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08-15-16 - Waning 01 (mild L)


neongrey

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Well, here we are. One of these scenes should be loosely recognizable; the other has an element or two that might be but otherwise will not. I'm going to ask you to do your best to clear your mind of previous impressions of characters and the previous state of the work because the lay of the land is made quite different by this change. That said, more direct comparison to the old is fine, if you must.

Overall: The living goddess of the city of Ilidria is dead. Lasila of House Vahendra has other things on her mind: a wealthy new client needs an extensive contract negotiated, and her brother is going away to end the war draining the city dry. The goddess is an impersonal formality; soon she will be all alone in the world.

What I'm specifically looking for: Please tell me what sort of person you think Lasila is, based on this chapter alone, and without assessing whether you like that person or not (as best you can).

Gonna take a week or two off after this, try and get some of my buffer back. Thanks!

Edited by neongrey
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Well, since I've never read any of the previous versions, you can consider my mind clear. :)

Lasila read to me as someone who is complicated (definitely not flat), but I had a hard time getting a grip on her personality.  I came away with pieces but I don't see how they fit together yet.  She seems like a strong person who's ambitious and willing to push boundaries (for example, being a lawyer when women aren't allowed to practice in court), but when she's talking to her brother I get the impression she would rather he keep his head down and stay safe.  Maybe she's more concerned for the safety and comfort of those around her than for herself?  Maybe that translates into her being okay with ambition in herself but not in other people - which could be interesting.  Lasila seems to like politics and intrigue, and she seems practical, willing to take advantage of situations for her own sake.  I got the impression that she's not one for holding to principles for principles's sake.  But the comments on the last page suggest that she doesn't really like this about herself.  Finally, you made it clear that she's hardened herself to love, a fact reinforced by the way she interacts with her brother: she seems bitter with certain things about him (shoes left on the mat, feeling possessive of her tree), and she generally doesn't seem to show him much love, even though she gets upset when she thinks she would be without him.  Oh, and she definitely seems dissatisfied with her current status in life (job, money).

I got most of this from the discussion with her brother, rather than from her meeting with the rich client.  I couldn't read much into her actions when she was with the client.

Did I get it right?  ;)

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This is difficult.

Alright, time for a character analysis on Lasila.

If I assume the starting quote is from her culture, she'll be from a self-suppressing society. This seems to be the case as I read on. She kept her reactions toned down during the meeting to keep up appearances. I couldn't get much of a read on her during the first part since she shied away from her honest thoughts.

She's pragmatic, curious, and hungry for information. The requirement of keeping up appearances was a higher priority during the meeting, but those tendencies seemed to hover in her head.

Since being a lawyer is not a profession she's expected to be in, that tells me she greatly desires the benefits of this career. Enjoyment is not remotely involved. Money is mentioned a few times, so acquiring it is one of her main goals. Status might be, as well.

Then, we get to the scene transition. She's dissatisfied with the state of her surroundings, and feels resigned to where her life has ended up. Any hint or possibility of loss frustrates and depresses her. It wears her down, but she puts up a show of defiance before accepting the situation. She takes pride in all things she took the time to nurture.

In conclusion, Lasila comes off as a person who agrees with and tries to follow a safe, progressive, and logical path in life. She'll pursue any course of action that follows reason. That's who she's trying to be. When discussing or arguing, she draws on that self-image to make her points. Internally, her emotional motivations are centered around past losses. She seems to be driven with the desire of gathering resources that'll build a lossless world around her. Wealth, status, and power are all needed, but they're in short supply. She overworks as much as she can manage. Her cardinal hatred and fear is abandonment. Anyone or anything that falls under her care will be protected with fury.

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Well, I'll tentatively chalk this up as me not needing to have her strangle a dog or stand out in the desert in her underwear with a gun for a cold open, then. :v 

Sounds a lot like I'm much more where I need to be. On the one hand, I'm glad this is worthwhile, but yeesh, that was a lot of words I tossed, lol.

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Lasila's character:
I have a similar reaction to Hobbit's.  The first section shows Lasila as  active, and striving to get ahead (though the contract seems to have dropped in her lap).  Then in the second part, we find her deferring to Varinen.  She comes across as a little divided, and still very passive in a society that will grind her down to nothing if she doesn't put immense effort into getting ahead.


Notes while reading below (before I read your comments, so direct comparisons)

pg 1: "She understates; "
--This pulls me our of the story with the change to present tense.  It feels too much like heavy-handed narration.

Much better worldbuilding setup on the first page (from what I can remember) than the first time around.  I've already got a better sense of the world than I did at chapter 6 or 7 last time.

pg 3: better explanation of the social classes as well.  I'm still a little lost on the titles without referring to the appendix, but we'll see how that goes.

pg 4: "the affinities to heal wounds, to cure disease, they go hand in hand with working water."
--good intro to magic.  Either I missed this last time or it's new.

I also notice a lot more mention of how their society is built around having wings, which I like.

Overall, This seems like a much better start to the story.  You have more hints of the plot, I have a much better sense of how the world is laid out, and you have the peace talks with the shudkathra coming in already.  Lasila is more active, but I still feel like Varinen is more proactive, or at least has more of a set goal in what he's planning on doing.  He's leaving in two weeks and might get killed.  At the moment, I still don't know what Lasila wants, besides staying in her job and maybe getting some higher profile contracts to negotiate.  Again, it's definitely better than it was; I just feel there could be a little extra pop in it for a first chapter hook.

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Finally getting to this!

Overall

I enjoyed the first section. The death of the goddess colored the dialogue and had me really paying attention. The second half I was less interested in. I know it sets the stage, and it has good information, but these types of scenes, especially for an intro chapter, just seem...dull. I'd like a bit more conflict before we sit down and chat between brother and sister. Some tension, so discussion perhaps of things like, what if a new goddess doesn't rise? Does crime spike in-between goddesses? Does Lasila have a mystery client she needs to meet with soon? Just something to spark the imagination to get us through the sibling chat.

Lasila

From this chapter, I see her as very hard working. Very committed to her family (if only just through monetarily staying afloat). Concerned with keeping appearance, a soft spot for plants. Clearly going to have magic. That is implied through the flashback. Still a bit...passive in her reactions to the world, but I hesitate to say that because its only first chapter. I do say it because she's a lawyer, which is against society ATM, but when she talks about not being able to practice in a courtroom there is no anger. No fantasy of what she could if she could. When she speaks with her brother, it is calm. Not forceful, although playful. She's a very calm person, working with the system she has. This is fine, but it makes for a 'slower' character, one that can sometimes be hard to rally behind.

On August 17, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Mandamon said:

I have a similar reaction to Hobbit's.  The first section shows Lasila as  active, and striving to get ahead (though the contract seems to have dropped in her lap).  Then in the second part, we find her deferring to Varinen.  She comes across as a little divided, and still very passive in a society that will grind her down to nothing if she doesn't put immense effort into getting ahead.

I third this. First section is active. Engaging. Second is back to issues I had with the last draft.

On August 17, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Mandamon said:

Much better worldbuilding setup on the first page (from what I can remember) than the first time around.  I've already got a better sense of the world than I did at chapter 6 or 7 last time.

Also agree here. I have a very definitive sense of the world now. @Mandamon and I seem to track together on reviews a lot, recently.

As I go

- second paragraph lays out the society very nicely

- discussion of goddess death really holds my attention

- page three: that first discussion stretches a bit long. Shaving a few paragraphs off would help. I feel like it starts to meander in places.

- I love the flashback to her childhood dreams!

 

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- I also like the discussion of the goddess' death and the world-building present.

- I'm not sure I like her as a lawyer. It doesn't quite fit with this society, and feels a little too ... hammy perhaps given the rest of the book? 

- Maybe it's because she's part of the merchant class, so it seems odd she'd have much power against Senators and higher classes in this setting.

- I do like the pacing of the chapter - it seems to flow from one situation to the next. 

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1 hour ago, kaisa said:
On 8/17/2016 at 10:11 PM, Mandamon said:

I have a similar reaction to Hobbit's.  The first section shows Lasila as  active, and striving to get ahead (though the contract seems to have dropped in her lap).  Then in the second part, we find her deferring to Varinen.  She comes across as a little divided, and still very passive in a society that will grind her down to nothing if she doesn't put immense effort into getting ahead.

I third this. First section is active. Engaging. Second is back to issues I had with the last draft.

Just wanted to clarify - I actually enjoyed the second section with her brother more than the first section with the client.  (Sorry for adding confusion.)  I guess I thought the section with her brother told me a lot more about her as a character, and it had more interesting interpersonal tension.  I like those things.

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5 hours ago, kaisa said:

When she speaks with her brother, it is calm. Not forceful, although playful. She's a very calm person, working with the system she has. This is fine, but it makes for a 'slower' character, one that can sometimes be hard to rally behind.

Playful, really...? Do you mind calling out some things in particular that gave you that kind of vibe? If it's before her brother says what's going on with him, I'm less immediately concerned (not sure I'd characterize it that way myself, but it's within tolerance, I suppose), but if it's after-- her first reaction is a personal barb and sort of downhill from there, so if anything's sounding playful it needs adjusting.

6 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- I'm not sure I like her as a lawyer. It doesn't quite fit with this society, and feels a little too ... hammy perhaps given the rest of the book? 

Are you basing this on this chapter, or on the prior draft? Your phrasing makes me wonder.

5 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Just wanted to clarify - I actually enjoyed the second section with her brother more than the first section with the client.  (Sorry for adding confusion.)  I guess I thought the section with her brother told me a lot more about her as a character, and it had more interesting interpersonal tension.  I like those things.

I think barring tweaks (or another radical restructure, ofc) I'm fine with the split in this chapter; my eye here too is (primarily, even) on what the reader learns without realizing they've learned it, and in that sense I'm not terribly inclined to part these bits out. That they happen close together is for a reason too, relating to the assertion of control (and it's critical here that it be her brother and not someone known professionally).

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1 hour ago, neongrey said:

Do you mind calling out some things in particular that gave you that kind of vibe?

I was thinking of when she commented on him bringing back a husband, or something along those lines. I laughed. It didn't seem like a barb, more like a slightly edgy but still well-meaning sibling taunt.

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Hey neongrey, I'm afraid that I don't have much more to say about Lasila that hasn't been said above. The good thing is that I got a strong sense of her character and that she has the makings of a very real, multidimensional character. The world you've created also feels vivid and mysterious; I want to keep reading to know more about it. This is a little thing, but I also really like the names you've chosen for characters and places. Each one meshes well with the characters and with the overall tone of the story.

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1 hour ago, kaisa said:

I was thinking of when she commented on him bringing back a husband, or something along those lines. I laughed. It didn't seem like a barb, more like a slightly edgy but still well-meaning sibling taunt.

Okay, yeah, I can see that. Again, not sure I would read it that way myself but I can definitely see how you get there and I don't mind it, lol. 

31 minutes ago, Coop said:

Hey neongrey, I'm afraid that I don't have much more to say about Lasila that hasn't been said above. The good thing is that I got a strong sense of her character and that she has the makings of a very real, multidimensional character. The world you've created also feels vivid and mysterious; I want to keep reading to know more about it. This is a little thing, but I also really like the names you've chosen for characters and places. Each one meshes well with the characters and with the overall tone of the story.

Thanks! My secret is that I have access to a full procedural language generator; it produces a by-word substitution cipher so it's no good for grammar but it's perfect for making sure I don't have wonky phonemes or things that sound out. The use of language in stories is... somewhat important to me, lol. In a lot of ways this story has its origins waaaaaaay way back long enough ago that I don't even want to admit to it that I was taking Japanese and we were going over some stuff and our teacher was telling us how a direct "no" or "that's wrong" is usually quite rude... (certainly the honorifics have some relation in concept too, though they're mostly not analogous; wherever possible I avoid conscious emulation of real-world cultures. unconscious is of course unavoidable but does avoid awful hacking up cultures for parts and mashing them together without regard for societal development) 

I also get to do weird buried trivia like that shudkathra in the old chapter... 8 that Savae met (if anyone recalls); one (so long as that one is me, lol) could tell she's born on the surface because her name means daffodil, more or less

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Well, that was interesting. Certainly, Lasila seems a good deal more active, not that she wasn’t before in terms of doing her chores, so let’s say proactive. I thought she came over as suitably professional in the interview with Ilyua. I think Lissa has retained that frosty attitude towards the world that is entirely understandable, given what happened to her (or rather to her parents).

Being already active as a lawyer certainly means that’s she’s starting closer to her goal. That’s a comparison with the previous version, I realise, but I’ll go there. There’s something to be said for the greater satisfaction from her travelling from a lower base to reach her goal then again, presumably being more directly into the intrigue.

On balance, I'm going to plump for the latter. I think it’s good that there is (seems to be) a stronger basis for her to become directly involved in events from the outset. That would seem likely to be more satisfying up offer better pacing options.

The tension with her brother is still there, which I enjoy. I still have the nagging feeling that it’s harsh, but totally understandable given their family’s background.

<R>

 

p.s. - Totally love the honorific table. I hope that would be in the book, possibly as some sort of front piece, or certainly an appendix. I think it would be invaluable to the reader.

 

Edited by Robinski
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Hrm. My overall impression is that this is fine as a mid-book chapter - as others have said Lasilla is more active and we're not just in her head, but get to learn about her world through dialogue which is infinitely better.

That all being said, as a first chapter, however, it would not pull me into the story to keep reading. The chapter kept losing me.

I think for a first chapter you're trying to do too many things here when, really, the reader's interest should be focused on one key conflict. Also, in the past chapter where we met her, Iluya leapt off the page as a character, and here she's well behaved in a much less interesting way.  That all being said, maybe just keep writing and then come back to this when you know exactly where you want to start.

Other notes - I like the fact that honorifics will have their own table. 

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  • 5 months later...

It's been so long since I read this that I had to read it again to get back into the story, because I have a memory like a sieve. Apologies if I'm dredging up stuff you've moved on from (I have no doubt this is the case), however here are some comments anyway.

Reading your ‘sidebar’ story reminded me that I enjoy your style, and the complexity and detail of your storytelling, after that, curiosity to see how you had change things since we first started on the story in May ’16, well it peaked my curiosity, and the only place to start is at the beginning.

  • Strong first sentence, and straight away I find that Las seems more competent. I remember having technical issues with the canal, I think I can accept it now because the statement about forcing the water upward is so unequivocal. There must be a story-consistent reason why that happens., move on.

  • Nice introduction for Ilu, nice description, I get a strong sense of her appearance and also the room. However, “Her own chair wobbles”, bugs me, it’s discomfiting to imagine, but also it seems so unnecessary. I can’t see a good reason why the chair is without that wad of paper.

  • Most of what I do, it's not necessary anyway” – I don’t follow this line. I’d rather know here than wait to find out why, it casts doubt when I was perfectly comfortable at that point with Ilu coming to a female lawyer as an alternative. Her reasoning was sound, but this statement undermines my acceptance of the basis for this meeting. Would there be any harm in cutting this line? I don’t know what it’s there for.

  • There's much room for wealth, for power, if only she can distinguish herself” – I read this line several times, but still don’t feel I’ve got a good sense of what it means.

  • I do apologize." > "There is nothing to forgive” – I don’t think apologising and asking for forgiveness are the same thing. I ‘nothing to apologise for’ is the correct response from Las.

  • She's always morose when she hauls the water” – I think this should be past tense. Didn’t sound right to me, it sounds like it’s not in her POV.

  • foyer” sounds much bigger and grander than I think is the reality, compared to say ‘hall’ or ‘vestibule’.

  • The description of the meal, and the food that remains for Las is a subtle but highly effective sign of their financial position, I feel. It sits well with all the other cues and really underlines their social standing, I think.

  • But Las advises against love. She has seen the death brought on by a broken heart.” – Bam, powerful stuff.

  • Food seems far less important” – This is a tell, I would drop it.

  • Her comments about is marriage contract and talking to the neighbours leave me confused. She mentioned him finding a husband, a jibe I assumed, that’s fine. Is this more jibing? It seems muddy to me. I like her anger, it’s just the clarity here, for me.

  • It’s a well-played and well-paced argument, I like it better than before, more compact I think, and her expletive is a nice punchline, because it’s so unexpected.

It’s a well-timed conclusion to a nicely paced chapter, I thought, and an appropriate note of tension at the end, the fact of him leaving for so long. I don’t really need a line to draw me into the next chapter, because the characters are so well developed and engaging that I’m there already. I’m interested in seeing Las client work progressing, as there’s good grounding in the setting and current affairs. No actual explosions, but good promise of emotional ones to come, I think.

<R>

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14 hours ago, Robinski said:

Would there be any harm in cutting this line? I don’t know what it’s there for.

This bit is pretty much entirely to steer people away from the thought of the Law and Order type TV lawyers; that sort of courtroom drama image is pretty ingrained into the consciousness so this is about expectation setting. Lasila's not stepping into a court for the legal drama; that happens in offices. That said, there's probably a more elegant way to put this, yeah.

14 hours ago, Robinski said:

Her comments about is marriage contract and talking to the neighbours leave me confused. She mentioned him finding a husband, a jibe I assumed, that’s fine. Is this more jibing? It seems muddy to me. I like her anger, it’s just the clarity here, for me.

compare: 'what, are you finally getting married? but two weeks isn't long enough to plan & have a wedding'. Probably a bit clunkily-phrased as-is though.

(There's also the notation that there's no legal bar to him marrying a man were such a thing actually occurring.)

Thanks for revisiting, once I finish these next two chapters I'm coming back for generalized cleanup so extra notes are always good to have,.

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