing the object it's something else. But Forgery rewrites the history of the object, its Spiritual Aspect. ... I just had a realmatic realization. THEORY TIME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Just now, Oversleep said: Nope, that seems to be Soulcasting - convincing the object it's something else. But Forgery rewrites the history of the object, its Spiritual Aspect. ... I just had a realmatic realization. THEORY TIME! Eh... I mean, you are changing how the object is viewing itself as a result of changing its history. The main thing is that it isn't a voluntary change, and the target may not realize it occurs. But at the same time, the object has to, on some level, accept the change for it to stick for some period. At least, that's how I understand it. If someone rewrote my past so I got in a tragic, but non-lethal accident involving a car, and as a result I decided I would no longer want to be in a car, then my new self would be changed to think about itself as not liking cars. In general, I do agree it is a rewrite that is bound by constraints on how varied the changed can be. I was just helping it match how the person I was answering understood it. If you have an issue with the outlook of it changing how an object sees itself, please don't correct me as I don't really ascribe to that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 FWIW, I asked about Ashraven's soul on Twitter and got my first RAFO: Quote Argel: Did Shai have to Forge a soul for Ashraven's body because his actual soul had gone to the Great Beyond? Brandon: Rafo! Now I feel like both celebrating and hitting my head against a wall!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 47 minutes ago, Argel said: FWIW, I asked about Ashraven's soul on Twitter and got my first RAFO: Now I feel like both celebrating and hitting my head against a wall!! Interesting. Now I'm wondering whether it's a RAFO because he's going to explain it in the future and doesn't want to directly reveal things about Forgery, like it can create Returned-like entities minus the extra investiture, or because essence marks are going to be significant in the future in general. In any case, the answer to your follow-up question is probably going to be RAFO as well, I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakeke Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) On 9/12/2016 at 8:02 PM, dragonshadowbob said: So I was just re-reading Emperor's Soul when suddenly, a thought hit me. The entire premise of the book is that the emperor's brain was injured in an attack and healed. The twist is, he was essentially rendered a vegetable. Shai's job is to Reveal hidden contents Use a forgery to re-write the emperor's personality to be normal again. What I realized is that soulstamps just rewrite an object's history... so, why not just rewrite the emperor's history so that the arrow hit him in the shoulder, or didn't strike him stupid. Is there any real need to give him a new personality? Speaking of which, how does that work? My impression was that Shai's stamp was made to change the emperor's history to make his personality similar to his old, pre-injury one. But, why does she need to rewrite his entire history? His personality was fine up untill the brain injury, so I think it would just be easier to make the injury less severe, or hit somewhere else so the emperor's brain wasn't damaged. Did I read the entire plot wrong or does it just not make sense? I just finished re-listening to the Empereror's Soul audiobook and was wondering the same thing myself. I decided that she probably could have -- if she wanted to. When she uses her essence mark, her hair shortens and her nearsightedness disappears (by offhandedly mentioning in the forging a history that her eyesight had been treated). So it seems possible for a Forger to change a person's body without the advanced medical training of a Resealer. The thing is, I don't think a soulstamp override can "inherit" very much from the target's natural unmodified state. What makes it so difficult is that the Forger has to rewrite the target's entire history in a way that isn't too far off from its actual history. So a stamp that said "everything was the same except the Emperor sneezed and the arrow hit his arm" wouldn't hold for very long -- because instead of "everything was the same" you'd have to actually spell out everything leading up to that moment (and then you're back to the original problem). The key I think is in the epilogue, where we learn that Spoiler Shai could have finished the job of fixing the Emperor weeks earlier, but she kept on working to create a true masterpiece -- to subtly guide Ashravan to be a better man. There were probably countless shortcuts such as this one Shai could have taken, but then her work would have been nothing but a crude hack -- much like the mass-produced historic replicas she so disdained. Edited October 1, 2016 by Harakeke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 20 hours ago, Harakeke said: The thing is, I don't think a soulstamp override can "inherit" very much from the target's natural unmodified state. What makes it so difficult is that the Forger has to rewrite the target's entire history in a way that isn't too far off from its actual history. So a stamp that said "everything was the same except the Emperor sneezed and the arrow hit his arm" wouldn't hold for very long -- because instead of "everything was the same" you'd have to actually spell out everything leading up to that moment (and then you're back to the original problem). No. You don't have to include all of the history in the stamp, only the bits you want to overwrite. Extensive knowledge of the history of the object makes it way easier to know what can be changed, how, and how much. When Shai Forged the wall, she only programmed the details of the painting and that the artists actually did paint it. She didn't have to write in all the history of the wall; the knowledge bit kicks in that she had to actually know that the artist was there, was sick but no sick enough to not be able to paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) FWIW, here's an excerpt of the Ashravan specifics: comment reply[Oathbringer Spoilers] Stormlight Three Update #4 from mistborn via /r/Stormlight_Archive sent 18 hours ago argel1200 (me): Regarding Ashraven... Would it be correct to say that memories are part of the mind/CR aspect? Assuming so, was Shai forging a new CR aspect to in-effect reconnect Asharaven's Soul (SR) with his body (PR)? I was thinking this could explain how she got his mannerisms correct -- i.e. that those are timeless SR aspects, so she didn't really get those right but instead, the SR connection was re-established? Brandon: Regarding Ashrovan: The problem here is that I don't want to get too deep into these sorts of things, for reasons that I want aspects of the magic to remain subject to discussion for a while yet. Suffice it to say that when we talk about Returned and lifeless in Warbreaker sequels, you'll have more ammunition for understanding what happened in Emperor's Soul. Edited October 4, 2016 by Argel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 I think that what happened was the Resealers were given a choice: leave the Emperor's body to die with his Soul and memories intact, or to heal the body and mind, effectively erasing the connections to the soul. If Shai had been more medically experienced and on site during the assassination, I think the OP's suggestion would work. However, she wasn't, so the Resealers in essence overwrote his soul with a blank, uninjured, healthy but vegetative brain. Shai then had to come in for damage control. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC01 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I think that the simplest answer to this question is that Shai couldn't rewrite the Emperor's history because his soul was not there anymore to have its history rewritten. I don't know that significance of what she accomplished is immediately apparent. When she rewrites a chair's history, the soul that she modifies is just barely comparable to a human soul. Similarly, the soul in the Emperor's body, the one she Forged, could hardly be called human. It still had a soul (obviously, since the Forgery worked), but it had to be much more like a chair's soul than the now-absent human soul that once inhabited it. She rewrote the Spiritual history of a vegetable and turned it into a human one. That is pretty major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts