Kaladin and Shallan

[Mr. Staccato]

On 3/11/2017 at 10:35 PM, maxal said:

Shallan/Renarin used to be the leading ship prior to WoR release. My personal thoughts are it was made possible due to gaping holes left within both of their characters after WoK. Ever heard of the Standing OC trope? I feel a lot of Renarin discussions, especially those at the times of WoK, were digging heavily into it. In other words, the tropes call for a barely fleshed out characters, one with a few leading lines being established, but not much else, which catches the interest of fans thus proceeding to fill-in the holes with whatever they wish to read.

Well, I guess I can live with that explanation...

But honestly though, I already knew that there was going to be a problem with the pairing ever since it was thought of - first and foremost fact of course being that there was little to no precedence for such a pairing to occur in the first place judging from the last few books - but to be fair, there is a lot of room for anything to occur between them, so I'm still going to hold out for a little bit.

Oh and I'm not being persistent btw. I find Renarin and Shallan pairing up perfect because not only is Shallan one of the most dangerous main characters in the series as of the moment due in part to her hidden strength, moral flexibility (there's a better word for this -  I just can't find it), and her more-than-a-little-bit reckless drive to achieve what she wants achieved (which, compared to the other current radiants pretty much cements her in an area of moral ambiguity), but also because she is wracked with a sort of destructive guilt that is far more incriminating and sinister in nature than the rest of the cast.

Renarin meanwhile is meek, sickly, and although he is far from complacent, I get the feeling that Shallan would find him a little bit weak (please oh please do not let Feather get wind of this). But if there's one thing Renarin has that Shallan doesn't, it's that Renarin is a far more forgiving and accepting person than she is. He does not seek to rebel against his illness nor does he let it define him - instead he acts with what he has and he looks out for people bare of any discriminating or judgmental lenses. Renarin could be Shallan's catalyst to self-acceptance. Although this is possible with Kaladin and Adolin as well, they both have unique takes to the concept and none of them really tie in as well to the idea of self-acceptance.

Then again, this is just me rambling on and on. Maybe Shallan will find acceptance somewhere else - maybe she doesn't even need it. *shrugs*

Anyway if this never happens, I'm still elated by the idea of Renarin and Drehy (no matter how unlikely that idea might also be).

As for the idea of Kaladin and Shallan, I think I'm with @sonNeturo and @maxal. I see whatever the two of them have building up between each other ending up with an acknowledgement of each others' feelings but never pursuing anything in the end - this is because Kaladin is rapidly being built up like a hero whose inevitable faith is to pitch himself over a mountain with the end goal of sacrificing himself for the betterment, of mankind or whatnot (and even if that doesn't really happen, Kaladin is a little too intense and driven by his oaths to ever fully consider a life out of the context of his own), and because I find it unlikely that Kaladin will actually be able to persuade Shallan out of her recklessness because the act in itself would be hypocritical of him. And also, and yes this is the most superficial reason I have - the relationship they symbolize is kinda, er, dare I say it? Well, it's overrated.

If the ship does sail though - I think a lot of things have to change first with the circumstances they're in in order for it to be feasible.

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Staccato said:

this is because Kaladin is rapidly being built up like a hero whose inevitable faith is to pitch himself over a mountain with the end goal of sacrificing himself for the betterment, of mankind or whatnot (and even if that doesn't really happen, Kaladin is a little too intense and driven by his oaths to ever fully consider a life out of the context of his own), and because I find it unlikely that Kaladin will actually be able to persuade Shallan out of her recklessness because the act in itself would be hypocritical of him.

I hope not. I'd never forgive Sanderson if he pulls a "heroic death" on Kaladin. I think that because of this intensity, Shallan is perfect for him, because he wouldn't have to worry about protecting her. She's a storming KR for Damnation's sake. She can protect herself. But that theory could also work for Lift, who, I hope, will refound the Order of Edgedancers really soon. The more I think about it. The more I'd like to see a Kaladin/Lift relationship. It would probably be fun as hell to read.

 

If you want to use spoilers for Edgedancer please mark them as such. I haven't finished it yet.

Edited March 16, 2017 by SLNC

[maxal]

12 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

Well, I guess I can live with that explanation...

But honestly though, I already knew that there was going to be a problem with the pairing ever since it was thought of - first and foremost fact of course being that there was little to no precedence for such a pairing to occur in the first place judging from the last few books - but to be fair, there is a lot of room for anything to occur between them, so I'm still going to hold out for a little bit.

Oh and I'm not being persistent btw. I find Renarin and Shallan pairing up perfect because not only is Shallan one of the most dangerous main characters in the series as of the moment due in part to her hidden strength, moral flexibility (there's a better word for this -  I just can't find it), and her more-than-a-little-bit reckless drive to achieve what she wants achieved (which, compared to the other current radiants pretty much cements her in an area of moral ambiguity), but also because she is wracked with a sort of destructive guilt that is far more incriminating and sinister in nature than the rest of the cast.

Renarin meanwhile is meek, sickly, and although he is far from complacent, I get the feeling that Shallan would find him a little bit weak (please oh please do not let Feather get wind of this). But if there's one thing Renarin has that Shallan doesn't, it's that Renarin is a far more forgiving and accepting person than she is. He does not seek to rebel against his illness nor does he let it define him - instead he acts with what he has and he looks out for people bare of any discriminating or judgmental lenses. Renarin could be Shallan's catalyst to self-acceptance. Although this is possible with Kaladin and Adolin as well, they both have unique takes to the concept and none of them really tie in as well to the idea of self-acceptance.

Then again, this is just me rambling on and on. Maybe Shallan will find acceptance somewhere else - maybe she doesn't even need it. *shrugs*

This is interesting. So your views are you feel someone like Renarin would balanced out Shallan's self-denial. It isn't I disagree with the premise, but why Renarin? Of all characters he appears to me as one who hasn't even begun to accept his condition, much less learn how to live despite it. I am afraid I read the character in a very different manner as I didn't get Renarin refused to let his illness define him, I read him as someone who refuses to go beyond what he cannot do (caused by his sickness), who refuses to look at alternate paths, who stubbornly closes his eyes and/or spit on any possibilities other than soldering. Mine, I have always found Renarin's obsession with soldering slightly unsettling: not everyone is a soldier, even Adolin didn't choose soldering as a Calling. Even Adolin speaks of how he became a soldier out of need, not out of desire. He mentions having been reluctant at first... which isn't surprising considering he hates hunting. So why would Renarin obsess so much over it when his own brother isn't so keen on it is truly baffling. Just because Vorinism states it is the highest Calling? I find it a weak motivation, so hopefully we'll learn more within the net book.

This being said, I find Renarin to be strong when it comes to facing physical discomfort, but he is weak when it comes to facing his own personal issues. Also, he isn't a pragmatic individual nor a particularly pro-active one: when faced with a difficulty, he has the tendency to just drop out, to stop trying. Finding a solution never seems to be among his natural responses. I am unsure this would meddled well with Shallan pro-active personality which I find works quite well with Adolin down-to-Earth pragmatism and the "I will do what I can even it is small" mentality he seems to have.

I have always thought Shallan's growth would pass through her accepting other people might care enough about her to worry and to want to protect her which isn't the same as locking into a golden cell.

12 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

As for the idea of Kaladin and Shallan, I think I'm with @sonNeturo and @maxal. I see whatever the two of them have building up between each other ending up with an acknowledgement of each others' feelings but never pursuing anything in the end - this is because Kaladin is rapidly being built up like a hero whose inevitable faith is to pitch himself over a mountain with the end goal of sacrificing himself for the betterment, of mankind or whatnot (and even if that doesn't really happen, Kaladin is a little too intense and driven by his oaths to ever fully consider a life out of the context of his own), and because I find it unlikely that Kaladin will actually be able to persuade Shallan out of her recklessness because the act in itself would be hypocritical of him. And also, and yes this is the most superficial reason I have - the relationship they symbolize is kinda, er, dare I say it? Well, it's overrated.

If the ship does sail though - I think a lot of things have to change first with the circumstances they're in in order for it to be feasible.

 

I don't think Kaladin dies an heroic death nor do I think he will die: too many readers expect it which makes me think it won't happen. 

For my part, to make Kaladin/Shallan feasible, I would require Kaladin to shrink down to a supporting role, or at the very least a less prominent one, within the upcoming story. Already, I feel the story revolves too much around him, he occupies too many pages, if he becomes the main love interest, then we might as well be reading the Kaladin Archive. Thus it is absolutely required, for this ship to sell, to have Kaladin move down to a less "visible" role.

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

I hope not. I'd never forgive Sanderson if he pulls a "heroic death" on Kaladin. I think that because of this intensity, Shallan is perfect for him, because he wouldn't have to worry about protecting her. She's a storming KR for Damnation's sake. She can protect herself. But that theory could also work for Lift, who, I hope, will refound the Order of Edgedancers really soon. The more I think about it. The more I'd like to see a Kaladin/Lift relationship. It would probably be fun as hell to read.

 

If you want to use spoilers for Edgedancer please mark them as such. I haven't finished it yet.

I love Kaladin/Lift. This ship has so much potential. 

[Unhinged]

On 3/16/2017 at 7:06 PM, maxal said:

I love Kaladin/Lift. This ship has so much potential. 

I'm not so sure those two could work  but who knows personally I think Lift/Renarin would be an awesome pairing. Think about it the socially awkward streetwise thief and the quiet bookish prince... wait this sounds familiar.

[Erai Sedai]

22 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

Think about it the socially awkward streetwise thief and the quiet bookish prince... wait this sounds familiar.

Hahaha this made me chuckle

[Yitzi2]

I don't see Kaladin/Shallan getting along significantly better than honorspren and cryptics.  Of the characters we've seen so far, I think Lift is definitely the most plausible match for Kaladin.

[Vissy]

I want to see Kaladin and Shallan get together and then I want to see their relationship fail. And that's when Lift shows up. Kappa

[maxal]

Here is a new WoB with respect to the love triangle:

Q: Will there be love triangle between Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. (It was mostly fun question and small hope that he will say spoilers and give me RAFO card ;P, I guess I should ask about Yolen or Dalinars wife for that)

A: Sanderson - not rly love triangle, more like confusion of teenagers about fact who they are attracted to.

[Guest]

Someone on reddit pointed out, that during an interview with a Spanish website, Brandon said that Kaladin won't even have a romantic arc.

Quote

In Stormlight I decided that my love story would be between the middle-aged people, not the kids. Kaladin does not have a romance, Shallan does but there is a twist involved, Dalinar and Navani are the ones having a romance. People who are in their forties and fifties fall in love all the time, kids pretend that it’s all about them! But I can’t say more, because I’m playing with some tropes that would give spoilers.

So, I guess, we can consider this case closed, unless what he meant with Stormlight is the currently released books or books 1 - 5 and not the complete series.

Edited March 22, 2017 by SLNC
grammar errors

[geralt]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

Here is a new WoB with respect to the love triangle:

Q: Will there be love triangle between Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. (It was mostly fun question and small hope that he will say spoilers and give me RAFO card ;P, I guess I should ask about Yolen or Dalinars wife for that)

A: Sanderson - not rly love triangle, more like confusion of teenagers about fact who they are attracted to.

That sounds like a love triangle to me, but then again maybe Brandon's implying that it's not one because it won't get much further than Shallan contemplating who she prefers for a while to then realise she actually cares for Adolin, while her feelings foe Kaladin were just fleeting

[maxal]

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

Someone on reddit pointed out, that during an interview with a Spanish website, Brandon said that Kaladin won't even have a romantic arc.

So, I guess, we can consider this case closed, unless what he meant with Stormlight is the currently released books or books 1 - 5 and not the complete series.

This isn't the first time this passage is shown. I have a few comments to make on it.

First, he doesn't say if he is referencing to the existing Stormlight Archive books or if he is including all future ones. Reading the context of the question makes me think he is referring to the existing main narrative where the stable romance arc is in between Dalinar and Navani. Kaladin arguably has no romance within both WoK and WoR, but he will have flashbacks focusing on his love story with Tarah...

Second, Brandon has been closed lips as to where he might take the Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin love triangle. He has repetitively stated not to expect a "traditional love triangle" which likely meant reading Shallan alternating in between loving both men. He spoke of it, recently, as teenagers not really knowing whom they love which is slightly different. Anyway, my point is we are at book 2 of a 10 book epic fantasy series: it seems rather spoiler-y, not to forget premature, to state there would be no other romance arcs but Dalinar/Navani for the remaining of the series.

Third, he has changed his mind several times over when it comes to romance. Shallan wasn't supposed to be engaged to Adolin which means this particular story arc wasn't meant to exist, but he wrote it anyway. Who's to say he won't change his mind again?

Fourth, if Brandon meant for Dalinar/Navani to be the main romance ship, then he has utterly failed. Nobody is talking about them and I would wager many readers do not even care all that much, but we are all speculating about Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin. There is a reason why most love stories feature young people: young people are more passionate, more emotive and create more drama. I have nothing so to speak against Dalinar/Navani, but from my perspective, I find them bland, boring and flavorless. They do not stir any emotions within me, be it positive or negative, as there are no stakes attached to their "love story". The fact they had presumably loved themselves since forever is somewhat lost within the main narrative and it doesn't help Navani is a cold slightly pinched nose dismissive woman. Yes, I believe Dalinar did love her, but I sincerely wonder why. 

It is thus, I do not put much faith into this one answer as it does have a context and taking it to the wide sense to simply remove all potential romance arcs which aren't Dalinar/Navani seems like a rather premature reaction, not to forget I honestly doubt Brandon wouldn't write more for Shallan, Adolin, Kaladin or any other character. 

I definitely do not consider the case "closed".

 

[Krandacth]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

... if Brandon meant for Dalinar/Navani to be the main romance ship, then he has utterly failed. Nobody is talking about them and I would wager many readers do not even care all that much, but we are all speculating about Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin. There is a reason why most love stories feature young people: young people are more passionate, more emotive and create more drama.

I do not agree that he has failed. Brandon is focusing on a realistic middle-aged romance, in the full knowledge that such a relationship is not usually full of the "excitement" of general insecurity, uncertainty, and tentative exploration of new and unusual feelings.

They are, instead, full of specific insecurity and tentative behaviour due to personal inhibitions born, not of inexperience but of experience (read: baggage). While the experience of romance is no longer "new" in the general sense, the situations of the participants make everything in the specific romance new and exciting for them; tensions are introduced that, while different from those in traditional, more generally-relatable first-love romances, are just as impactful.

Unfortunately, as all aspects that make the romance exciting are more specific than in "young" romance, they are potentially less easy to engage with, and so would not make good content for a romance novel, whose readers generally want to live vicariously through the hero/heroine. However, that is not the necessary purpose of romance in epic fantasy, and I personally was just as invested in the development of Dalinar/Navani as in any of the more hypothetical ships being floated.

On the other hand, their story has basically stabilised, so I struggle to see how it will continue to be as engaging, going forward, as the pseudo-triangle of Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin, which is still in flux.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Krandacth

[maxal]

11 hours ago, Krandacth said:

I do not agree that he has failed. Brandon is focusing on a realistic middle-aged romance, in the full knowledge that such a relationship is not usually full of the "excitement" of general insecurity, uncertainty, and tentative exploration of new and unusual feelings.

They are, instead, full of specific insecurity and tentative behaviour due to personal inhibitions born, not of inexperience but of experience (read: baggage). While the experience of romance is no longer "new" in the general sense, the situations of the participants make everything in the specific romance new and exciting for them; tensions are introduced that, while different from those in traditional, more generally-relatable first-love romances, are just as impactful.

Unfortunately, as all aspects that make the romance exciting are more specific than in "young" romance, they are potentially less easy to engage with, and so would not make good content for a romance novel, whose readers generally want to live vicariously through the hero/heroine. However, that is not the necessary purpose of romance in epic fantasy, and I personally was just as invested in the development of Dalinar/Navani as in any of the more hypothetical ships being floated.

On the other hand, their story has basically stabilised, so I struggle to see how it will continue to be as engaging, going forward, as the pseudo-triangle of Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin, which is still in flux.

What I meant by "failed" is the fact the Dalinar/Navani romance has occupied much less page time and have created much less discussions than the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin one. If Brandon meant for it to be "the major and only" romance arc within Stormlight, then he has failed. This hardly is the first thread where romance is being discussed, be it here or on Reddit and/or on the Tor.com. It has been one important subject of discussion and within those discussions, the Dalinar/Navani romance has occupied in between none to very little time.

In other words, Brandon might have wish to focus on a middle-age romance, but his readers are more interested into the young people's romance which isn't surprising. I personally feel he would create many discontent if he were to definitely ditch all other romance arcs to focus exclusively on Dalinar/Navani as while fantasy technically does not need romance, a significant percentage of readers do wish to read it. Romance arcs within fantasy books is one often discussed subjects on places such as the Fantasy subreddit.

For my part, as I said, I have little to no interest within the Dalinar/Navani romance arc. Former lovers who took different paths only to meet up again in their older years is a trope which works when you are given the context of how this first love came to be. In Stormlight, we have none. We are basically told they have loved each other since forever, but we were never privy to how it happened, how it played out and, more importantly, why did they love each other so much they still want to be together. I personally do not feel the love, I tend to read Navani as a desperate opportunist whom might have some feelings towards Dalinar, but who's actions are mostly linked to her need to find a relevance within the Alethi political apparel now her husband is dead. Maybe she really loves him, he probably really loves her, but I don't care so much. I don't care because Dalinar being with Navani has no impact onto the main narrative and no purpose except keeping Navani around so she could explain fabrials to us, the readers. 

I personally do not find the Dalinar/Navani romance to be impactful and/or meaningful. It doesn't need to be there, it could be remove and the story would essentially read the same way, but remove the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin one and you lose a great chunk of WoR. A very good chunk I might say.

Also, as you have said, they are "stabilized". They are probably going to marry, but honestly, I would find it anti-climatic to read it because it isn't them I wish to see tie the knot. It isn't required. It isn't needed. Marriage adds nothing to their relationship, but since Brandon is a very religious individual, he is probably going to write it. If he does write it, I hope, at least, he won't have Adolin be stupidly pleased by it, I hope to read him feel the pain because it should have been him.

Besides, there is another very real reason why most romances feature young people, because young people need to get together in order to shire the next generation. Needless to say if the future of SA has every single one of our young people to remain eternally single, I will be annoyed. There need to be a second generation within the second arc, there need to be a future and this future doesn't belong to Dalinar/Navani, it belongs to their kids and their grand-children.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

[...]

Also, as you have said, they are "stabilized". They are probably going to marry, but honestly, I would find it anti-climatic to read it because it isn't them I wish to see tie the knot. It isn't required. It isn't needed. Marriage adds nothing to their relationship, but since Brandon is a very religious individual, he is probably going to write it. If he does write it, I hope, at least, he won't have Adolin be stupidly pleased by it, I hope to read him feel the pain because it should have been him.

[...]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why should Adolin be hurt by his father marrying Navani? They are the one with the stabilized relationship, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin is very, very uncertain.

[Landis963]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why should Adolin be hurt by his father marrying Navani? They are the one with the stabilized relationship, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin is very, very uncertain.

Because Adolin feels he's failed his non-combat duty to his family, and his father marrying for the second time will only drive that home.  

[maxal]

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why should Adolin be hurt by his father marrying Navani? They are the one with the stabilized relationship, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin is very, very uncertain.

Because Adolin is still unmarried at 23 years old which is considered a small-scale scandal within the Alethi society. A significant proportion of his story arc has been developed around him needing to marry, a significant proportion of his mental thoughts has gone towards this need to marry. It is the one aspect of his life where he knows he has constantly failed. Of course, Adolin has not yet cross the threshold in between "hopeful each new relationship will be the right one" and "desperate as no one wants him", but he seems rather close and if Shallan breaks it up with him...

Thus, when it is Dalinar who ties the knot, for a second time, despite not really needing to, it might be the straw which'll break the camel's back. It will be one additional thing to add onto Adolin's already filled out plate, another source of worry/pressure.

Taken individually, it isn't overly significant, but grouped with everything else which is happening to Adolin, it might form one gigantic finger pointing directly at him screaming: "You are unworthy of being your father's son.".

Also, as a rule of thumb, weddings are events which will prompt people to reflect onto their own marital states. Hence, it isn't rare for single individuals, especially those having lived many failed relationships, to feel depressed/bummer/desperate/disillusioned upon seeing the happy couple, more so if this couple is someone close to them they never expected to see getting married.

Thus, if Brandon write the event as one big happy one for everyone, I will be disappointed because it shouldn't be happy to Adolin. It should get him to think about his own failures, to feel sadden, to feel it is wrong because it should have been him. It is his wedding they should have been celebrating because they have all expected it for years, but it isn't coming.

Dalinar/Navani wedding is a bittersweet potential story arc, because it isn't them who needed to marry, it isn't them we needed to marry and it happening will only remind Adolin of his own failures.

Kudos to @Landis963 for beating me to answer 

[Zea mays]

Is Adolin not being married yet really such a big scandal?

I seem to recall mention somewhere that it is perfectly OK for high-ranking,  Light-Eyed men to marry (high-ranking, light-eyed) women much younger than themselves, if the match is deemed advantageous. Sure, he has a duty to one day produce an heir, but for him, the clock is not ticking so fast.

At one point, Amaram of all people berates Adolin for being fickle in his affections. Thing is, who is Amaram to talk? How old is he? Old enough to be considered a good match for 34 year-old Jasnah. Has he ever been married? I somehow doubt that old King Gavilar would try to match his only daughter with a recent widower.  Many people speak about Amaram throughout the two novels, but absolutely no one criticizes him for being a bachelor.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Zea mays said:

Is Adolin not being married yet really such a big scandal?

I seem to recall mention somewhere that it is perfectly OK for high-ranking,  Light-Eyed men to marry (high-ranking, light-eyed) women much younger than themselves, if the match is deemed advantageous. Sure, he has a duty to one day produce an heir, but for him, the clock is not ticking so fast.

At one point, Amaram of all people berates Adolin for being fickle in his affections. Thing is, who is Amaram to talk? How old is he? Old enough to be considered a good match for 34 year-old Jasnah. Has he ever been married? I somehow doubt that old King Gavilar would try to match his only daughter with a recent widower.  Many people speak about Amaram throughout the two novels, but absolutely no one criticizes him for being a bachelor.

Adolin implies it is on his first date with Shallan. He also mentioned how nearly everyone he knew, including those younger than him were married. Dalinar also mentions how others were wondering why he allowed his son to roam into his twenties yet unmarried. Obviously, there are men whom marry at a later age, such as Dalinar, but they aren't, typically, heir of a princedom. That's the key here, Adolin's position demands he marry at a very young age and the fact he hasn't is a small scandal, not a big one, but it is cause for wonder and discussion. 

Amaram is an enigma, I agree. He might have been married, his wife might have died for all we know. He might have sought to marry Jasnah as a second wife and, more importantly, he might not be the heir of his house. The way he speaks to Adolin though, suggests he has been married.

Considering Jasnah already was an old bachelor by the time old king Gavilar tried to match her with Amaram, he might have certainly considered an older widowed man, especially if this man is a close ally. There probably weren't many suitable high-ranked enough men within their late twenties still available to marry Jasnah whom aren't widowed as I doubt she would have even glanced at a younger man. She seemed to think most of them were foolish at the feast: she didn't seem to hold many people within her esteem so, at least, Gavilar tried to put her up with someone sounding smart he approved of.

[joesleepsalot]

On 8/25/2016 at 3:53 PM, maxal said:

Why me? What did I do?  I have absolutely not been involved within those discussions  At all. Never. Whenever I write about this subject, it gets very lengthy  

Literally laughing out loud

[maxal]

As incredible as it might sound, I actually spent a week without noticing this one:

Q: Will Kaladin and Shallan get together? 
A: There will be Shalladin moments in Oathbringer.

Ah.... Well... I have no comments other than it bodes very badly for Adolin/Shallan and it bodes very well for Kaladin/Shallan.

 

[kaellok]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

As incredible as it might sound, I actually spent a week without noticing this one:

Q: Will Kaladin and Shallan get together? 
A: There will be Shalladin moments in Oathbringer.

Ah.... Well... I have no comments other than it bodes very badly for Adolin/Shallan and it bodes very well for Kaladin/Shallan.

 

[Calderis]

I am genuinely displeased. I like all 3 of the characters in this triangle, and damnation do I hate love triangles. If there's going to be conflict between Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin, I would like it to come from a source other than a romantic competition. Bah. 

[Guest]

Well "moments" doesn't mean much, except maybe building up that "confusion triangle-thingy" Brandon mentioned earlier...

Though I do agree, that it does not bode well for Adolin/Shallan in the long run, seeing how they practially already are in a relationship and if these Shalladin moments turn out to be indeed romantic... Ah damnation, what a mess.

Edited April 5, 2017 by SLNC

[maxal]

Yeah, it is a massive bummer for all of us who didn't like the Kaladin/Shallan relationship/dynamic, no matter what our reasons to dislike it where.

This being said, on a more positive side (because we have to try to find one, huh?), it does bode well for my "Shallan will break up with Adolin" theory or the reverse. While I have been a heavy Adolin/Shallan shipper, I never thought these two would roam free of trouble on calm sea. I always thought to pierce down Adolin's armor, when it comes down to relationships, to have him progress up to a point where he can engage in one would require a bit more work than just a pretty red head batting her eyes at him while making him laugh. Thus, I never thought these two would be IT until much later within the series: I always thought these two would first break up. 

Will it be Shallan or Adolin who will ruin it? I suspect Adolin. Shallan has shown no indications whatsoever to break up with Adolin, she seemed rather content to be with him which has been one of the Adolin/Shallan shipper argument. Most people always thought everything would pass through Shallan, but looking into Adolin's character, it seems more plausible he would be the one to ruin it, just as he ruined every single one of his pass relationships. It doesn't matter how hard he might be crushing on her, Adolin can't do relationships, not yet, he will destroy it. 

Adolin has basically sabotage every single one of this relationships before any could demand to put himself out there, to open-up, to talk about himself in a genuine manner, to remove his armor. Why would it be different now? Why would he suddenly feel secure in this particular relationship, especially now Shallan is a Radiant and him a code-breaking murderer?

I say, Adolin will break up with Shallan and/or will create occasions for Shallan to dump him out of feeling unworthy and not "good enough" (those were Brandon's exact words) for her. Brandon said he wouldn't do a "traditional love triangle" and a traditional love triangle would imply Shallan oscillating in between Kaladin and Adolin, thus I think this won't happen. Instead, I suspect Shallan will go and re-kindle things with Kaladin after Adolin drops her. She'll be confused as to who she loves and well, what her conclusion might be, I have no idea, but Shalladin moments do not mean he will be the end game. It just means it will be explore.

As for Adolin, well, looks like this will be a very hard book for him. He'll be... miserable. He lost his horse, he lost his girl, he lost his family. Will he lose his Shards as well? So yeah, tough times ahead for him.

[Guest]

I'm actually a Kaladin/Shallan shipper, so I should be happy, but I really can't be, because of how I loath "traditional" love triangles, but I also hate teen angst in my books. I really hope it will just be honest confusion on Shallans side and no crem dung bouts of anxiety and remorse.

I also think they will break up first, but tbh, I don't really see how that is any different from a traditional love triangle should Adolin and Shallan actually come together again in a future book. Sure, there is the oscillating factor, but too many break ups make break ups seem meaningless. I hope Brandon doesn't overdo them.

22 minutes ago, maxal said:

As for Adolin, well, looks like this will be a very hard book for him. He'll be... miserable. He lost his horse, he lost his girl, he lost his family. Will he lose his Shards as well? So yeah, tough times ahead for him.

Indeed. Man, I really don't pity him right now.

Edited April 5, 2017 by SLNC