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Kaladin and Shallan


Xaklys

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On 25/08/2016 at 5:09 PM, scifan said:

I tend to wonder when Shallan will "realize" that Kaladin's the one who actually killed her brother Helaran...  

As soon as Kaladin thinks he has a chance so that Shallan can get back to properly wooing Adolin, because they are incredibly cute together and she deserves better than Frowny McSlavebrand. ;) Not that I don't like him better when he's feeling less depressed, but I think people want them together more for Kaladin's sake than Shallan's. And she actually seems happy with Adolin, so unless there's a natural reason Shallan isn't happy, I kinda want them to stay together. Especially as the idea of Adolin going from being the Big Shardbearer On Campus to the playing second fiddle to his fianceé and being the only one alive in his family who isn't either a royal or a Radiant greatly amuses me and strikes me as an excellent character arc for him to deal with.

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12 hours ago, maxal said:

Simply because people appear as the perfect match, on paper, does not mean they are going to work in real life. There is something to be said about the "mate ideal" many young people try to flesh out.

It never is the right one.

It's fiction mate. Destiny and all that crap happen all the time in fiction. Plus i was just really recalling that poster that had a well-thought out post about those observation but i forget who he was and which thread

Edited by goody153
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It's probably also good to remember that Shallan would be risking screwing over her family pretty hard if she got with Kaladin.  The ghostbloods have her brothers, and the ghostbloods are probably very pleased that the agent they are trying to groom (Shallan) is getting pretty tight with the royal family.  If she seriously started sniffing around Kaladin they'd probably shut her down pretty quick with blackmail and threats.

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Kaladin and Shallan? Really? I am Kaladin/Syl all the way!

On a more serious note, they might have a chance with Adolin's..... interesting choice at the end of Words of Radiance. I still don't quite like it just, because of what Shallan is and what Kaladin is, and the views they have of each other's groups.

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I just really want something to go down in the romance department with Eshonai. I think that Adolin is the best candidate for that to happen, so i have no real objection to Kaladin/Shallan. On the other hand, Eshonai/(Rock or Lopen) would also be really weird yet interesting to read.

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Eshonai and Adolin does seem like an easy fit.  Good point about the Ghostbloods, though Kaladin is likely going to be a well-known KR, so ties to him may not hurt either. Hard to say without knowing the goals of the Ghostbloods. I really hope we learn more about them in SA3. I'm tempted to order something from the Brandon website just so I can ask for some new Ghostblood information.... :angry:

Edited by Argel
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No matter how the pairings end up, I think Shallan and Kaladin will gain a deeper understanding of each other's situations. Kaladin at least knows that being a lighteyes didn't make Shallan's life a walk in the park, and once he starts humanizing one member of the "other", he might start seeing other lighteyes as people too.

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On 8/25/2016 at 6:26 PM, muco said:

I have read that scene many times but the chasm scene is anything but romantic.

There are couple of snippets in the books which shows that Kaladin is jealous of what Adolin & Shallan have. It could be a longing of having something similar or longing for Shallan.

We get quite a few POV of Kaladin and if he was serious about Shallan, it would have been apparent.

 

Looking at the compatibility as well, there is no way Kaladin can get around with all the lying Shallan needs to do.

I disagree.  While it is obvious that Shallan hasn't put much thought into any feelings she may or may not have for Kaladin, Kaladin has even if it is a little bit.  He just wanted her to smile at him and notice him after what they went through in the chasms.  Also, there are still eight books to go and yes I know that Brandon is doing a character shift after book five but that doesn't mean that Kaladin and Shallan won't be around.  They have plenty of time to let their feelings build and we can see where it goes.  My personal favorite scene in the book is when they were in the chasms together (though the Kaladin v Szeth fight is a close second).  Shallan is my favorite character as well and I just don't see her and Adolin lasting.  While yes, she is interested in him, it seems more as a novelty and something she thinks she's supposed to do.  Not saying that she doesn't like him, because she is obviously attracted to him.  But she seemed to have a little less scripted attraction to Kaladin even though it was much more minimal at that time.

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Just now, Argel said:

Yeah, but it's an arranged marriage to Adolin -- how is that not supposed to feel somewhat scripted?

You're right, I'm literally just speculating right now and stating my opinion.  I'm very into the Shalladin ship and I want it to happen, but that's just me.  I'm just going off of my interpretation of her relationship with Adolin.

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I don't really want to see the Shalladin ship doing anything but sinking. 

Because I think it would be way cool to see a Shalladin non-romantic relationship. Working together as friends, or like siblings. It just seems to fit their characters so much better. 

 

That and I totally ship her with Adolin. Let the nice guy win this one by being generally nice and competent, instead of having another broody mcgloomalot be oh so alluring and attractive. 

Edited by Erunion
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15 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

For some reason I just have something against Shallan + Kaladin. On the other hand, I feel that Adolins character could go some really cool ways if Shallan abandons him. So... we shall see.

I wouldn't mind Adolin doing a dark arc followed by a redemptive one, or something like that. 

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On 27/08/2016 at 6:15 PM, Erunion said:

I don't really want to see the Shalladin ship doing anything but sinking. 

Because I think it would be way cool to see a Shalladin non-romantic relationship. Working together as friends, or like siblings. It just seems to fit their characters so much better. 

 

That and I totally ship her with Adolin. Let the nice guy win this one by being generally nice and competent, instead of having another broody mcgloomalot be oh so alluring and attractive. 

You do realise that you just called an unrepentant murderer a "nice guy," right? I mean, I agree with you that Shalladin should hit an iceberg or something, but come on. Adolin has more to him than being just a cheery extrovert, it's the reason he's a viewpoint character at all.

I mean, sure, he has a sunnier disposition, but Adolin has his own dark side and all. He's not a "nice guy" in anything but the Nice Guy™ branding kind of way.

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6 hours ago, Ari said:

You do realise that you just called an unrepentant murderer a "nice guy," right? I mean, I agree with you that Shalladin should hit an iceberg or something, but come on. Adolin has more to him than being just a cheery extrovert, it's the reason he's a viewpoint character at all.

I mean, sure, he has a sunnier disposition, but Adolin has his own dark side and all. He's not a "nice guy" in anything but the Nice Guy™ branding kind of way.

Great... Now I have the Titanic song stuck within my head :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r: I am mentally imaging Kaladin and Shallan doing the famous "I am the king of the world" scene :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r: Of course, Adolin is the evil rich fiance :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

This is why it is so trope-y: Hollywood has spend millions of dollars convincing us money rimed with evil, boredom and chronic unhappiness -_-

Unfortunately, the reason Adolin is a viewpoint character isn't because there is more to him nor because he is particularly interesting, but because he adds to the story while not demanding too many page times. In other words, the story is better because he is in it, but he isn't a character with sufficient depth to require a tighter focus. It may thus be the author will prefer pairing Shallan with Adolin merely to avoid having to duplicate POV time: it isn't required to have what Adolin thinks, but if she were with Kaladin, then he would have to write both viewpoints.

 

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8 hours ago, Ari said:

You do realise that you just called an unrepentant murderer a "nice guy," right? I mean, I agree with you that Shalladin should hit an iceberg or something, but come on. Adolin has more to him than being just a cheery extrovert, it's the reason he's a viewpoint character at all.

I mean, sure, he has a sunnier disposition, but Adolin has his own dark side and all. He's not a "nice guy" in anything but the Nice Guy™ branding kind of way.

I disagree here. Firstly, it's not established that he's unrepentant. 

Secondly, I think it's fascinating that he snapped because he seems in every other situation to be a genuinely good person. This is the guy who seems to consistently uses his position of authority and power to help the abused and underprivileged of society (see rescuing the prostitute, just because he could, and treating he with respect throughout). He is kind to those he meets regardless of station, supports his quasi-fiancée through his own quiet, unassuming competence (there's a great discussion of this in the last few chapters of the TOR reread, where Adolin quietly arranges for everything Shallan needs so she's not distracted by small concerns). 

Every interaction we see him have with his underlings is respectful, kind and generous, and as far as I can tell it's all natural to him: not an air he puts on to impress people. 

He appears to be a genuinely kind, generous, warm-hearted person. 

Then he snaps and murders a dude. A dude who IS an unrepentant murderer and manipulator, one who will gladly sacrifice the greater good for his own personal benefit, one who can only be described as a foolish, selfish villain. And crucially, someone who is impossible to prosecute, who considers himself above the law and will use force to ensure that he is. 

So Adolin takes the law into his own hands and kills him. 

Which is a FASCINATING character arc, one I really hope Sanderson explores in depth! 

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1 hour ago, Erunion said:

I disagree here. Firstly, it's not established that he's unrepentant. 

Secondly, I think it's fascinating that he snapped because he seems in every other situation to be a genuinely good person. This is the guy who seems to consistently uses his position of authority and power to help the abused and underprivileged of society (see rescuing the prostitute, just because he could, and treating he with respect throughout). He is kind to those he meets regardless of station, supports his quasi-fiancée through his own quiet, unassuming competence (there's a great discussion of this in the last few chapters of the TOR reread, where Adolin quietly arranges for everything Shallan needs so she's not distracted by small concerns). 

Every interaction we see him have with his underlings is respectful, kind and generous, and as far as I can tell it's all natural to him: not an air he puts on to impress people. 

He appears to be a genuinely kind, generous, warm-hearted person. 

Then he snaps and murders a dude. A dude who IS an unrepentant murderer and manipulator, one who will gladly sacrifice the greater good for his own personal benefit, one who can only be described as a foolish, selfish villain. And crucially, someone who is impossible to prosecute, who considers himself above the law and will use force to ensure that he is. 

So Adolin takes the law into his own hands and kills him. 

Which is a FASCINATING character arc, one I really hope Sanderson explores in depth! 

Great post here. I agree with all of it though I must admit Adolin's quiet competence and selflessness in wanting to care for others before himself did made me wonder if there is anyone out there to care for him... I mean, in the scene you are referring to, Adolin is the one who got injured, he is the one who had been fighting for hours and he is the one who receive not one, but several trashing. By my personal estimation, he needed those blankets and the quiet down time more than Shallan, but he doesn't take it. Sure, it is admirable, but I certainly do not want Adolin to erase himself behind Shallan's greatness simply because it is within him to forget his own self. I'd want him to have a spouse who would see to his needs as well... Shallan missed the chance right here: she could have turned back one of the blankets, for him. It would have been sweet... but instead she is making the statement she'll take all that Adolin is willing to give to her without giving anything in return. 

I don't like it when I over-analyse those scenes as this isn't a tangential I wish for their union to take. Hopefully, Shallan will realize relationships work both ways: Adolin is givng out a lot for her, it is time she gives some for him. If she truly cares about him, then this would be the next step. 

The snapping was a great arc to trust Adolin's character into. The nicest, kindest and most selfless character gets to do the most horrible killing on the show. Classic, but terribly effective if the author gives it the appropriate focus. The supposedly strong, normal and over-confident dude ends up being the most vulnerable as he is the one to crack under the pressure. He's the one who couldn't take the rapid changes the arrival of the Radiants are causing, he's the one who couldn't deal with the additional stress of Sadeas's threats and it was all very fascinating indeed.

I really hope Sanderson explores it in its full depth, but based on what he said lately, it doesn't seem likely :( He just thinks Adolin isn't a character which needs to be at the forefront, he thinks the character doesn't need a stronger focus nor more page time. He thinks he works very well, as a supporting character, he thinks he adds a lot to the story without demanding much which is why he isn't compel to write more of him. He doesn't think it is required because he doesn't feel Adolin has secrets nor layers to uncover. 

Obviously, I couldn't disagree more as all of those posts where several readers have discussed Adolin proves one thing: there is much to be said about the character and he does have unsuspected depth. Sadly, the author doesn't agree. At all.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Erunion said:

I disagree here. Firstly, it's not established that he's unrepentant. 

Secondly, I think it's fascinating that he snapped because he seems in every other situation to be a genuinely good person. This is the guy who seems to consistently uses his position of authority and power to help the abused and underprivileged of society (see rescuing the prostitute, just because he could, and treating he with respect throughout). He is kind to those he meets regardless of station, supports his quasi-fiancée through his own quiet, unassuming competence (there's a great discussion of this in the last few chapters of the TOR reread, where Adolin quietly arranges for everything Shallan needs so she's not distracted by small concerns). 

Every interaction we see him have with his underlings is respectful, kind and generous, and as far as I can tell it's all natural to him: not an air he puts on to impress people. 

He appears to be a genuinely kind, generous, warm-hearted person. 

Then he snaps and murders a dude. A dude who IS an unrepentant murderer and manipulator, one who will gladly sacrifice the greater good for his own personal benefit, one who can only be described as a foolish, selfish villain. And crucially, someone who is impossible to prosecute, who considers himself above the law and will use force to ensure that he is. 

So Adolin takes the law into his own hands and kills him. 

Which is a FASCINATING character arc, one I really hope Sanderson explores in depth! 

It absolutely is established that he is currently unrepentant. You know how I know that? Because people who are disturbed by a murder they committed don't hide the body!

He may yet be repentant in the future, that's true. Arguably Sadeas even needed to be murdered, I would agree with that. But it shows you how empty the comment "he's a nice guy" really is when we're sitting here arguing if it applies to someone who murdered a dude then, in cold blood, hid the body. There are many similar instances of people in real life making the same comments in similarly ethically fraught circumstances.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to go around claiming you're a "nice guy" if you're in the murder business, that's waaaaaaay too large an asterix.

Now, do I think he's wrong for Shallan because of this? Absolutely not. They're both murderers who are actively concealing at least one of their kills now. They can bond over it when they get married and have light-haired kids. :P

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29 minutes ago, Ari said:

It absolutely is established that he is currently unrepentant. You know how I know that? Because people who are disturbed by a murder they committed don't hide the body!

He may yet be repentant in the future, that's true. Arguably Sadeas even needed to be murdered, I would agree with that. But it shows you how empty the comment "he's a nice guy" really is when we're sitting here arguing if it applies to someone who murdered a dude then, in cold blood, hid the body. There are many similar instances of people in real life making the same comments in similarly ethically fraught circumstances.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to go around claiming you're a "nice guy" if you're in the murder business, that's waaaaaaay too large an asterix.

Now, do I think he's wrong for Shallan because of this? Absolutely not. They're both murderers who are actively concealing at least one of their kills now. They can bond over it when they get married and have light-haired kids. :P

Still disagree with you - you can be both a truly nice person and, under the right circumstances, be willing to commit murder. Especially second degree murder, for what are essentially the right reasons, which is the case here. The fascinating part is examining the juxtaposition! 

If he pre planned a murder? Or if he made a habit of it? That would definitely make him 'not a nice guy'. 

Furthermore, hiding a body in the immediate aftermath of a murder (when you're going 'holy crap what did I just do'), does not necessarily make you unrepentant. For now. We'll see what his internal characteristics are like later on. How he responds to it mentally. 

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I agree with Erunion. Adolin is in shock and the first stage of shock state is denial. Currently, he is within his denial phase and since he can't accept what he did, he hid the body the same way a small child would hide the broken jar for fear of being grounded. 

He isn't unrepentant, he is traumatized. If he were unrepentant, he'd act smug, he'd be pleased with himself, he'd smile and rob his hands with satisfaction, but he wouldn't stand there completely dazed trying to clean the scene. The cleaning scene is so broken down, so much has been left out, so few details, we get Adolin is just so dizzy he doesn't think things through. We had this discussion in another thread.

Hence, it isn't he is unrepentant, he's in shock.

I SO want to read his mental response....... If only :(

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9 minutes ago, Erunion said:

Still disagree with you - you can be both a truly nice person and, under the right circumstances, be willing to commit murder. Especially second degree murder, for what are essentially the right reasons, which is the case here. The fascinating part is examining the juxtaposition! 

If he pre planned a murder? Or if he made a habit of it? That would definitely make him 'not a nice guy'. 

Furthermore, hiding a body in the immediate aftermath of a murder (when you're going 'holy crap what did I just do'), does not necessarily make you unrepentant. For now. We'll see what his internal characteristics are like later on. How he responds to it mentally. 

The thing is, a "nice guy" doesn't just talk about how pleasant of a person you are to be around. It's also a judge of character, that you will interact with people on a positive basis. You can't apply that to someone willing to commit murder, even if they had good and sufficient reasons for doing so in the moment. It's interesting that you're so focused on what's going on inside his head, as my philosophy on this is that his actions are far more relevant, hence why I find hiding the body to be not a good sign regardless of what his mental state in doing so is. You can rationalise something all you like, but motive isn't really provable in the end, and only matters if it's demonstrated in the context of later actions in my book.

I would absolutely say that hiding the body indicates that he isn't yet repentant. I'm not ruling it out in the future, just saying that "this is not the Adolin we have on our hands at the moment." To move on from committing a crime like that you need to take responsibility for it. Like Shallan, Adolin hasn't done that yet. Neither of them are, IMO, nice people if they are lying to themselves this way, because it allows them (mentally allows, I mean) to do some very scary things in the future without admitting responsibility, too.

Now, could Adolin repent in the future and make things all rainbows and marshmallows again? Absolutely. But Adolin isn't there yet. He's still the guy who just killed sadeas in a rage, then calmly threw his sword away and cut off his shirt cuffs with no internal or external dialogue to speak of. (Granted, point taken that we may have simply been zoomed out of his head and not seeing it, but regardless, these are the acts of someone who is either calculating, or in some flavour of denial, both of which back up my point) That guy isn't uncomplicatedly "nice," and it really does disturb me that I'm having a conversation in which some of us are defending him before we see where he goes in the future. Right now, he has work to be done before he can ever be nice again. Who he is at the moment is categorically not a "nice guy," regardless of what inherent traits he has, because those aren't what's relevant to judging someone. Rather, it is their actions and how they take responsibility for them in the future.

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And what I'm saying is that his actions up to this point, have been kind, generous and thoughtful. That's what I'm judging him by. 

As it stands currently, he has just committed a terrible crime, while under an incredible amount of stress. What will he do next? How will he respond? That will definitely determine what I think of him in the future. 

As it stands, he committed an action that is way out of his typical character, while under extreme stress and has only responded to that action through his state of extreme stress.

This brief moment of one action is not enough to effectively change my judgement of his character. However, how he responds in the next book may alter my perception of him. 

 

TL;DR - Up until now Adolin has been an extremely kind, and generous person. That is what my judgement of him is based on. 

He has recently committed murder, but has not responded to it save while under extreme stress. 

I will wait to significantly alter my judgement of his character until I see how he responds to what he just did. 

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Well I think then we need to chalk this up to irreconcilable differences in philosophy in terms of judging him as he is now, as you're cheerily judging him by his best characteristics and putting the murder aside until we see more, and I'm taking the view that those issues of disposition kinda have to be put to one side until his worst actions are dealt with because they're so serious. His personality doesn't "go away," as a factor, but he has to demonstrate that he's got his mind in a place where future murders are out of the question before I would be willing to start judging him on that basis again, no matter who he was, and even though I admittedly like him. If he had actually broken down or visibly panicked, this might be a different conversation where he had earned some more benefit of the doubt, but right now I would say any reasonable person has right to be skeptical of Adolin's character until said repentance is demonstrated, and thus revoke overly positive labels.

Hot blood is a mitigating factor, sure, but not much of one for murder, which you are expected to avoid always, no matter what. It would be more reasonable to talk about that if he had punched someone, because at least that damage will generally heal.

At least we agree though that he needs to put in some hard yards to redeem himself before we go around parading him as a paragon of virtue, so I guess we'll stick to that going forward. ;) The thing that really disturbs me here is that this sort of conversation gets dangerously close to the ways that people go around "justifying" or "forgiving" rapists before they've demonstrated any change in their character, which I hope we all agree is wrong, and I don't see how we can fail to treat murder just as seriously.

Edited by Ari
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Well said!

I think the fundamental difference here (from say, rape) is that Sadeas needed to die. He was an evil man, who had done evil things in the past and was, at that moment, telling Adolin that he fully intended to do evil things in the future, specifically to harm the people that Adolin loved and the nation that Adolin was honour bound to defend. He then was essentially taunting Adolin about how powerless he was to stop him.

Unfortunately, Sadaes was essentially above the law. 

Adolin snapped, and killed him. What makes it so interesting is that, in many philosophies (as discussed by Shallan and Navani, and seen in our own world), killing Sadaes could be easily construed as the right thing to do. How else could Adolin stop him without eroding Dalinars support and honour?

The really interesting thing here is how completely opposed it is to 'Journey before Destination' - because Adolin acheived a good end (Sadaes' end, to be precise), through murky means (murder, instead of trial, or battle, or a formal duel). 

 

As you can tell, I'm still torn about whether this was the right thing to do or not - was there another way to stop Sadaes without killing him? A legal way? An ethical way? Was there perhaps a way to kill him 'honourably' instead (like a duel?), without risking thousands of lives (as a battle would). 

Such a difficult thing to think about. 

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I think the answer to the question would be: Had Adolin's mental state been any different when he met Sadeas, would he have killed him still? Had he not been stressed out of his mind, would he have snapped? 

I think the answer is no. He would have never done it because he has been there and the walked away. The difference here is he just broke down: too much stress, too much pressure. Everyone (especially Dalinar) has been shoveling everything within his yard without taking one moment to check if he was fine with it: Adolin is always fine with everything. You can shove him across the board back and forth and he is fine, except he isn't. He never was, but he loved to pretend he was. He refused to speak up his own doubts and fears, thinking he needed to be strong, for them.

The snapping, the rage, it was all of those emotions he had been pilling up for the longest time which erupted.

Was it nice?

Well, no. Killing someone is never nice, but I still agree with Erunion here. Adolin remains, fundamentally a nice person which may be why he snapped: within his selflessness, he never got the chance to express his true feelings of anxiety. Little wonder he blew up.

I also disagree Adolin hiding the clues where the act of a calculating individual: he wasn't calculating anything. If we go and re-read the scene, it says something along the lines of: "Dazed, Adolin still had enough mind to think of doing XYZ". 

Dazed. Confused. Clearly, he is in shock. 

Was it the journey or the destination? Only time will tell, but as far as I am concerned with Adolin, the only way to bring about his character wrong would be to not give him the focus he deserves and to ignore his growing mental instability, not giving it enough page time for the readers to dig into it. Adolin also is a rather sensitive guy with strong emotions: the killing will generate a new horde of stronger feelings even which he has never learned how to deal with. Therefore, if Adolin is suddenly composed and calm, then it will be a bad continuity for his character.

So hopefully, once again, his arc will be satisfying for all who wishes to read it.

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