8/15/16-krystalynn03-Roamwald:C19-20 (3624)

[krystalynn03]

For This Update
 

• So I haven't finished working out the kinks and considering the advice and perspective y'all gave me on the last chapter, but I've written and rewritten that bit so much that I need to get away from it for a while and come back to it fresh eyes later.
• In the meantime, I'd like to know the usual about this pair of chapters:
• How was the pacing?
• What worked for you?
• What didn't?
• There's some high tension moments. Did it read logically and believably to you?

 

 

 

[spieles]

Hrm. So some disbelief issues from me.

Right now my biggest source of disbelief is that Roamwald submits to this treatment from Nate and his men. I was thinking about it, and I realized that I still don't fully understand his deeper motivation. Is he an exile? We know he lost his family... Does he feel some debt to humanity? Without knowing that key motivator, I feel like he should just tell the men "no" and book it. There's no reason for him to put up with this right now, is there? I guess what I'm saying is that I need a deeper understanding of Roamwald's character here. What flaw does he have that would cause him to believably get into this situation? I feel like, right now, we're circling this.

Something else to consider. I'm not sure her mom would so easily come around to liking Roamwald According to Jennie's grandmother, wasn't one of her relatives snatched? Plus, her mom is very protective of her family. Even if her husband is starting to accept Roamwald, the mom still hasn't interacted with our big guy, so I'm not sure I buy her lack of suspicion. In fact, I think it might be more interesting if the mom was deeply protective of her family and did not trust Roamwald one bit.

A smaller thing - I found Jennie yawning and going to sleep very odd. I'd expect her to fight it with all her might until she collapsed from exhaustion.

Otherwise, I think the pacing of the chapter is good. The chapters definitely have clear arcs. I think any revisions should focus on character stuff.

[Coop]

Hey krystalynn, I thought you did a really nice job with these chapters. The tension and conflict escalate nicely. Good pacing. I got a better sense of Roamwald's character in these chapters. The writing was polished. I had only two issues come up as I read. One was that I don't think you need to have Jennie going to sleep and I was disbelieving that she actually could under the circumstances, even as late as it was in the night. The other is that this is a familiar sort of angry mob scene, and I would like to have a few more curveballs thrown at me. The scene played out about as I expected it would. However, your target age group may not have any issues with this, having not read as much as adults have.

Again, I liked these chapters and am interested in reading more!

[krystalynn03]

26 minutes ago, spieles said:

Right now my biggest source of disbelief is that Roamwald submits to this treatment from Nate and his men.

Could this be WRS? And by WRS I mean like...monthly reader syndrome (MRS)  since the last time Roamwald talked about his intentions was in chapter 16 which I submitted two and a half month's ago now...   On the other hand, I thought his last line at the end of chapter 20 should lead to the correct inference of his motives. I asked you not to read the previous iterations of this chapter--one of which was from Roamwald's viewpoint, and this is exactly why I didn't want you to. I wanted your smart brain to look at it without the benefit of that perspective that others come preloaded with now, which is why I want to make sure I pinpoint the breakdown very specifically. Thank you for being patient with me. To be fair to Roamwald, he does have bigger reasons for what he's doing--but they're the plot of a whole other book, which he hinted at in his own chapter and now I have to tease out a little in the chapter following this one in dialogue.

Also (worse) I told myself that I wouldn't work on responding to your feedback since I'm a week behind on your own subs (I'm getting to them soon!!!)

I'm going to chew on your assessment of Hanna. I've never liked this sequence, much for the reasons @Coop has cited--that it's predictable. I totally agree, and I don't much care for that (in fact I really dislike in books or movies) but on the other hand I've spent HOURS trying to juggle out what the most logical steps for each party is: Roamwald, Jennie, each parent, townsfolk, etc, and staging everybody at every move in every particular order. If you pull one piece around, it changes the entire rest of the picture. I would like to make this better--I love surprise, I do--I just don't know how without breaking where I'm taking the story. There's a lot of groundwork laid that's going somewhere, so this isn't a 'defining moment' in the plot--it's just an advancement. I would love for some thought of comment to force me into seeing something fresh, though.

 

[Mandamon]

Slightly different perspective, maybe because I read a larger section all together.  I thought you gave a much better explantion for why Roamwald was submitting to the men, and made their silliness in insisting on it much clearer.

Notes while reading:
pg 2: "beestings do us"
--bee stings

pg 3: "But I will say we’re mighty lucky he’s an agreeable sort."
--This section is much better.  Shows us that they realize how silly the situation is.

pg 6: "Mama said, “I’ve got tools, too. Tools to take care of those wounds on Roamwald."
--Good for her

pg 9: "only for him to gag and drop his head again."
--confused here.  I assume there's something tied around his neck?
--ok--you explain on the next page.

This has better tension than the last time, especially with the sheep.  The parents play a much more realistic part and are actively helping Jennie.
Looking forward to read new stuff next time!

[spieles]

On 8/16/2016 at 10:03 PM, krystalynn03 said:

Could this be WRS? And by WRS I mean like...monthly reader syndrome (MRS)  since the last time Roamwald talked about his intentions was in chapter 16 which I submitted two and a half month's ago now...   On the other hand, I thought his last line at the end of chapter 20 should lead to the correct inference of his motives. I asked you not to read the previous iterations of this chapter--one of which was from Roamwald's viewpoint, and this is exactly why I didn't want you to. I wanted your smart brain to look at it without the benefit of that perspective that others come preloaded with now, which is why I want to make sure I pinpoint the breakdown very specifically. Thank you for being patient with me. To be fair to Roamwald, he does have bigger reasons for what he's doing--but they're the plot of a whole other book, which he hinted at in his own chapter and now I have to tease out a little in the chapter following this one in dialogue.

It could be a little bit of WRS, but I still think motives should be felt very specifically in a scene like this, and even if his bigger reasons are the plot of whole other book, the reader should feel their weight deepened in these chapters and I'm not sure that's coming across. I think making it more specific could be done subtly, though. Even if Roamwald's story is a whole other book, he could give Jennie an analogy or a goofy story so that she (and the reader) understand. Personalized stakes, all of that. Like, I like that Roamwald has saved Jennie up to this point but I didn't care about him turning himself over that much in this scene - AND I WANTED TO CARE - i just thought he was an idiot for letting these stupid little men catch him. It was all weakness and no strength. That's really hard to root for. 

[Robinski]

MRK’s ABCD, yaddah, yaddah, (A) = Awesome; (B) = Boring; (C) = Confusing; and (D) = Disbelief (-inducing), plus (G) Grammar/typo.

Some nice stuff in this version, detailed comments below. I really like how you upped the panic in Roamwald’s demeanour, and the presence of the horses is effective in upping the feeling of chaos around the farm, and the sense of the village gathering around the new discovery.

All in all, these things ramp up the tension nicely, I think.

There are a couple of notes that I'm not convinced by, as noted below. But otherwise, nice job.

<R>

---------------------------------------------

Chapter 19

(C) – “Man alive!” Mama gasped. “That’s a day’s work.” Roamwald froze and grimaced, obviously embarrassed. “I’m sorry.” He glanced toward the house, too, repeating, “I can fix it. I mean, I will fix it. Gladly! I mean I didn’t mean to—” – This sounds weird. I guess you are going for the coincidence of him replying just after Mama exclaims, but it does sound like he has heard her.

(G) – “But they might really hurt him! His eyes are big easy targets when he’s down on the ground like this!” – This feels like repetition of her thought, because it is! I know her parents were not party to her thought, but it still feels unnecessarily repetitious from the reader’s pov.

(A) – “The man’s broad, black hat flopped up and down like bird wings” – Great image, I can see it.

(C) – “The moon was getting close to setting” – This threw me. Maybe WRS, but I was imagining daylight, or at least dusk, partly because I'm not sure how the heck they can see some of this stuff clearly from the house, to the level being described. I seem to remember that light level was a recurring comment as I read through before. “Jennie suppressed a yawn” – Okay, maybe it’s WRS.

Chapter 20

(C) – I feel the first paragraph could stand a bit of tidying up, it seems a tad overcomplicated, to me.

(G) – “Just as Jennie was almost close enough to get to Roamwald’s face, someone grabbed her by her shoulder” – But she’s not heading for his face, so the phrasing of this sounded odd to me. It sounds like it should say ‘had almost reached his face’, but that’s not where she’s going, right?

(D) – “I say what I mean and mean what I say” – I've heard this line before somewhere, and it sounds a bit fancy for the situation, a moment of high stress where his captors might start shooting his eyes out.

(D) – “It was something that had gone forgotten since the moment Roamwald first got shot” – This line is tell-y. The reader knows she must have forgotten about it.

(D) – I'm struggling with some of the aspects of this version. I'm very surprised that neither Mama nor Papa piped up while Jennie was running around throwing herself in front of axes. Also, “Wouldn’t a person have yelled for help long before just now?” – Not necessarily, they could be gagged or shocked or unconscious (ok, I know you said struggled) or be drowned out by all the noise and the fact that they are in among folds of thick cloth. I just don’t buy this line.

[krystalynn03]

On 8/22/2016 at 6:48 AM, spieles said:

i just thought he was an idiot for letting these stupid little men catch him. It was all weakness and no strength. That's really hard to root for. 

Thanks for taking time to respond thoughtfully a second time. This really clears up for me what bothered you in this section.

On another note, please be patient with me getting a critique back to you--tomorrow's the first day of school and I'm always pressed for time this time of year!

[krystalynn03]

On 8/17/2016 at 9:20 PM, Mandamon said:

Slightly different perspective, maybe because I read a larger section all together.  I thought you gave a much better explantion for why Roamwald was submitting to the men, and made their silliness in insisting on it much clearer.

Thanks, Mandamon. This helps me balance things as far as content revisions go.

[krystalynn03]

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

Some nice stuff in this version, detailed comments below. I really like how you upped the panic in Roamwald’s demeanour, and the presence of the horses is effective in upping the feeling of chaos around the farm, and the sense of the village gathering around the new discovery.

All in all, these things ramp up the tension nicely, I think.

Thank you, <R>! I appreciate you taking time to look at this (again!!!) (again!!!) and giving me good pointers to keep pushing it to a better form!

[Hobbit]

Hello krystalynn!  Finally getting around to posting.

As has been mentioned above, I wasn't sure what Roamwald's motivations were in submitting to the men, but since I had just started reading I took it as more of a mystery than a plot hole.  The last line in Chapter 20 gave me a good enough sense of his motivations to be ready to move forward with the story.

I thought the tension built nicely.  However, I didn't get a great sense of Jennie's character from this chapter, and for me that lowered the tension from what it could have been.  She's acting in ways that are fairly universal for anyone in this situation - scared for her friend, feeling powerless against the adults, etc.  I could really feel what she was feeling, but I didn't get a sense of who she was.  I'm sure this is in large part because I'm picking up the story in the middle, but I thought I'd mention it.  

I liked the scenes with her parents - I got a good sense of their relationship.  

The high tension moments in Chapter 20 read smoothly to me.  I could really picture what was happening.  

On 8/16/2016 at 9:43 PM, Coop said:

this is a familiar sort of angry mob scene, and I would like to have a few more curveballs thrown at me. The scene played out about as I expected it would. However, your target age group may not have any issues with this, having not read as much as adults have.

I agree with Coop's comment here, again though it might not matter for your audience.  (Is it Middle Grade?)

[krystalynn03]

Hi there, Hobbit!

Thanks for reading and for giving me thought-provoking critique.

I completely agree with you on the point of Jennie. The book is from her POV, but the scenes here where it spins out of control for her have given me problems since the first draft years ago. Originally, I tried to use omniscient through this sequence and Jennie wasn't a part of it at all. I thought that was weird, so I tried having it from Roamwald perspective, but that drew attention away from her and her family and caused readers to focus on things unimportant to this particular plot. I've tried to draw Jennie back into the scene and make her more 'active', but as you note, it's not a defining moment for her and it's pretty reasonable and predictable. There's not a lot of I can ask a 10 year old to do here among all these adults without making her unbelievable. Everything she did before and everything she will do after is more important than here. I don't like it, but I need it.

Yes, it is middle grade, and I agree with Coop, too.

[Hobbit]

Hey krystalynn,

I can see how this would be a difficult chapter to draw a specific personality out of a 10 year old.  And again, it might not matter for readers who are already familiar with Jennie from the previous chapters.  I'll let you know if I get a better sense of her character as I read more about her.

Why are high tension scenes so tough?  Maybe this is why Tolkien did the Fall of Isengard in flashback... 

[krystalynn03]

18 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Why are high tension scenes so tough?  Maybe this is why Tolkien did the Fall of Isengard in flashback... 

Hm. I've written tension scenes before and I didn't think they were hard to do all the time. The problem for me is the more variables in an equation the rougher it gets because every time you tweak one you have to consider its affect on everything else. It's like working an algebra problem. This is even more complicated when you have a particular goal that you need to reach for the rest of the book to stay the way you want it. At least, that's the annoying part for me. My hands are tied to some degree trying to make sure (since this is a revision, not a first draft) that I achieve the 'correct' outcome in a logical way.