Kaladin and Shallan

[kari-no-sugata]

Some interesting discussion going on here

From what I've seen, many readers didn't find Shallan's sections in tWoK to be too interesting. However, Shallan and Jasnah discussed philosophy a lot. From chapter 36:

Quote

“You’re at an interesting place in your life, Shallan,” Jasnah said, flexing her hand. “You are old enough to wonder, to ask, to reject what is presented to you simply because it was presented to you. But you also cling to the idealism of youth. You feel there must be some single, all-defining Truth—and you think that once you find it, all that once confused you will suddenly make sense.”

I'd say Jasnah's argument is well supported by the rest of the series and also Brandon's comments. There isn't one single solution. There isn't one single definition of honour, or morality. It would make life easier if there was, so people try. But there isn't a practical, proper and complete answer that everyone (or a significant majority) can agree with. Within the Radiants, each Order has slightly different approaches and tendencies (though we don't really know the details yet). Within the individuals of each Order, there would also be minor variations. Brandon has also referenced multiple philosophies within the world and how there would be different responses between them.

So it's natural that there isn't one single answer to Adolin's actions. Some people would strongly support him. Some would strongly condemn him. Others would be at various stages in between. Some would see the situation as very simple, while others would see it as being more nuanced. And that's even assuming they knew what happened - in-world characters would only be able to react based on their in-world knowledge rather than what we the readers see.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that it's impossible to come to any consensus on Adolin's actions at all, just that (as always) there'll be a spectrum of opinion. I don't think that splitting the difference is a good solution either. We could also poll everyone around Urithiru and the Shattered Plains for their opinion but would that be valid? In terms of how Adolin's actions might affect him then it's not the majority opinion that matters but the opinion of the ruling (or influential) minority, and perhaps the law and how the law is interpreted. But what if there's a strong disagreement between the ruling minority and the wider population? Could the masses impose their sense of morality on the minority? Would that be moral? What about the reverse?

One problem with suddenly imposing a single moral (or honour) system at one point in time is that it ignores everything that came before. What's the morality of Alethkar? It's not a nice place. Scum like Sadeas literally get away with mass murder. Is it really fair or moral or honourable to apply a strict sense of morality (or legality) to Adolin when such things hadn't been applied before? Essentially that's part of the problem. If morals and laws were followed strictly the whole time, then Sadeas should have been arrested, tried and sentenced long ago. It's not Adolin's fault that this wasn't the case. So, who should be blamed for allowing evil to run rampant (I think most people could agree that Sadeas was evil)? Well, we could blame the likes of Dalinar and Elhokar but it's not like this is a new thing in Alethkar either. The rot goes a long way back. Though as Dalinar tells Wit/Hoid, Dalinar and Galivar probably made things worse by promoting a "might makes right" approach.

There's several comments from Brandon on this but I think one of the better ones is this (in comparison to Jasnah's actions against the thieves):

Quote

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.

I hope that Oathbringer will consider these various points (amongst others). It would be a shame if it didn't since generally the series has taken quite a thoughtful view on the subject, rather than simply pushing one single answer.

btw, if you consider the different philosophies being argued in the "letters" epigraphs (between Hoid and a certain dragon), then there is another moral argument going on there. It could be phrased as "interventionist vs non-interventionist" (or, "take action before things are too late vs let sleeping dogs lie") and what to do about Sadeas has a similar flavour.

On a different note, I have no idea if Adolin's killing of Sadeas was always the plan. Originally, Jasnah was supposed to reach the Shattered Plains with Shallan, but Brandon changed that rather significantly. If Jasnah had been there, I think it's quite likely that she would either have argued to have Sadeas assassinated or quietly arranged for it to happen. I don't think anyone has asked Brandon that though...

Edited June 25, 2017 by kari-no-sugata
typos...

[maxal]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think the fact that it is the same oath for all orders is intentionally deceptive and all three portions of it will vary widely.

For Bondsmiths, for Gavilar's (and would work for Taravangian too) goals to work, it may be something as drastically different as 

Life before death: The life of the whole is more important than any individual. 

Strength before weakness: Strength is required in the face of difficult actions. 

Journey before destination: To balk at a step on the path, is failure. 

Now, I don't think this is an accurate guess. But if the words are truly open to interpretation, I don't think I said anything there that those words could not mean. 

I agree the first oath is misleading. It is why I get unnerved when some people start saying Adolin cannot be a Radiant because he violated he first oath... How did he do so when the first oath is so iffy? Journey before destination, but what is the journey and what is the destination? Is killing always to be the destination? Didn't Gavilar attempt to unite while killing many innocents? So how can he be more justified than Adolin? Because a spren says he is?

One of the weakness of the Bondsmith is it seems "uniting" doesn't care about how you do it, as ling as you do not "divide". Hence, Gavilar's way isn't against the oath, but quite frankly it certainly should be against the first oath, except it isn't.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that it's impossible to come to any consensus on Adolin's actions at all, just that (as always) there'll be a spectrum of opinion. I don't think that splitting the difference is a good solution either. We could also poll everyone around Urithiru and the Shattered Plains for their opinion but would that be valid? In terms of how Adolin's actions might affect him then it's not the majority opinion that matters but the opinion of the ruling (or influential) minority, and perhaps the law and how the law is interpreted. But what if there's a strong disagreement between the ruling minority and the wider population? Could the masses impose their sense of morality on the minority? Would that be moral? What about the reverse?

One problem with suddenly imposing a single moral (or honour) system at one point in time is that it ignores everything that came before. What's the morality of Alethkar? It's not a nice place. Scum like Sadeas literally get away with mass murder. Is it really fair or moral or honourable to apply a strict sense of morality (or legality) to Adolin when such things hadn't been applied before? Essentially that's part of the problem. If morals and laws were followed strictly the whole time, then Sadeas should have been arrested, tried and sentenced long ago. It's not Adolin's fault that this wasn't the case. So, who should be blamed for allowing evil to run rampant (I think most people could agree that Sadeas was evil)? Well, we could blame the likes of Dalinar and Elhokar but it's not like this is a new thing in Alethkar either. The rot goes a long way back. Though as Dalinar tells Wit/Hoid, Dalinar and Galivar probably made things worse by promoting a "might makes right" approach.

The consensus is likely to be the one Brandon writes into the book. One of my issues is while I do understand how people could have various opinions onto Adolin's actions, I have a hard time processing how those very same people could give a free pass to Dalinar, Shallan and Jasnah. If you apply one set of morality onto one character, then you have to apply the same onto the other.

One thing which I did give some thought was as to whether or not the populace would support Adolin. I get the feeling the man, the darkeyes might give him their support, the soldiers especially which might tip the scale into Adolin's favor. 

I do agree morality onto Roshar is a scam: it does not exist. So how can be condemn Adolin when Sadeas was allowed to roam free despite everyone knowing what he did? The problem remains Adolin is Dalinar's son and the father will go hard onto the son, even if the punishment ends up being harsher than anyone ever receive for worst offends.

Gavilar/Dalinar did make it worst: he promoted the idea the strongest, meanest, baddest man ought to sit on the throne. The problem is he opened the door wide for a stronger, meaner and badder man to attempt to wrestle it out of them. 

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I hope that Oathbringer will consider these various points (amongst others). It would be a shame if it didn't since generally the series has taken quite a thoughtful view on the subject, rather than simply pushing one single answer.

btw, if you consider the different philosophies being argued in the "letters" epigraphs (between Hoid and a certain dragon), then there is another moral argument going on there. It could be phrased as "interventionist vs non-interventionist" (or, "take action before things are too late vs let sleeping dogs lie") and what to do about Sadeas has a similar flavour.

On a different note, I have no idea if Adolin's killing of Sadeas was always the plan. Originally, Jasnah was supposed to reach the Shattered Plains with Shallan, but Brandon changed that rather significantly. If Jasnah had been there, I think it's quite likely that she would either have argued to have Sadeas assassinated or quietly arranged for it to happen. I don't think anyone has asked Brandon that though...

Brandon did say Adolin's actions weren't as dark as Jasnah's, but somehow many readers still think the opposite because the thugs did attack Jasnah while Sadeas didn't. I do say how it will all end up being weighted one against the other will be very interesting to say the least. 

I am really curious as to what the plan initially was... Jasnah seems a good contender, if not her, than who?

[Calderis]

I somehow posted this in another thread... But I wanted to take a moment to say this thread is much more enjoyable discussing morality and philosophy than as a ship thread. 

[ElyssK]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

I somehow posted this in another thread... But I wanted to take a moment to say this thread is much more enjoyable discussing morality and philosophy than as a ship thread. 

I just like that the ships in Stormlight involve discussions of morality and philosophy. Definitely more enjoyable

Edited June 25, 2017 by ElyssK

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, ElyssK said:

I just like that the ships in Stormlight involve discussions of morality and philosophy. Definitely more enjoyable

That is a valid point. 

[Everstorm Entropy]

On June 24, 2017 at 9:04 PM, maxal said:

One of my issues is while I do understand how people could have various opinions onto Adolin's actions, I have a hard time processing how those very same people could give a free pass to Dalinar, Shallan and Jasnah. If you apply one set of morality onto one character, then you have to apply the same onto the other.

...

Brandon did say Adolin's actions weren't as dark as Jasnah's, but somehow many readers still think the opposite because the thugs did attack Jasnah while Sadeas didn't. I do say how it will all end up being weighted one against the other will be very interesting to say the least. 

I agree with this.  I see why people have an issue with what Adolin did.  I have my own issues with it.  But to suddenly claim he's going to go down a "dark path" into a redemption character arc because of his actions feels a little silly and cliche.  Especially in the face of what other characters have done.

Dalinar has done far worse things in his youth.  Jasnah baited out an attack for the sole purpose of murder.  Shallan killed both of her parents.  All of these characters had reasons and different justifications for doing what they did.  The morality of it all is smudged.  And that's what makes it more interesting than just "good character did a bad thing and is now a bad character because of the bad thing."

And it seems worth pointing out that the Alethi way is to show strength.  A Brightlord getting stabbed by another Brightlord after constant threats and schemes, proving to be a direct danger to their (much bigger and more renown) family?  It probably would spark some anger, but likely would get shrugs of indifference from most of the other Brightlords.

[maxal]

11 hours ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

Dalinar has done far worse things in his youth.

Having read The Thrill, I would say this is an understatement. What Dalinar did is unforgivable. Anyone who currently goes hard on Adolin but keeps on thinking of Dalinar as a great man will have to revise his/her thoughts. 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, maxal said:

Having read The Thrill, I would say this is an understatement. What Dalinar did is unforgivable. Anyone who currently goes hard on Adolin but keeps on thinking of Dalinar as a great man will have to revise his/her thoughts. 

The thing that I love about this, is that Dalinar has thought about this. Can trying to live life honorably in his later years make up for the carnage of his youth and middle years? It's written in a way to make the reader think "old warriors always feel regret like that." I honestly wonder how many people will be shocked when they realize just how bloodthirsty and treacherous the Blackthorn  was. 

I kind of saw it coming though. You like at everything that the Alethi glamorize. The things they hold up on a pedestal. It's not Honor. It's not strategy. It's strength at any cost. The fact that everyone looks back on Dalinar as one of the greatest warriors ever, who's now past his prime, screams that the Blackthorn was a instrument of merciless slaughter. 

I kind of wonder how many of Brandon's casual fans are going to be turned off by what Dalinar was. 

[Vissy]

I mean what I've read of the young Blackthorn was only that he was a great warrior who would convert anyone to join his warband if he deemed them a good warrior.

[maxal]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

The thing that I love about this, is that Dalinar has thought about this. Can trying to live life honorably in his later years make up for the carnage of his youth and middle years? It's written in a way to make the reader think "old warriors always feel regret like that." I honestly wonder how many people will be shocked when they realize just how bloodthirsty and treacherous the Blackthorn  was. 

I kind of saw it coming though. You like at everything that the Alethi glamorize. The things they hold up on a pedestal. It's not Honor. It's not strategy. It's strength at any cost. The fact that everyone looks back on Dalinar as one of the greatest warriors ever, who's now past his prime, screams that the Blackthorn was a instrument of merciless slaughter. 

I kind of wonder how many of Brandon's casual fans are going to be turned off by what Dalinar was. 

I say presenting Dalinar as he now is instead of having us read him from his youth does allow us to see him as sympathetic. Without knowing in advance what Dalinar becomes, the readers might have reacted to him in a rather different way. This being said, I definitely think many readers perception will change after reading Oathbringer. From the four chapters I have read, I do think they add new unsuspected layers to his character. Yes, we knew he used to be bad, but we could never guess just how bad he truly was.

6 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I mean what I've read of the young Blackthorn was only that he was a great warrior who would convert anyone to join his warband if he deemed them a good warrior.

Ah well you have to keep on reading... The first flashback chapter isn't terrible, the second (32-34 years ago) and the fourth (25 years ago) ones are where it all happens. Obviously, I can't freely talk about it as it remains Oathbringer's spoilers, but Dalinar did a few things which are highly reprehensible and quite nonredeemable. The fact he was never help accountable for it can only be blame over the fact "there was a war" and "his brutality is what allowed Gavilar to win battles". While it is true he was a fair judge of talent, he also was a bloodthirsty monster who killed whomever step in his way. Whomever. 

Honestly, Dalinar is in a terrible position to judge his son, but he will nonetheless.

[Everstorm Entropy]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

The thing that I love about this, is that Dalinar has thought about this. Can trying to live life honorably in his later years make up for the carnage of his youth and middle years? It's written in a way to make the reader think "old warriors always feel regret like that." I honestly wonder how many people will be shocked when they realize just how bloodthirsty and treacherous the Blackthorn  was. 

I kind of saw it coming though. You like at everything that the Alethi glamorize. The things they hold up on a pedestal. It's not Honor. It's not strategy. It's strength at any cost. The fact that everyone looks back on Dalinar as one of the greatest warriors ever, who's now past his prime, screams that the Blackthorn was a instrument of merciless slaughter. 

I kind of wonder how many of Brandon's casual fans are going to be turned off by what Dalinar was. 

It does say quite a lot about the Alethi culture.  The Blackthorn was the person they want to idolize and remember fondly, while the Dalinar that we know and love is pitied by the Alethi.  Being a man of honor and abiding by their own historical codes makes him "weak" in their eyes.  In fact, I'd say that if Dalinar didn't still have his reputation as the Blackthorn, he'd be completely ignored by the other high princes and disregarded in any war proceedings.

And it ties back into the morality debate of the entire series: Does Dalinar's virtuous life he's living now make up for his horrible wrongdoings as the Blackthorn?  Is Szeth really committing all of the murderous acts if he regrets every second of it and even hates himself for it?  Is Szeth even really a murderer, or is he simply a tool someone else is using to kill; someone who is taking advantage of his extreme devotion to his Oath stone?  Is Shallan forgiven for killing her parents considering the circumstances?  Was Jasnah committing a heinous act by killing the thugs in the ally?  Is Adolin killing Sadeas really much worse than anything in this last paragraph?

That's what I love about the series; there is no black and white to the morality or complexity of the characters.  Everything is changing, everyone is broken in some way, and each character has their own driving force behind their actions.

[Calderis]

@Everstorm Entropy yes. It demonstrates perfectly, that Morality is far more complicated than people would like to believe. 

It's so much simpler to just make a judgment and be done. 

[Vissy]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

I say presenting Dalinar as he now is instead of having us read him from his youth does allow us to see him as sympathetic. Without knowing in advance what Dalinar becomes, the readers might have reacted to him in a rather different way. This being said, I definitely think many readers perception will change after reading Oathbringer. From the four chapters I have read, I do think they add new unsuspected layers to his character. Yes, we knew he used to be bad, but we could never guess just how bad he truly was.

Ah well you have to keep on reading... The first flashback chapter isn't terrible, the second (32-34 years ago) and the fourth (25 years ago) ones are where it all happens. Obviously, I can't freely talk about it as it remains Oathbringer's spoilers, but Dalinar did a few things which are highly reprehensible and quite nonredeemable. The fact he was never help accountable for it can only be blame over the fact "there was a war" and "his brutality is what allowed Gavilar to win battles". While it is true he was a fair judge of talent, he also was a bloodthirsty monster who killed whomever step in his way. Whomever. 

Honestly, Dalinar is in a terrible position to judge his son, but he will nonetheless.

I see, I've only read one or two Dalinar flashbacks (the first ones released), and neither didn't paint the Blackthorn in a particularly horrible light. I look forward to reading more when the book comes out though.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I see, I've only read one or two Dalinar flashbacks (the first ones released), and neither didn't paint the Blackthorn in a particularly horrible light. I look forward to reading more when the book comes out though.

I figured you had probably read the two excerpts which were publicly released: the one where he recruits Teleb and the one where he meets his wife. Those aren't terrible, even if they do paint a much different Dalinar. The action I am referring to, which I find unforgivable, happens in between those two flashbacks, some 32-34 years ago. You'll know when you read it. Also, 25 years ago, there are a few other things Dalinar does which I personally find highly reprehensible.

I say, managing to write this character into a positive light is a master forced accomplishment. There truly are few great things about the Blackthorn and Gavilar and their war: I find I rather hate them even.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

I say, managing to write this character into a positive light is a master forced accomplishment. There truly are few great things about the Blackthorn and Gavilar and their war: I find I rather hate them even.

I was always curious. In the very first Kaladin flashback in tWoK Lirin makes a comment along the lines of "yes, King Gavilar always finds wars for us to fight." yet we always, excluding Navani, see Gavilar remembered either neutrally or fondly.

Seeing that it was more than just the bias of a professional surgeon leaves a lot of questions. Less about everyone's memories of Gavilar, and more about the depths of the Alethi depravity. 

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I was always curious. In the very first Kaladin flashback in tWoK Lirin makes a comment along the lines of "yes, King Gavilar always finds wars for us to fight." yet we always, excluding Navani, see Gavilar remembered either neutrally or fondly.

Seeing that it was more than just the bias of a professional surgeon leaves a lot of questions. Less about everyone's memories of Gavilar, and more about the depths of the Alethi depravity. 

I find Gavilar to be a reprehensible human being and the only reason I find Dalinar tolerable is because he grew up to reject what he once was. After all, everyone deserves a chance at redemption and Dalinar seems like he is really trying. Gavilar however...

Lirin definitely had the right of it. Unlike everyone else, he does see the cost of war and he mourns for it. He does not see it as grand nor noble, he sees it as a waste of human life. I had sometimes wonder how different their life would have been had Adolin been born to Lirin and Kaladin to Dalinar..........

[Sami]

I am now confused as to whether this discussion is about whether Adolin/Dalinar's actions are morally/ethically right to us, or to Roshar.

I think that who Dalinar was is horrible, but he has changed a lot and I love who he is now; I think that because of his past he may be able to understand his son's actions better, but it doesn't mean that he can't 'judge' his son for his actions. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Sami

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, Sami said:

I am now confused as to whether this discussion is about whether Adolin/Dalinar's actions are morally/ethically right to us, or to Roshar.

I think that who Dalinar was is horrible, but he has changed a lot and I love who he is now; I think that because of his past he may be able to understand his son's actions better, but it doesn't mean that he can't 'judge' his son for his actions. 

We made a new topic to discuss it as this one derailed. You can post your thoughts onto it within this thread and read thoughts of other posters.

[Calderis]

@Sami this thread wanders quite a bit. If it didn't I wouldn't be here. I hate ship threads 

[WhiteLeeopard]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

I was always curious. In the very first Kaladin flashback in tWoK Lirin makes a comment along the lines of "yes, King Gavilar always finds wars for us to fight." yet we always, excluding Navani, see Gavilar remembered either neutrally or fondly.

Seeing that it was more than just the bias of a professional surgeon leaves a lot of questions. Less about everyone's memories of Gavilar, and more about the depths of the Alethi depravity. 

I was always a bit leery of Gavilar, as the people that thought fondly of him were:

1. Sadeas, anyone that he respects is going to be a chull
2. Amaram, same but even bigger scale
3. Taravangian, uhhhh, this is the guy killing the poor and homless and pulling Szeth's strings to kill all authority figures in Roshar, right?
4. Dalinar, who was so riddled with guilt over being drunk while his brother died that he would worship him even if he were a serial killer
5. Elhokar, who just wanted to be worthy of being a king and would do anything to gain respect, since his father was respected, he idiolized his father
6. Numerous highprinces and lords and ladies who just wanted to kill a few hundred/thousand men forever to get richer

None of those seem reasonings attached to people that I would think they simbolize respect. The highprinces are definetely a group that if you earn their respect that is a major sign you did something wrong. Taravangian is his own weird thing, but he is on a path to destroy all, what he intends to do at the finish line non withstanding. And Dalinar and Elhokar were just wrapped up in their personal issues and how those link to Gavilar, I'm not sure they respected Gavilar, as much as they felt they had to respect him and what he signified. 

Edit: Maybe OP should consider renaming the thread to "Ramblings"or "Join us down the rabbit hole"  

Edited June 29, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[maxal]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Sami this thread wanders quite a bit. If it didn't I wouldn't be here. I hate ship threads 

 But shipping discussions are the spirit and soul of all fandom  

I agree they can be tedious and they tend to lead to aggressiveness as people do get flustered when their ship is not supported as much as they wish they would. 

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I was always a bit leery of Gavilar, as the people that thought fondly of him were:

1. Sadeas, anyone that he respects is going to be a chull
2. Amaram, same but even bigger scale
3. Taravangian, uhhhh, this is the guy killing the poor and homless and pulling Szeth's strings to kill all authority figures in Roshar, right?
4. Dalinar, who was so riddled with guilt over being drunk while his brother died that he would worship him even if he were a serial killer
5. Elhokar, who just wanted to be worthy of being a king and would do anything to gain respect, since his father was respected, he idiolized his father
6. Numerous highprinces and lords and ladies who just wanted to kill a few hundred/thousand men forever to get richer

None of those seem reasonings attached to people that I would think they simbolize respect. The highprinces are definetely a group that if you earn their respect that is a major sign you did something wrong. Taravangian is his own weird thing, but he is on a path to destroy all, what he intends to do at the finish line non withstanding. And Dalinar and Elhokar were just wrapped up in their personal issues and how those link to Gavilar, I'm not sure they respected Gavilar, as much as they felt they had to respect him and what he signified. 

Edit: Maybe OP should consider renaming the thread to "Ramblings"or "Join us down the rabbit hole"  

We do have this one quote from Navani where she implied there was more to Gavilar which wasn't glorious... Didn't she say to Dalinar how he perhaps didn't recall his brother right? Whichever, I definitely think Dalinar's memories of his brother are seriously messed up, not by artificial means, but by his own personal bias. In the same way Dalinar sees only greatness in Elholar, refusing to see his fall-outs, refusing to do anything about them when he could, I think he does the same for his brother.

Guilt is a powerful motivator and, from The Thrill, we get Dalinar has been feeling guilty towards Gavilar from more than a few decades. He always were jealous of Gavilar, he always felt he ought to do something about it and he always beat himself up for it, trying to make it up in doting onto his nephew in ridiculous ways. I have always thought part of Dalinar's story arc and future growth would be to deal with those lasting feelings towards his nephew. One of my thoughts is Dalinar will, once again, privilege Elhokar over his own son, but it will turn sour. Elhokar will not be worthy of this trust, he will screw up in a terrible way and Dalinar will be force to admit failure here. Or maybe he'll have to choose in between his nephew and his son, which would be heartbreaking as we all know he would choose Elhokar.

So back to Gavilar, I certainly think he is seen as a great man merely because he took the kingdom by force. What he did was wrong, for wrong reasons. I didn't read a great man in The Thrill, I read a conqueror sitting on his throne, slaughtering innocent villages within the greater name of his own personal glory. Dalinar, I can more easily excuse as he does pass for a simpleton, so I can push him away saying he just didn't have the mental capacities to understand what he was doing  I know, this is harsh. but young Dalinar didn't sound very smart... 

I think people worship Gavilar because they worship martial prowess. They worship war and winning at all cost which is what Gavilar did. I am keen to see the revolution and if it will bear fruits. Let's up turn the tables as I do think Dalinar will need to break Alethkar in order to unite it, the right way.

 

 

 

[kari-no-sugata]

Vorin culture and traditions is certainly ripe for rapid changes.

• A culture of back-stabbing is dumb at the best of times. When your very survival is at stake then it's suicidal.
• The public use of weapons being male-only is already over with Shallan though it'll take some time for that to go from a "once off" to a "rare case" to being generally accepted.
• Since Shardbearers are automatically of a certain rank, once we start seeing 10s and 100s of new Radiants, that will shift the culture of high ranking lighteyes since most of those newcomers will not be high ranking lighteyes originally.

Etc.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Since Shardbearers are automatically of a certain rank, once we start seeing 10s and 100s of new Radiants, that will shift the culture of high ranking lighteyes since most of those newcomers will not be high ranking lighteyes originally.

This has the potential to be a much bigger issue. The entire Vorin social structure has the potential to be cast aside as people begin to understand that "lighteyes" are not what they have always believed. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

It will also be interesting to see what the church and ardents will do, as, as has been posted elsewhere they are ripe to be an organization to throw a wrench into events. They are one of the few literate groups, they apparently are an almost subservient group, but truth is they are the only group with steady access to soulcasters and shardblades, even if theorically they aren't theirs but on loan. They have among their ranks scholars that develop new philosophies and studies, school lighteyes, and spread the word of the Almighty and Heralds among lighteyes and darkeyes alike, as well as warriors as they are the group that trains shardbearers. To top it off they are all over Vorin countries, amid the high and low, rich and poor, kings and beggars. 

It seems unlikely they will watch the RK be refounded and most Vorin values be cast aside meekly. Although I'm sure that is what will be initially assumed and expected of them. Then again when was the last time such a potentially powerful group was left with nothing to do in a Sanderson book. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Waterbee]

On 8/26/2016 at 3:51 AM, Ariyar said:

According to my experience with romance or love triangle, there is a very high chance that Kaladin would win Shallan's hand.

However, I stay with Adolin. I just hope a kind guy like him remains kind, and finally gets the real love he needs. But with the way things are set up, I see Adolin getting dark soon, and Shallan shying away from him. I just hope it doesn't happen. Too cliche. Too frequent. And too bad.

Moreover, no matter how much the author wants us believe that Shallan is a suitable match for Kaladin, I just don't buy it. Kaladin deserves a different person, someone who could be the real light Tien was, not someone who retorts in every conversation and makes other people uncomfortable with her supposed wittiness.

So, let Shallan stay with Adolin. Please.

I agree. Completely.