Sand Mastery New Info from NewsLetter

[Pathfinder]

So in the latest news letter, Brandon literally said that the magic is powered by the water from the sand master which fuels the lichen on the sand's life cycle. So the magic and ecology requires multiple components. You need the lichen on the sand, the sun to charge it, and water from the sand master to use it. Perhaps the water is how the lichen propagates, and the sun is what matures it? So basically what I am saying is, the lichen matures with the sun to reproductive or "fungal" stage to release spores but is dependent on water to release those spores to spread the lichen. That turns it black. The sunlight then causes the lichen to start the cycle over again. Even if I am incorrect in that, the fact that Brandon stated it was part of the lichen's life cycle clues us in that sand mastery is actually a much larger part of that world than allomancy ever was to Scadrial. At least in my opinion. 

P.S. I did get permission from Weiry Writer to discuss this subject and where to post it. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Landis963]

What's this about lichen, and where was it in the pages of White Sand vol. 1?  

[Pagerunner]

Interesting idea, but I think there's more than just the natural lifecycle of the sand-lichen in play. There must be a magical component to 'activating' the lichen and turning the sand black; if it just required water, then any time the sand got wet, it would turn black. I think we see an analogue in other magic systems for how the water is required: Sand Mastery consumes water the same way Allomancy consumes metal, Surgebinding (some Surgebinding, at least) consumes heat, and Awakening consumes color.

So, it requires water for a Sand Master to access the lichen's Investiture, but where would that Investiture come from in the first place? I don't think the lichen can generate Investiture on its own; as with all magic systems, the power must come from the Shard (just like Allomancy wasn't powered by metals, but ultimately by Preservation). With the widely held theory that Autonomy is the sun (supported in WS1 where they discuss the sun as the manifestation of the Sand Lord), then the sunlight could be the mechanism of Investiture transfer (possibly gaseous Investiture, like Stormlight or the Mist), and the lichen merely stores and releases it.

So, while I agree with the main thrust of your argument (that white lichen dies when used, turns black, and returns to white as the new lichen grows), I think it requires Investiture to grow (not just sunlight), and the water isn't what specifically kills it (it's the act of a Sand Master drawing on the stored Investiture).

I think the difference has implications on Sand Mastery in the rest of the Cosmere. If it's just sunlight and water, then the lichen is specifically adapted to Taldain, and I don't think it would fare well in a water-rich environment. If it thrives on Investiture, then I think the lichen could absorb Breath or Stormlight or Mists or whatever to recharge itself, probably much more quickly than it would normally take the sun on Taldain.

Moving beyond that, I wonder if the lichen has anything to do with how Sand Masters are Initiated. What if there's a symbiosis between lichen and human in the Sand Master's body, and the more lichen you have, the more you can control? When the Sand Masters lost their power, it was because the poisoned water killed the lichen in them (which, as it died, sucked the water out of them)? Kenton, with the smallest 'symbiote,' didn't feel its effects until much later, and then he got a new colony when he regained his powers? (Please be kind, those with the prose version, and don't laugh at me too hard behind my back...)

Oh, and @Landis963 , the lichen isn't mentioned in the graphic novel. As Pathfinder mentioned, it's something Brandon talked about in his latest newsletter, which he recently sent out.

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Interesting idea, but I think there's more than just the natural lifecycle of the sand-lichen in play. There must be a magical component to 'activating' the lichen and turning the sand black; if it just required water, then any time the sand got wet, it would turn black. I think we see an analogue in other magic systems for how the water is required: Sand Mastery consumes water the same way Allomancy consumes metal, Surgebinding (some Surgebinding, at least) consumes heat, and Awakening consumes color.

So, it requires water for a Sand Master to access the lichen's Investiture, but where would that Investiture come from in the first place? I don't think the lichen can generate Investiture on its own; as with all magic systems, the power must come from the Shard (just like Allomancy wasn't powered by metals, but ultimately by Preservation). With the widely held theory that Autonomy is the sun (supported in WS1 where they discuss the sun as the manifestation of the Sand Lord), then the sunlight could be the mechanism of Investiture transfer (possibly gaseous Investiture, like Stormlight or the Mist), and the lichen merely stores and releases it.

So, while I agree with the main thrust of your argument (that white lichen dies when used, turns black, and returns to white as the new lichen grows), I think it requires Investiture to grow (not just sunlight), and the water isn't what specifically kills it (it's the act of a Sand Master drawing on the stored Investiture).

I think the difference has implications on Sand Mastery in the rest of the Cosmere. If it's just sunlight and water, then the lichen is specifically adapted to Taldain, and I don't think it would fare well in a water-rich environment. If it thrives on Investiture, then I think the lichen could absorb Breath or Stormlight or Mists or whatever to recharge itself, probably much more quickly than it would normally take the sun on Taldain.

Moving beyond that, I wonder if the lichen has anything to do with how Sand Masters are Initiated. What if there's a symbiosis between lichen and human in the Sand Master's body, and the more lichen you have, the more you can control? When the Sand Masters lost their power, it was because the poisoned water killed the lichen in them (which, as it died, sucked the water out of them)? Kenton, with the smallest 'symbiote,' didn't feel its effects until much later, and then he got a new colony when he regained his powers? (Please be kind, those with the prose version, and don't laugh at me too hard behind my back...)

Oh, and @Landis963 , the lichen isn't mentioned in the graphic novel. As Pathfinder mentioned, it's something Brandon talked about in his latest newsletter, which he recently sent out.

But every time the sand does get wet it does turn black. Also I was not necessarily saying the lichen "dies" when it turns black. Just that is when it releases its "spores" or spreads. That the water activates that portion of its life cycle. Lichen in real life changes color when wet and is in a symbiotic relationship with fungus. Perhaps, as you said, and I was thinking as well, the sand masters are in symbiotic relationship with the lichen, but not from housing them, but by helping propagate them. 

[Pagerunner]

I don't have the book in front if me, did it turn black when Kenton poured water on the ground?

[Mestiv]

I wonder is there are anny connectins between Taldain and First of the Sun. 

Spoiler

After all in both worlds we see microorganisms involved with magic.

 

[WeiryWriter]

31 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I don't have the book in front if me, did it turn black when Kenton poured water on the ground?

I just checked and it doesn't, which I'm pretty sure is an error.

[Pagerunner]

41 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

I just checked and it doesn't, which I'm pretty sure is an error.

Why do you think it's an error? Does it turn black in the prose version? (Am I even allowed to ask that?)

EDIT: Never mind, I see your post in the Typos thread.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pagerunner

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

I just checked and it doesn't, which I'm pretty sure is an error.

Spoiler

Sorry that I let that slip. In the prose it came up much earlier, and I hadn't realized it didn't in the graphic novel in the same scene. 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Argent]

1 hour ago, Landis963 said:

What's this about lichen, and where was it in the pages of White Sand vol. 1?  

It's not in the graphic novel yet. Even the prose doesn't go much into it. This info is coming from the latest newsletter, however, which makes the information a fair game for everyone.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

... the magic is powered by the water from the sand master which fuels the lichen on the sand's life cycle. So the magic and ecology requires multiple components. You need the lichen on the sand, the sun to charge it, and water from the sand master to use it. ....

Really ?
It's nice to see that my old Sand-Mastery's Model was right ... Now I have to see if my whole Taldain-Magic's Model is right 

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Yata said:

Really ?
It's nice to see that my old Sand-Mastery's Model was right ... Now I have to see if my whole Taldain-Magic's Model is right 

Makes me wonder......if someone brought lichen covered white sand to Roshar for instance, and was able to make a field of sand for it to propagate on during highstorms, would the lichen spread and would the Rosharan sand be able to be mastered?

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Makes me wonder......if someone brought lichen covered white sand to Roshar for instance, and was able to make a field of sand for it to propagate on during highstorms, would the lichen spread and would the non native sand be able to be mastered?

I don't think... But we have to understand if the Lichen are itself coded with Autonomy's Investiture and the potential Sand Mastery from Human. Or the Humans are coded with Sand Mastery's Talent.

In the first case the Lichen will not grow in an Highstorm, in the second case yes they would.

I think may be some kind of Nalthis analogue:

Spoiler

The Breath, fuel for Awakening are pretty free to proliferate and be given to everyone.. But only a Nalthisian's Spirit-Web has the right "code" to use Awakening.

 

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

I don't think... But we have to understand if the Lichen are itself coded with Autonomy's Investiture and the potential Sand Mastery from Human. Or the Humans are coded with Sand Mastery's Talent.

In the first case the Lichen will not grow in an Highstorm, in the second case yes they would.

I think may be some kind of Nalthis analogue:

  Hide contents

The Breath, fuel for Awakening are pretty free to proliferate and be given to everyone.. But only a Nalthisian's Spirit-Web has the right "code" to use Awakening.

 

Sorry to clarify I meant if for instance Kenton went to Roshar with a vial of Taldain's white sand. He then got a villa, and being seen as an eccentric, had a wide area pit filled with sand. He then added this vial of sand to it. Finally he periodically added stormlight infused gemstones to the spot he poured Taldain's white sand. Then he would master the Taldain white sand. Then he would place more infused stones to see if that would change the black sand white. Then by continuing this process, would the lichen then grow, till it covered all the sand. Then Kenton, since he has the spirit web for sand mastery (which we do not fully know how it works as it can be taught), can master the entire pit of sand? It holds all the requirements for its ecology. It gets investiture from the stormlight, and water from the sand master. 

[Yata]

ok now I understand what you meant.

I don't think this may work because it will be as fuel (for example) Allomancy with Breath... Probably there is a way to use it, but it would need some kind of Hack from Kenton to made the whole process work... Maybe Khriss may help him to find a way.

[Oversleep]

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed with that revelation - it means that Sand Mastery is even more planet-locked than Sel's systems I mean, even AonDor theoretically could be used on another planets, but Sand Masters would have to not only make a hack which allows them to draw on another Investiture source, but also spread the lichen in other worlds.

[Yata]

8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed with that revelation - it means that Sand Mastery is even more planet-locked than Sel's systems I mean, even AonDor theoretically could be used on another planets, but Sand Masters would have to not only make a hack which allows them to draw on another Investiture source, but also spread the lichen in other worlds.

I have to say it. Last evening I read this post but I was tired and I decided to anser it this morning (Time zone problems ) but now I read another post on this forum who seems to agree with your views (and as side effect destroy my model of Taldain's Magic).

Probably the Lichen would be uncapable of growing outside of Taldain. But you may take with you a lot of Sand to use it.

[Mestiv]

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

Probably the Lichen would be uncapable of growing outside of Taldain. But you may take with you a lot of Sand to use it.

You can take sand with you, but I think it wouldn't "regenerate" back to being white after you use it without Taldain sun. 

[Yata]

2 minutes ago, Mestiv said:

You can take sand with you, but I think it wouldn't "regenerate" back to being white after you use it without Taldain sun. 

you have right (if of course we are not wrong about the Lichen's recharge) but White Sand is quite common in Dayside. It's possible to began a web of Sand trasport in the Cosmere (but we have to see how much is hard worldhop from Taldain).

[SAMWAF]

This is a dumb question, but what newsletter is this? The one on Brandon's website? I literally subscribed on Friday and got an old issue (January 2016). Am I missing something?

[Landis963]

On 7/2/2016 at 3:37 AM, Yata said:

you have right (if of course we are not wrong about the Lichen's recharge) but White Sand is quite common in Dayside. It's possible to began a web of Sand trasport in the Cosmere (but we have to see how much is hard worldhop from Taldain).

Taldain has a living Shard and therefore a Shardpool, so it should only be a matter of finding the perpendicularity and setting up a viable trade route from wherever the sand is being "mined" (I assume one of the deep sand regions would be the best for this purpose) to wherever it is.  Then set up an outpost of sorts within walking distance from Taldain's shore in the Cognitive Realm.  And for the third impossible task, the last leg of the trade route needs to run over the Cognitive Realm of Taldain's Dayside, from perpendicularity to outpost.  However, it does have the saving grace of not being as difficult as Sel.  

Edited July 4, 2016 by Landis963

[Kingsdaughter613]

Taldain is actually inaccessible for unknown reasons. At least in the current time. With regard to the magic system, I'm pretty sure I read a WOB a while ago that said the process of photosynthesis has something to do with the magic.

With regard to lichen growing, it may just need Sunlight. I actually think Dark side magic will be harder to transfer as, judging by the above WOB and the book intro, it should use some sort of plant that would need a high UV concentration to grow. Possibly this 'black light' too.

[yafeshan]

Can anyone link the released newsletter please. For some weird reason I cant get myself registered in newsletter for quite some time.

[teknopathetic]

I have an old old old reddit WOB that answers some of these questions, but i messaged Brandon to ask if im allowed to share it. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by teknopathetic

[Argent]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I have an old old old reddit WOB that answers some of these questions, but i messaged Brandon to ask if im allowed to share it. 

If it's old, it's about the unpublished White Sand, which automatically makes it non-canon. It's likely that it will end up being canon eventually, but as of yet it is not - so I'd bet it's okay to share it.

5 hours ago, yafeshan said:

Can anyone link the released newsletter please. For some weird reason I cant get myself registered in newsletter for quite some time.

Somebody posted it on Reddit and Brandon said it was okay.