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Coop - 8/22/16 - Clouds pt. 2 - 3982 words


Coop

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Hey everyone, thanks in advance for reading this. Any and all commentary is appreciated. For continuity, I started the submission with the last paragraph from the previous chapter.

Quick synopsis of pt. 1:

Sira is a 12-year-old girl who finds an unusual path of moss in a forest. At the end of the path she discovers an underground chamber that contains a chest full of colorful costumes and strange bronze objects. She takes the golden-colored costume and leaves.

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Welcome back! I'm glad you're subbing again. I want to know where this goes.

Overall

While I can see a clear world emerging, I am having more and more problems with Sira as a character. Details below. I like the magical elements of the world, and her unfolding backstory, but I think the grandfather description needs to be a lot earlier.

As I go

- page one: need a transition between paragraph one and two. I'm confused

- page one: I still don't understand why she is afraid. What is she afraid of, specifically? Why does she have this fear? Where does this 'maelstrom of terrors' come from?

- I'm confused too at the transition from fear to slow steps at not wanting to return home. This is a very abrupt transition all around.

- Why is she avoiding her grandfather? You set it up as if she was sneaking in, perhaps she'd been out too late? But the grandfather seems not at all concerned. She turns down pie, but says she'll come back for it later? What is happening here??

- page two: the empty dresser and luggage bit is good!

- page five: "However, she realized, giant beasts would not own human-sized clothing." I LOLed

- start of page six: again with this terror thing. This time it is a little better flushed out, but still. I need backstory. Why is Sira constantly acting like an alley cat?

- page eight: OK, so here we finally get a clue to the flightiness of Sira. This needs to come MUCH earlier. It would help push the entire narrative along, as well.

- page nine: While I have some empathy for Sira's younger self, the inability to see past the scarring at the age you have her at makes me dislike her character, and emotionally attach to the grandfather. Dude needs a hug.

- page 9: French is a proper noun. Toast is not. 

- page ten: bungalow is not a proper noun

- page thirteen: getting too many new gadgets here. I can visualize the triangulator, but not really any of the others. You need to spend more time on them, and introduce fewer all at once. Also, what happened to all her terror? She just willingly goes back to this place now, after all the fear build we had previously? I'm getting whiplash.

- end: I'm disliking Sira the farther into this we get. She started crying before even trying to see if she was trapped? 

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Okay, so something's changed in your chapter breaks in the version you sent me and the version you sent to the group. I'm not going to renumber my notes; I'll trust you to match old chapter numbers to your new ones. Also, to anyone looking at my critique other than Coop, these notes are 'alpha style', so no line by lines or anything specific. I only looked at content, not minutiae.

 

Chapter Five

Overall, this chapter did pretty well. It has conflict—Sira’s dislike for her living arrangements and attempt to get Mom to change her mind and then her very believable paranoia that someone or something would come after her to get the gold suit back. That flowed well, I thought.

Things that didn’t work well for me in a broad sense (not going to nitpick sentences and phrases in such an early draft) were that I felt dislike for Sira with her poor responses to her environment. I understand she doesn’t want to be there, but the colorful language describing how rundown the joint is pushed me away from her. I didn’t feel sorry for her. However, remember that I work in an all poverty city neighborhood, so teenagers not liking stuff hits a button for me since I see so many kids do with far less, suffer more, and complain less than Sira does here.

Also, why didn’t Grandpa call her to dinner? That seemed odd. Also felt odd that we never got a visual on him.

Chapter Six

                Oh my goodness! That description of Grandpa’s face made me squeamish! Now I understand why the reader didn't 'see' him sooner!

                Wow. Where do I start on this chapter? The reveal of the grandfather’s deformity sent my imagination spinning. You made my toes curl. I pity him and want to get away from him at the same time.

                You know, thought here—this is 100x more interesting than the details of getting through the woods. Why didn’t you open here? Sira’s internal conflict of missing her mother and dealing with her presumably amicable but horrifyingly ugly grandfather is fascinating.  Just a thought. It’s not wholly defining Sira as a person as some of the people on the thread were asking, but at the same time, it’s creating tons of suspense. Just thoughts to chew on.  Even if you didn’t restructure a scene before the woods-wandering, maybe you could ‘tease’ this through her internal dialogue or something. (I have another idea after chapter 8 about another possible way to strengthen your opening. The way you write the ninja scene like magic realism is far stronger than the format you use in chapter 1. I go into detail on that idea in later comments)

 

Chapter 7

                This chapter falls flat compared to the one before. I was listening as far as her first experiments with the triangulator but everything after that was a bunch of detail that I could tell wasn’t really going anywhere and I didn’t retain any of what I read.

                Her reactions to the door closing felt unreal. She cried too fast and solved the problem too fast. Also, I wondered why she felt so comfortable in her Bungalow when she was still in possession of stolen goods.

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This is super fun!  

I started out not liking Sira because of the way she treats her grandpa.  After learning why she acts the way she does around him, I understood her a lot better and was able to start enjoying her character. I really want to see her get over her fear of her grandpa, though, and if it doesn't start happening soon I'm going to be very disappointed in her.  I really enjoy her antics, especially the way she scares herself and freaks out - I relate to that! That's why I can't read horror or watch scary movies.  The part where she tries out the bronze devices is also fun.  I agree that the triangulator was the most vivid of the devices she tried, but I still had fun with the other ones.

Above the bed was an oversized light fixture... I found this sentence awkward.

Sira's grandfather had been in...  ...was coming to get her.  This whole passage feels tell-y to me.  The information is important and I was very interested to read it, but it would be awesome if you could either make it feel more like a flashback or work it in to her thoughts more naturally.

She started to cry. This felt really abrupt to me.  Give her time to worry first.

Overall I really enjoyed it.  I like spending time with Sira and I'm excited to read more.

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So, I'm quite looking forward to delving into the story again. My memories from last time are generally positive!
All detailed comments now coded according to MRK’s espoused ABCD method. (A) = Awesome; (B) = Boring; (C) = Confusing; and (D) = Disbelief (-inducing). Now also including their nerdy classmate who nobody spoke to in high school, (G) which is for Grammar/typo, an essential adjunct to the ABCDs!

Yup, I enjoyed this submission again, more than the last, I think. Grandpa’s ‘condition’ and her reaction introduces real tension and a compelling conflict within Sira that would encourage me to read on to see the resolution of.

Her exploration of the abilities of the suit and its mechanics is also compelling and you've done a good job of making me curious to find out the purpose of these various items.

Further, there is now the presence of another entity, it seems, which is a third element that I am curious about. Lots of reasons to keep reading, lots of promises the reader that you will reveal, in a satisfying way, what these things are, what the presence is, and some kind of change in the relationship of Sira and her Grandpa. Nice job.

My one immediate thought in relation to these promises is whether any could be made closer to the start. You do introduce the suit earlier of course, and you imply the presence through Sira’s fear. The reveal of Grandpa’s condition is probably also good, as we need time to form the view that he is normal and she is being a silly girl. Certainly, I think I would read far enough to reach this point, so maybe it’s a non-issue!

Anyway, good job. I'm keen to read more and be pulled further into the mysterious goings on.

<R>

---------------------------------------------

Chapter 3

 (D) – I'm not keen on 'speedwalk' I get the idea, but it's not very elegant. I feel there's an opportunity to paint a picture of her urgency that would convey some character.
(C) – "much thicker with stars than that of her hometown" - At this point, I've forgotten her situation, but that might just be Weekly Reader Syndrome (WRS).
(C) – "effervescent feeling of the night" - I wonder if this is the right word. Was bubbly and bright the impression you were going for?
(C) – I feel like I'm missing Sira's age. Some of her comments during the phone call. Did you say she was about 12? Yeah, okay, I guess. (A) I like the bargaining with her mother. Kids so totally do that, I even remember doing it myself, so very earnestly!! :)

(D) – “I’m a stud” – Yeah, this is not the word. The only meaning of ‘stud’ I know is “A ladies man, someone who is easily attached to girls and very noticeable. Look at that dude, he is such a stud, look at all the girls he has with him.” – I took this definition from Urban Dictionary, which does have the ‘awesome badass’ definition as No.1 and this one as No.2. I think it is maybe an age thing. I would say through the 80’ to the 00’s you are looking at the 2nd definition, with the first becoming relevant in the last 10 years? I’ll be very interested to read other reactions to this word, but older readers will, I predict, be reacting to this based on the second definition (‘mine’) – which clearly is not appropriate to the situation.

(B) – “A draft of air pushed the curtains into the room, like an evil was entering.” – Meh, there must be a thousand movies that use this image. If you’re going to use it, I’d love to see it with a different aspect, something fresh.

(A) – “I went to the bathroom. > I saw a rat.” – Excellent, such blatant lies. So very 12-year-old-trying-to-cover-tracks-with-no-hope-of-success. Nicely done.

(D) – “Until sleep finally came an hour later, she rested on her side and watched the wheat field through the curtains.” – I’d prefer sleep coming right at the end, it sounds the wrong way around here. The last line of the chapter is really the second most important in the chapter, I think. Like the first line, it should invite the reader to keep going.

Chapter 4

(D) – “Daylight brought sanity” – I feel that sanity/insanity is really strong terminology for what was going on the previous evening. Even ‘madness’ does not seem quite as strong, true there were some wild shenanigans taking place in her mind, but ‘insanity’? I'm not so sure.

(C) – “so she dressed for the day” – did she wash?

(G) – “Sira had not never met her grandfather until she was four” – suggestion.

(A) – “But her former feelings awoke each time she saw him” – This is a really strong and interesting conflict, that classic beauty-and-the-beast dichotomy that makes the reader consider whether they would be capable of doing the right thing in the same situation. Obvs, it’s been done before, but I like how you introduced it. I wonder if there might just be a couple of difficult clues leading up to the reveal. His voice, was the thing that struck me. You kept her from seeing him, but his voice is featured. So, what I'm suggesting is “Hi Seer,” he growled. – or something like that, which could easily be attributed to a normal voice, but is than revealed not to be.

Chapter 5

(A) – “The smooth mechanics of the moving parts were hypnotic” – nice line. Go engineers!

(G) – “If it weren’t hadn’t been for the sound” – or maybe ‘wasn’t for the sound’ if you want to avoid hadn’t.

(C) – “the line spiraled so far she couldn’t see the end” – I thought it was extending in a straight line, this seems to contradict.

(G) – “Someone had grinded ground the cave entrance shut” – I think.

(B) – “Sira sprinted every step back to the farm. Except the log bridge. She caterpillared that.” I seen what you’re doing including the log bridge, which gives an element of familiarity in the journey and I guess makes the reader feel a little bit at home because of it, something familiar to recognise, but the last line really steals the immediacy from the end of the chapter, I think. Deleting it would drag the reader into the next chapter more effectively, imho.

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10 hours ago, Robinski said:

’ll be very interested to read other reactions to this word

As a younger (under 30) reader, the usage of stud didn't strike me as odd.  I'm certainly familiar with the "ladies man" connotation, but I think it can be used, especially by a younger person, as another word for "attractive and awesome."  The thing that confused me about the usage was that the suit doesn't sound like it would make her look very awesome - right now I'm picturing a sort of glorified golden clown suit. :D But if she thinks she looks awesome, then that's what counts I guess!

ETA: Upon further reflection I think her use of "stud" came off to me as a young girl trying out a word she's heard but doesn't really understand yet.  

I also wanted to add that I really liked the last line.  I agree with Robinski that it reduced the immediacy, but it left me with a funny image that made me smile and connected me with her character.

Edited by Hobbit
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- "The euphoria of discovery made her blind to fear, and the golden fabric in her arms warmed her." - this sentence feels weird. The two thoughts don't seem connected, and I think the first part is telling a bit too much rather than showing.

- I really like the image of her "inchworm crawl".

- The exchange with her grandfather seems a bit odd, since she walks to her room without giving her grandfather any chance to answer her before shutting the door.

- I really am curious what the deal with the costume is. Good job building that up.

- The bit about Sira's mother finding no humor in during her visit to Grandpa's is also weird, because it's not supposed to be funny (at least to Sira). It doesn't quite fit with what's going on and left me a bit confused about the situation. 

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Adorable summary. Makes me sad that I missed out on the first part.

Chapter 3, Page 1

Aw. I like how the dread is established.

Chapter 3, Page 2

So she had to move out here against her will. Hm, I'm guessing she moved here from somewhere more populated, but probably not urban if she was willing to adventure in the wilds before staying long enough to unpack her things.

Chapter 3, Page 3

Instant resonance with character was achieved: character was staying with grandparents while the parent was somewhere foreign. Good times.

Chapter 3, Page 4

Aunt and uncle are nearby, cool.

Aw, the sadness returns with a vengeance, but was followed immediately with costume awe. That gave me a bit of whiplash. I was still halfway sad by the time I reached the end of the page.

Chapter 3, Page 5

Cute. Ha, stud, I guess she idolizes unconditional bravery.

No whiplash with this emotional shift to fright. The questions helped set it up.

Loving the imagination on her.

Chapter 3, Page 6

Oh gods she has gone full nightmare mode.

Hm, mad rush of fear aside, it seems weird that she was so shocked by her grandpa's voice. She figured the door already alerted him, so his voice should be expected. Also, I remember that her grandpa's steps creaked away in an earlier scene, and she heard him walk away at the end of this one. In hindsight, it feels off how she keeps getting surprised whenever her grandpa goes to her door. His knock and voice come out of nowhere, but his exit is louder.

Chapter 3, Page 7

On a completely unrelated note, I think it would've been funny if the tone shifted again and she walked back out of her room to get a slice of that pie she liked. Kind of disappointed that earlier setup didn't go anywhere.

Chapter 4, Page 1

Wow, she's going all out when it comes to avoiding grandpa. Except for when she gave up, which was nice.

Also, grandpa got jokes.

Chapter 4, Page 2

Detective grandpa is on the case.

Oh, that explains a lot. Poor grandpa.

Chapter 4, Page 3

Oh gods, and again, poor grandpa. I am now heartbroken, but I can't blame the girl for feeling that way. What do I do with this discomfort.

Very nicely arranged relationship situation.

Chapter 5, Page 1

I keep thinking this is a superhero suit. Is this a superhero suit?

Also, is that mini-harpoon? That's really cool.

Chapter 5, Page 2

Oh, or maybe a grappling ho... arrow?

Ah, nice, thought came to my head before she dismissed it.

Chapter 5, Page 3

Pfft, hahaha. Beware the idiocy of childish curiosity.

That's one fancy flashlight.

Chapter 5, Page 4

Hm, lost a bit of spirit here. I think I have reached the same level of boredom as the character. A whole lot of new stuff all at once.

Chapter 5, page 5

It begins.

And immediately ends. Okay. I'm fine with that.

Chapter 5, page 6

Ha, that last line was funny. I now know why she did that crawl on a log in the beginning of chapter 3. Makes sense.

===

General Thoughts

That was fun. Viewpoint character seems to be loaded with pure, stupid cuteness. I enjoyed that, it was very relaxing.

But yeah, lots of whiplash. She goes though emotional beats like a plate of french fries.

Aw, was grandpa trying to bribe her with her favorite pie? The tragedy grows deeper with all this hindsight.
 

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Hey Coop. I'm coming into this one chapter late; hope that's okay ;)

As I go:

I like your focus on the speed of Sira's steps, as a physical indicator of her comfort/stress level. It gives the reader a palpable sense of her emotions as if we're watching her, rather than saying something abstract like "she felt scared."

I already love the interactions between Sira and her Grandpa; they remind me a lot of the relationships I have with my own grandparents, so kudos for nailing that. 

For the most part you do a great job of showing and not telling, which makes the aside during the conversation between Sira and her mother (about her military lifestyle) stick out. Perhaps offering that information as an off-hand comment like "you know what these military types are like" or something of that ilk would allow the conversation to flow better. 

Pure costume porn when you describe the suit, but I can tell you're enjoying it and the description is very vivid, which I can appreciate. 

"I'm a stud," is not something I'd imagine a 12-year old girl saying. Maybe I grew up around different girls, but "stud" was a very boy thing to say. On the other hand, not sure what an alternative is...

I like the tension between Sira and her Grandpa on a human level; it makes these characters seem flawed and therefore real.

I'm interested to see what becomes of Sira's extensive playing. Again, I like it on a character level as it makes her appear to exist outside the linear plot, but part of me worries that it won't amount to much. But I'm excited to be proven wrong. 

Overall a wonderfully written few chapters. I love your style and your characters. I think the events were a little on the mundane side, but with the deliberateness of your prose I'm expecting every last detail to rear its head in an awe-inspiring climax. 

And I cant wait! 

 

 

 

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@kaisa @krystalynn03 @Hobbit @Robinski @rdpulfer @Vreeah @AuthorityHellas16

Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond to this! You've given me a treasure trove of excellent ideas to work through in my revisions!

Quick thought for any of you who care to respond. I kinda need Sira to be self-absorbed and lacking in empathy at this point of the story because getting beyond those things is a central part of her arc. But at the moment she's a little off-putting to some (or many) readers. Any brilliant, elegant ideas for making a character like this sympathetic without being too in-your-face about it?

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15 minutes ago, Coop said:

Any brilliant, elegant ideas for making a character like this sympathetic without being too in-your-face about it?

I'd integrate it into her imaginative play as a very clear seed of her fear. When you describe her being afraid in the woods and such, instead of that fear being undefined and nebulous, give it a face. Give it aspects of her grandfather's face. A dark waterfall looks like melted skin. A lizard on a stone has bulging eyes that don't blink and it makes her think of missing eyelids. Branches that catch her clothes are skinless fingers grabbing at her. 

Right now, she reads as just being afraid. She's pretty old for such baseless fear, unless it really traumatized her. How old was she when first saw her grandpa like this? That sort of look could traumatize a young child, maybe four or five. Maybe she really loved him a lot. They were buddies and hung out together. Then this thing happens and she goes to see him one day and he turns to hug her, reaches for her, but it isn't grandpa, its THIS THING THAT ATE GRANDPA or something like that. Now we have understanding and empathy. Now we have a young woman who can't shake a childhood trauma instead of just a self absorbed teenager.

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Great idea @kaisa.

Maybe you can show her being caring and empathetic towards other people, or even animals? Give the reader a sense that she has it in her to be less self-absorbed. Or go the Writing Excuses route and make her either funnier (which I think she already is) or really good at something interesting.

I think she's close.  I already enjoy reading about her. As long as she grows up soon. :) 

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44 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I'd integrate it into her imaginative play as a very clear seed of her fear. When you describe her being afraid in the woods and such, instead of that fear being undefined and nebulous, give it a face. Give it aspects of her grandfather's face. A dark waterfall looks like melted skin. A lizard on a stone has bulging eyes that don't blink and it makes her think of missing eyelids. Branches that catch her clothes are skinless fingers grabbing at her.

Yeesh - I was going to comment until I read this  #markofapro

But wait, I forget, I have this uncontrollable urge to open my yap in most situations, so I'll take a swing anyway. I would say a light dusting of the above. Don't go too heavy on the grandpa imagery. In fact, I'd say maybe don't mention grandpa at all, but use the same sort of imagery - bark like twisted skin - or some such, give the reader the chance to make the connection without it being handed to them, at least at first.

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1 hour ago, Coop said:

But at the moment she's a little off-putting to some (or many) readers

Oh, and I had started to say, do you know what, I don't think it's such a big deal. So what that she's not empathetic to begin with, I think you have enough positive features about her, like the way she meets and beats the challenge of getting into the cave, and the way her inquiring mind researches the function of the gadgets on the suit. These are good human qualities. I would allow her to have the negatives at the start, because the story is still engaging, and it will redouble the payoff later on - because that's the promise you've made to the reader (I think), that their central relationship will turn around.

( *edit: But then I would stick up for the bratty part of her, I'm writing a potty-mouthed 14 year-old at the moment, after all. )

Edited by Robinski
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8 hours ago, kaisa said:

A dark waterfall looks like melted skin. A lizard on a stone has bulging eyes that don't blink and it makes her think of missing eyelids. Branches that catch her clothes are skinless fingers grabbing at her. 

Ooh - this is good! Nice thinking.

Kaisa, one thing I'm gathering from you is that Sira's treatment of Grandpa is off-putting and that it would help to provide more basis for her fears. Are there other things that made you dislike her? You mentioned how quick she was to cry in the cave. I'm just trying to make sure I'm considering everything. Thanks

 

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Just to give a broader perspective, I'm struggling with the same things others are in regards to Sira many pages (a little over halfway) later in the book. She needs to be unlikeable in her immaturity because of plot and conflict and growth and so on, but I wish there were something about her to balance that out. Some way you can keep the immature elements of her personality, but add in something else to give me something to like about her and make her a little more multidimensional.

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2 hours ago, krystalynn03 said:

Just to give a broader perspective, I'm struggling with the same things others are in regards to Sira many pages (a little over halfway) later in the book. She needs to be unlikeable in her immaturity because of plot and conflict and growth and so on, but I wish there were something about her to balance that out. Some way you can keep the immature elements of her personality, but add in something else to give me something to like about her and make her a little more multidimensional.

That is helpful to know, krystalynn. Thank you!

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So far you've mentioned that Sira is afraid of how her grandfather looks, but are there other aspects of his character that would annoy and/or frustrate Sira? Maybe he breezes funny because of the accident. Maybe he has to eat special food which smells or tastes funny. Maybe he talks different or has developed quirks and habits that really get under Sira's skin. This could booster your description while also showing that Sira doesn't take her grandfather's obvious suffering into account yet. 

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16 hours ago, Coop said:

Kaisa, one thing I'm gathering from you is that Sira's treatment of Grandpa is off-putting and that it would help to provide more basis for her fears. Are there other things that made you dislike her? You mentioned how quick she was to cry in the cave. I'm just trying to make sure I'm considering everything. Thanks

The emotion jumps don't make me dislike her, they make me frustrated because I want to know what is causing those jumps, and I didn't get an explanation until this chapter. Now I understand she has some deep fear associated with things changing, the comfortable becoming scary, etc, and that makes me empathize. Whether you want to tie it all back to the grandfather is up to you (for a middle grade book, probably best to keep it simple), but bringing out those aspects early on, even in other ways as @rdpulfer notes, would make me be on Team Sira right from the get go. 

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@Robinski   Oops. I was just starting my revisions today when I noticed that we have an actual "amateur John Cleese lookalike" among us. I would hate for my silly walk to step on anyone's toes or their mojo, so let me know if this is a problem and I can go back to either the Spaceman Spiff or Guy Fleegman backup plan I had in mind. ;)

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13 hours ago, Coop said:

@Robinski   Oops. I was just starting my revisions today when I noticed that we have an actual "amateur John Cleese lookalike" among us. I would hate for my silly walk to step on anyone's toes or their mojo, so let me know if this is a problem and I can go back to either the Spaceman Spiff or Guy Fleegman backup plan I had in mind. ;)

Rofl - no, really, it's fine. Any resemblance between me and Sir John of Cleese is purely tenuous and largely confined to the mind of @krystalynn03  :lol:

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OK--I think this one's been beat to death, but I'll throw in my late and quick comments.

Some of the dialogue still feels off for her age.  Sometimes Sira sounds like she's 8, sometimes about 13-14.  I think this ties into the "Stud" discussion.  If she's 8 and doesn't understand the word, I can see her saying it.  If she's 14, she would know to use another word.

pg 8: Augh!  Grandpa is terrifying!  Maybe mention this sooner in the narrative?  I would think Sira would note this sooner.  As it was, I thought she was having some waking nightmare at first.  Obviously the poor old guy can't help how he looks, but as @kaisa says, building that fear earlier, and knowing that it happened when Sira was younger and left an inpression on her will help us see why she reacts this way.

pg 10: Some disconnect between ch 4 and 5.  I didn't remember that she took the rod, just the clothes?
--oh, they're ON the costume.  Did not get that at all.  Yeah, too much description here.  I'm not following it.

pg 12: "Eventually—impulsively—she fired into her thigh,"
--would she really do this?

I was unclear on descriptions of the costume gadgets, and had to read a couple times to understand she was back in the bungalow.  Overall still enjoyable.  Just needs some rearranging of descriptions and things.

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