The bland romance in each of Brandon's books I have read

[Luciellav]

The first time I arrived to this forum I had finished reading Bands of Mourning and was confused about many many things. At that time I had only read Mistborn era 1, the 2 books of era 2 and Elantris.

 

This time I'm very very happy to have finished reading Warbreaker,  Way of Kings , Words of Radiance and Mistborn Secret History.

 

I'm still missing some books, but now that yesterday night I finished Words of Radiance, I found that the romance in every novel has been... lacking. 

 

Oh I don't l know, maybe because I'm a woman, I unconsciously want more pages about developing romance between my fav characters.

 

But, I do felt disappointed on the following romances: 

 

***Spoilers for Warbreaker, Words of Radiance, Mistborn era2****

 

Words of Radiance

Since it's the book I have just finished and is very fresh in my head. I found that Shallan x Adolin and the maaaaaybe Shallan x Kaladin, lacked pages.

We read pages upon pages of place descriptions, politics and religion. But the flirting between Shallan and Adolin...was soo short that I could not believe -when- those two actually fell for each other.  I mean, first (or second) date between those two and Shallan asks how Adolin poops. I don't know in Roshar, but here if a guy asked me that in the second date, I would not find him enchanting or irresistible. I would think he is a redneck or lacked basic social skills. Hell, I have dated guys for years and the topic never came out.

Anyway, they also rarely talk about the feelings for each other. Seems like their relationship is...like a shadow that sometimes they deal with. I know that the book is not about romance...but heeey something more than a rushed action movie of 90min romance, would be great.  

 

Also there are scenes I was hoping to read, like I loved all the chapters when Kaladin and Shallan are trapped in the abyss. I was hopping to read their thoughts on their developing attraction after waking up cuddling each other just after surviving a highstorm. I wanted to read the full way back, not told from another point of view that "and they arrived safe and sound -more and less-". That half day was lost.

Damnation, after those two meaningful days, there are like 2 pages given on the thought of each other and then nothing. Not even a shock conversation when Shallan finds out Kaladin is a Radiant as well. They don't even talk to each other at the end of the book!

 

Warbreaker

Siri x Susebron. We read so little of their relationship, that to me one day she had a friend and boom then next they got incredibly in love and had sexy time. I wanted to understand that relationship better, with all the implications it had. Instead we go in circles in other plot points that to me had no real relevance to the end story, like Vivenna's tug recruitment quest.

 

Mistborn era 2

Wax x Steris. Steris doesn't really figure in AoL, but she is very present in BoM. There is a period of time between those two books that their relationship starts to bloom, despite Wax's pain. So I would have liked to know more why Wax became enamoured of her, to me he had a better relationship with Marasi. And had more thoughts about her than thoughts about Steris. His love to Steris came sort of weird to me. Not really well stablished. 

 

 

In contrast Vin and Elend have a more stable relationship development, or so I think. 

 

What are your thoughts guys?

 

 

 

[maxal]

I think it perhaps has to do with your expectations. By reading your post, I understand you expected the romance sub plot to take more page time into the story then it truly did. When it didn't, you felt left down. It perhaps had to do with other books you have read where romance took over a larger part of the story. This being said, everyone will acknowledge the fact romance isn't Brandon's strongest point.

 

For my part I was not disappointed by it as I was not exactly expecting it. There are things I expected which didn't pan out and there are thing I expect out of book 3 which may not happen, but WoR didn't disappoint me with its romance. For one, I actually enjoyed Adolin and Shallan's first date: I found it cute, adorable and refreshing. The poop joke had me rolled down laughing and had someone used it me: it would have worked. It tackles to how different people react to different events... Adolin is playful, young and stuck in a never-ending mode where he repeats the same discourse over and over again. It is a pattern: first he meets the girl (or to be more accurate, the girl presents herself), then he has a date where he recites the same stories made to make him appear as people expect him to be (oh so brave), then the girl pretends to fawn over him and well a few dates later, Adolin gets scared and screws it up. This time, Shallan completely disarmed him with her curious questioning (seriously how did knights poop when wearing their armor is amount one of the most asked questions in museums....): he forgot his speech which allowed him to be more... natural. Once his protection lowered, he confides in her something personal and he was hooked. To me, it was entirely plausible. Shallan is pretty, exotic (her entrance into the courtroom is very reminiscent of Shshshshsh's entrance into the bunker: father and son both start to stare at the hair), intelligent, but not arrogant or dismissive. She doesn't take him for dumb which is one of Adolin's sore spot. Adolin crushing on Shallan, despite the few dates, works for me.

 

As for Shallan, she does not love Adolin. She manipulates him to her own ends, so her lack of thoughts, despite finding handsome, is not surprising. Courting Adolin only is one task on her long list, so she devotes to it the time she has, which is not much.

 

As for the chasm scene, I would be careful before referring to it as an "attraction". For my part, reading them waking up in each other's arm and looking into their eyes passionately wouldn't have work. For one, it would be implausible for both characters to behave this way (neither are romantic and it will take much more than a few confidence down in a chasm where they thought they would die for Kaladin to start thinking of engaging into anything serious with a lighteyed) and for second whatever there is between this two has yet to grow into true romantic feelings. There is a curiosity, but neither has even begin to broach those feelings.

 

There are many scenes we did not get. For instances, why didn't we get Adolin's POV after Shallan falls into the chasm? There are several reasons: either nothing interesting happened or it would have been too spoiler-y for future event. So why didn't Shallan and Kaladin talked more after learning they were both Radiants? Maybe because they didn't have time or maybe they had more important things to do than talking to each other or a lot of maybe. 

 

In the case of Warbreaker, I'd point out it was a rather short book. It couldn't realistically spend too much time on the romance, but I thought it was acceptable. We read how Siri starts up as scared of Susebron until she figures out he is more scared of her than her of him. They slowly start to approach each other: the intimacy takes a while to happen. For my part, it was plausible enough. Sure it wasn't a great love story, but neither do I expect those when I pick up a Brandon's book.

 

Mistborn 2 though I thought it was done brilliantly. How Steris evolved from a background character to a more prominent and a rather cool one was a great surprise. Wax slowly over coming Lessie's death in order to open-up to Steris, who would not have been his first choice, was sweet. I thought it was rather well explained in the book why he prefers Steris: she is surprising, resourceful, sweet, a formidable planner, a good observer and her mental process allows her to make links nobody else does. Sure she isn't shooting people, but simply because Wax holds guns does not mean his partner has to do the same. I also disagree Marasi makes a better match. For one, she is too young for him, for second simply because they have work in common does not make them romantically compatible.

 

Over all, I think your disappointments comes from your expectations and perhaps your personal tastes in romance. To me, your preference for Kaladin/Shallan and Wax/Marasi indicates a preference towards ships where both characters share a lot of common characteristics. Kaladin and Shallan are both Radiants and broken while Wax and Marasi are both law people with a love for actions and guns. You also seem to prefer ships where both partners argue a lot as opposed to more abnormal ships in between seemingly implausible partners. It strikes to me Brandon, as an author, seem to prefer to show how romance can bloom from unexpected people in unexpected circumstances. While I agree Brandon certainly isn't a great romance writer, it may be what he does write simply does not fall within your personal preferences. There is nothing wrong with this.

[Luciellav]

I agree with you about having different tastes in the pairings.

About the chasm after waking up, I wasn't expecting them to look at their eyes and go lovely dovey. I was more on the idea of "that seed that just got planted" and some conflict or maybe more funny discussions between the two. I had so much fun when they were on their dad jokes competition. I guess I wanted more bonding between the two of them. Kaladin is an interesting character because of his continued development as well as Shallan. They are my fav characters, yet in real life I would take an Adolin type of personality 100 times before a Kaladin type (I have to thank experience for that).

At the end of the books it seems to me rushed even in the non romance parts. I would have liked to read the conversation of how Dalinar deduced he was also a Radiant. Yet comes out of the blue as well as Renarin. I was like "wait wait wait a sec...what the hell?" A ton of stuff happened on very few pages, they were there like what seemed many days or weeks for so many people to arrive and explore the tower.

Ah I really wanted that conversation to happen between Kaladin and Shallan, I thought I would have been funny. But oh well.

I'm not entirely certain she doesn't at least feel a very strong attraction towards Adolin. Which leads me to ask why Adolin takes the back seat and never starts any physical advances towards Shallan?

As for Steris. damnation I must be the only person in the forum that dislikes her.

She passes to me as a very psychotic with serious OCD, extremely low selfsteem and bad personality individual. I wouldn't like someone like her in my group of friends. She is still interesting to read about but I don't think is the best for Wax.

But that's just me and my opinion about her.

In all I don't want romance to take a first seat on the stories, just a little more development. But you are again right. This is not Brandon's strong point.

[Oversleep]

Shallan is pretty, exotic (her entrance into the courtroom is very reminiscent of Shshshshsh's entrance into the bunker: father and son both start to stare at the hair), intelligent, but not arrogant or dismissive.

Shshshshsh? Did I miss some Dalinar's flashback from Oathbringer?

 

Why in Stormlight Archive there is no much room for romance? Well, they've got Apocalypse going on. They have priorities. I'm not surprised why Kaladin left for Hearthstone immediately.

[Young Bard]

I suppose it all depends on your individual tastes. Some people are more into the whole romance side of things than others. Personally, I find it fine where it is. If anything, I could have coped with slightly less in Warbreaker.   It's been a while since I read it, so forgive me if I get something wrong, but I seem to recall a gradual shift from fear of one another, to curiosity, into a steady relationship. Particularly through the transition of Siri being the ignorant one at the beginning, being thrust into a position of maturity, to her eventual realization that Susebron is even more naive and inexperienced than she is, which was quite a powerful moment.

 

I guess it's just a matter of taste, I suppose.

[king of nowhere]

maxal summed it up quite well, i have a few comments to make on my own:

 

- the end of WoR was quite rushed, but that's a matter of editorial pacing; remember, the stomrlight archive is not ten books, it is one single story that got split into ten separate books; and in order to sell, each book needs a convincing start and end, at least at the beginning. it would not do to sell a book that does not stand on its own at the beginning of a series. so, brandon rushed a few things there. I expect that at the beginning of the third book the pace will slow down and maybe we will see some of those scenes you hope to see.

- i also find a bit suspicious how quickly shallan and adolin fall for each other, but i got convinced pretty soon that they fit with each other. particularly because they don't care to conform to what is expected from people of their rank. Oh, and the poop question would work for me too; it shows that the girl is genuine and that she is not afraid to appear unfeminine. She is also unlikely to be squeamish, an attribute i find highly annoying.

- in the warbreaker annotations, sanderson explicitly said that he had to rush the siri-susebron scenes because he had other things going on. it works better if you consider that they spend together every nigh for several weeks or even months, and we only get to see three or four short times.

-

Wax x Steris. Steris doesn't really figure in AoL, but she is very present in BoM

 

hey, there is another book between those two, shadows of self, that you are not mentioning. Did you by chance skipped it? because that would explain stuff. in SoS, wax and steris form what can be probably considered a solid friendship with mutual respect going both ways. I still think he and marasi would have made a better couple, though now that i think about it, what did they have in common besides fighting bad guys? Still, i can understand how wax would want to avoid that, especially since he still wasn't over lessie at the time.

 

Overall, I like sanderson romances. they quite fit with the way I live my feelings. The only complaint I have is that he is overusing the "perfectly arranged marriage" trope; elantris, warbreaker, WoR and BoM, four times out of four, it's growing predictable.

[Nyali]

I think I have to disagree on Brandon being bad at romance. I think some of his romantic situations are pretty downright adorable and interesting. I love that he almost never writes love polygons, which I find contrived and utterly stupid (I'm polyamorous, so I have a really hard time understanding love triangles and the like). I like that his apparent triangles are actually something entirely different, and the characters take time figuring that out. He has plots where characters fall in love with each other in absence of direct conflict against that love, and to me, that's pretty refreshing after some of the other stories I've been consuming.

 

That said, Brandon has written a specific romantic scenario four times now that I can think of, and let me put this behind a tag just in case (spoilers for most of Sanderson's books):

The romances you've pointed out are all that scenario - the scenario of an arranged marriage where the two wind up falling in love for real. Shallan and Adolin, Siri and Susabron, Steris and Wax, Sarene and Raodan. The scenario is interesting to me, and it's not badly done in my opinion in any of those four cases, and there are differences between them, but really, it's getting a bit expected. I'd love for him to just once write an arranged marriage between main characters where they don't get along and it isn't perfect and romantic.

 

The Wax and Steris situation, I felt did have enough pages. You have to keep in mind that those books are pretty short, a quarter the length of, say, a Stormlight book. Also, a lot of the romantic progression happens off screen between SoS and BoM, but the progression is definitely there, and I really enjoyed some of the scenes in BoM that led up to the final decision. It was a natural progression of Wax's character too, and Steris's whole thing the entire book was that she was clearly in love with him and doing her best to support him in various ways while hiding her true feelings behind her mask of being utterly boring. Sure, some of it was subtle, but I like subtle romances. I hate teenage angsty "romance" crap that goes on for pages and pages about the agony of being in love or some stupid thing like that.

 

I find Brandon's romances are generally more "adult." Being married, I know what the best traits are in a spouse, and they are not the same things you look for when you're young and new to dating. A lot of his romances focus around the two things that true romance is based on - complimenting personalities and compatible lifestyles. I loved that AoL was set up as one of those stories where the main character gets engaged to someone he's not really interested in, then runs off on adventures with another woman who is obsessed with him, and everything is there to expect him to leave his fiancee for the other woman. But, he doesn't. And, if you were paying attention, that is totally the right decision, for everyone involved. Marasi is obsessed with him, not in love with him, and he doesn't feel anything toward her. She's set up to be reminiscent of Lissy, but she's a totally different person and any interest he'd have in her would just be him trying to get back something he lost, which doesn't work.

 

 

On the Warbreaker front, I'm biased there due to the medium I first experienced it through - the audio drama rendition by Graphic Audio. Even though how the romance would work out was a little contrived and totally predictable, I thought the actors did a great job conveying the romantic progression and wound up really enjoying that sub-plot when I didn't expect to. i don't know if I'd feel the same way if I read it first. 

 

 

For Stormlight, I feel that there's a lot of complexity going on there that you're glossing over. Shallan had heard of Adolin a long time ago since practically every young woman on Roshar knew about him because he's a beautiful prince of one of the strongest kingdoms in the world. When the casual was arranged, she was excited because of what she had heard of him, but she was also desperate for it to work out because it was the only way she could see to save her brothers whom she loved more than anything. That last point is the most important, because she would do anything to save her brothers, even murder and steal. She wanted so hard to be the perfect woman for Adolin so he had no reason to break off the casual, especially after Jasnah dies and there's no longer any reason for the Kholins to honor the arrangement.

 

Adolin, on the other hand, is sick of women breaking up with him. He's just so clueless about romance that he doesn't understand why they keep leaving, even though he mostly ignores them and then absently flirts with everyone he meets without even realizing it, even with his current girlfriend right there. So, he also wants the casual to work out, because that way, she's far less likely to leave, and he doesn't really seem to care much who he winds up marrying since he's interested in just about every woman he meets (or at least, he thinks he is).

 

So the two of them go into that first dinner both trying so very hard to pretend to be the perfect lady and perfect prince, doing and saying all the things they think are expected of them. And that lasts a few minutes before Shallan breaks down and the poop conversation ensues. That whole conversation, the realization that neither of them is who they were pretending to be, and that they can be themselves around the other person, is the core of their relationship and romance from that point forward. It's still surrounded by each of them doing whatever they can to keep it going for their own selfish reasons, which allows them to gloss over what could have been difficulties in other situations - Adolin choosing his father over her when he could only save one of them, Adolin finding out that Shallan's been lying the whole time to everyone about who and what she is, Adolin constantly ogling other women's butts, and so on. They can see past those things to the reasons and intent behind them because they want so badly for non-romantic reasons for the relationship to work out, and that allows them to give each other a lot more benefit of the doubt than normal.

 

Their situations are compatible and their personalities are compatible. Both of them as not terribly patient and both are very passionate people. So, it makes sense for their relationship to move quickly. It probably would have even if they weren't romantically interested in each other because of what they are getting out of the marriage, but the fact that they actually do find that they are compatible makes it real instead of faked.

 

 

Oh, and I don't get anyone who thinks Shallan and Kaladin are in the slightest bit compatible, especially after the chasm scene. Kaladin thinks he's interested in Shallan, but he's not. The reason he has strong feelings for her suddenly isn't because of anything romantic no matter what he thinks. It's because she related her life story to him in a way that he completely understood and empathized with. Emotionally, he went through similar hell, even though the details were totally different. And, she was her family's Tien. He's been looking for someone to replace Tien, someone that can make him smile no matter what, someone who can smile no matter what, someone who just lightens the world by existing. That's what Kaladin sees in Shallan - he sees his brother. All of his emotions for his brother, pent up after his brother's death, are being mapped onto Shallan. It is love he's feeling, but it's familial love, not romantic. He just doesn't know the difference and is pretty confused by it. He's pretty young, after all, and has only had one real girlfriend in his life (Tara). I'm hoping he realizes this soon into Book 3, but we'll see.

 

I feel that, after the chasm scene, Shallan sees Kaladin as someone who genuinely cares about protecting others, but who has too much darkness around him. If anything, he's her Helaran (ironic given that Kal killed him...), her big brother who protected her and helped her as much as he could, standing up for the family against their father. She feels safe in his arms, yes, but that doesn't mean romantic feelings at all. I have plenty of friends like that, personally, whom I love and trust but not in any romantic way at all.

 

They're also horribly incompatible. He's all super serious face all the time, and she can't stand super serious people for long lengths of time.

 

(I apologize for any name spelling errors - I listen to audio books mostly these days and am just guessing on some of them.)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Nyali

[Pathfinder]

So I am going to do my best to try and not to offend because I actually really dislike the type of romance Luciellav is referring to. So this is totally and completely just my own opinion, and any negative comments regarding the type of romance are purely pointed at the type of romance and have nothing to do with Luciellav as a person or her own preferences. Hopefully that covers it. So I have always felt that kind of romance comes off derivative, artificial, lazy writing, and takes away from the plot of the story. Real life (in my opinion) doesn't work that way. There is not some great catastrophe, or occurrence that throws two people together and then their eyes lock and they long for each other. It takes away from actual relationship development. Things like spending time together organically and talking genuinely are what build real relationships. Even with the Steris and Wax situation where she gets all excited over his roguish hero mystique, there are still times where they are together getting to know who they each other outside of drama. The train car scene is the prime example. Wax learns to see Steris not as an awkward, dry, OCD laden, judgmental, and boring woman, but as an intriguing, clever, passionate, and strong woman. That is what begins the attraction for her. Marasi and Wax conversely realize that any attraction was purely at face value. Marasi saw Wax as a heroic idol, that got shattered when she met and got to know him. Wax saw Marasi as a young naive girl that happens to hold the same interests that he needs to protect and never fully accepts that she is capable and strong on her own. Steris is not a damsel in distress, she is a capable member of the team. Marasi is also a capable member of the team, but when working on her own/in her own way. It takes far more to build that level of interaction, than to throw two characters into a dangerous situation, and suddenly they realize they are meant for each other. I think there is even a clinical term for those kind of relationships though I blank on it now. I might get some flame for this, but a huge example of lazy relationship writing in my opinion is Jim Butcher. 

 

In the Aeronauts Windlass, two characters meet because everything is going to crem. They eye each other from a distance but do not do anything till each of their lives are in danger to which the other then runs off valiantly to save the other. Then they realize their feelings of love are plain for all to see and then they embrace and kiss. This is not love, this is adrenaline laden euphoria. There is a reason for the term adrenaline junkie. So I ask, what happens to the after? When the danger is gone? When they still know nothing about each other and now need to find a common ground other than nearly dying?

 

Sorry I ended up going on a rant. To sum up, I like Brandon's style of romance because it doesn't take center, or even second stage. The world ending should be a priority. Whether you like a girl or boy or not, life still moves on. Events in the world still occur regardless of a relationship status, and I feel books should reflect that. I am sorry if I come off critical or derisive. Just the kind of romance I see in books regularly irks me, and I tend to skip over the scenes because they seldom if at all add anything to the actual story. 

 

edit: LOL now i feel better to know someone feels the same way I do Nyali to the point that we wrote very similar arguments at the exact same time. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Nyali]

edit: LOL now i feel better to know someone feels the same way I do Nyali to the point that we wrote very similar arguments at the exact same time. 

 

<3

 

Clearly, we must now romance.

[Pathfinder]

<3

 

Clearly, we must now romance.

LOL, yes it must be! Your husband and my wife will understand that our meeting was foretold in the stars as our gazes met across the written word of this forum. So.........ummmmm.......now what to talk about.......how about them yankees? lolol 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Nyali]

LOL, yes it must be! Your husband and my wife will understand that our meeting was foretold in the stars as our gazes met across the written word of this forum. So.........ummmmm.......now what to talk about.......how about them yankees? lolol 

 

No. Clearly, we must discuss defecation. It's traditional around here.

 

<.<

 

(And I have a wife, not husband - same sex marriage ftw!)

[Pathfinder]

No. Clearly, we must discuss defecation. It's traditional around here.

 

<.<

 

(And I have a wife, not husband - same sex marriage ftw!)

Ah but of course, it would only be proper. 

 

(Yeah, sorry about that. Right after I posted I realized that was a big unfair assumption on my part    )

Edited May 26, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Nyali]

Ah but of course, it would only be proper. 

 

(Yeah sorry about that, right after I posted I realized that was a big assumption on my part that wasn't fair   )

 

Getting off topic, so:

It's fine! We live in a heteronormative society and are currently discussing heterosexual relationships in fictional heteronormative societies. Plenty of LGBT people are bothered by heteronormativity, and it does honestly bug me sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that our society is heteronormative and the majority of relationships are heterosexual. But I do appreciate the apology!

 

I actually often try to leave my wife's gender ambiguous around people who don't know us online, because if I say I have a wife, often people assume that I'm male, which is an assumption that bugs me far more than the one you made. I can't wait until people start assuming to my daughter that she has a father (both of her biological parents are female and were when she was born)...

[Erunion]

Nyali and Pathfinder said most of it: Sanderson's relationships aren't typical Hollywood relationships - they're more 'grown up', less teenage. It's a pretty cool thing, actually. 

 

I have one more thing to add: you complained about the lack of screen time for most of them, but appreciated the Vin/Elend relationship (which had a lot of screen time). 

That's intentional. In most of Sanderson's books, the characters romantic relationships are secondary to their other character growth and the story as a whole. The main exception is Mistborn, where the protagonists character growth is exemplified in her relationship with Elend, and so that relationship is a main focus of the story (each book has an emotional overarching theme that's exemplified in their relationship; the first book is about trust, I forget the second one orz, but the third one is about faith). 

[Luciellav]

hey, there is another book between those two, shadows of self, that you are not mentioning. Did you by chance skipped it? because that would explain stuff. in SoS, wax and steris form what can be probably considered a solid friendship with mutual respect going both ways. I still think he and marasi would have made a better couple, though now that i think about it, what did they have in common besides fighting bad guys? Still, i can understand how wax would want to avoid that, especially since he still wasn't over lessie at the time.

 

Overall, I like sanderson romances. they quite fit with the way I live my feelings. The only complaint I have is that he is overusing the "perfectly arranged marriage" trope; elantris, warbreaker, WoR and BoM, four times out of four, it's growing predictable.

 

Oh, no no I did read it. I just forgot to mention it. Sorry about that. Steris to me has always been "that annoying character".

I guess im more into Marasi character because her personality is more similar to mine and to Lessie's. 

 

I find Brandon's romances are generally more "adult." Being married, I know what the best traits are in a spouse, and they are not the same things you look for when you're young and new to dating. A lot of his romances focus around the two things that true romance is based on - complimenting personalities and compatible lifestyles. I loved that AoL was set up as one of those stories where the main character gets engaged to someone he's not really interested in, then runs off on adventures with another woman who is obsessed with him, and everything is there to expect him to leave his fiancee for the other woman. But, he doesn't. And, if you were paying attention, that is totally the right decision, for everyone involved. Marasi is obsessed with him, not in love with him, and he doesn't feel anything toward her. She's set up to be reminiscent of Lissy, but she's a totally different person and any interest he'd have in her would just be him trying to get back something he lost, which doesn't work.

 

For Stormlight, I feel that there's a lot of complexity going on there that you're glossing over. Shallan had heard of Adolin a long time ago since practically every young woman on Roshar knew about him because he's a beautiful prince of one of the strongest kingdoms in the world. When the casual was arranged, she was excited because of what she had heard of him, but she was also desperate for it to work out because it was the only way she could see to save her brothers whom she loved more than anything. That last point is the most important, because she would do anything to save her brothers, even murder and steal. She wanted so hard to be the perfect woman for Adolin so he had no reason to break off the casual, especially after Jasnah dies and there's no longer any reason for the Kholins to honor the arrangement.

 

Adolin, on the other hand, is sick of women breaking up with him. He's just so clueless about romance that he doesn't understand why they keep leaving, even though he mostly ignores them and then absently flirts with everyone he meets without even realizing it, even with his current girlfriend right there. So, he also wants the casual to work out, because that way, she's far less likely to leave, and he doesn't really seem to care much who he winds up marrying since he's interested in just about every woman he meets (or at least, he thinks he is).

 

So the two of them go into that first dinner both trying so very hard to pretend to be the perfect lady and perfect prince, doing and saying all the things they think are expected of them. And that lasts a few minutes before Shallan breaks down and the poop conversation ensues. That whole conversation, the realization that neither of them is who they were pretending to be, and that they can be themselves around the other person, is the core of their relationship and romance from that point forward. It's still surrounded by each of them doing whatever they can to keep it going for their own selfish reasons, which allows them to gloss over what could have been difficulties in other situations - Adolin choosing his father over her when he could only save one of them, Adolin finding out that Shallan's been lying the whole time to everyone about who and what she is, Adolin constantly ogling other women's butts, and so on. They can see past those things to the reasons and intent behind them because they want so badly for non-romantic reasons for the relationship to work out, and that allows them to give each other a lot more benefit of the doubt than normal.

 

Their situations are compatible and their personalities are compatible. Both of them as not terribly patient and both are very passionate people. So, it makes sense for their relationship to move quickly. It probably would have even if they weren't romantically interested in each other because of what they are getting out of the marriage, but the fact that they actually do find that they are compatible makes it real instead of faked.

 

 

Oh, and I don't get anyone who thinks Shallan and Kaladin are in the slightest bit compatible, especially after the chasm scene. Kaladin thinks he's interested in Shallan, but he's not. The reason he has strong feelings for her suddenly isn't because of anything romantic no matter what he thinks. It's because she related her life story to him in a way that he completely understood and empathized with. Emotionally, he went through similar hell, even though the details were totally different. And, she was her family's Tien. He's been looking for someone to replace Tien, someone that can make him smile no matter what, someone who can smile no matter what, someone who just lightens the world by existing. That's what Kaladin sees in Shallan - he sees his brother. All of his emotions for his brother, pent up after his brother's death, are being mapped onto Shallan. It is love he's feeling, but it's familial love, not romantic. He just doesn't know the difference and is pretty confused by it. He's pretty young, after all, and has only had one real girlfriend in his life (Tara). I'm hoping he realizes this soon into Book 3, but we'll see.

 

I feel that, after the chasm scene, Shallan sees Kaladin as someone who genuinely cares about protecting others, but who has too much darkness around him. If anything, he's her Helaran (ironic given that Kal killed him...), her big brother who protected her and helped her as much as he could, standing up for the family against their father. She feels safe in his arms, yes, but that doesn't mean romantic feelings at all. I have plenty of friends like that, personally, whom I love and trust but not in any romantic way at all.

 

They're also horribly incompatible. He's all super serious face all the time, and she can't stand super serious people for long lengths of time.

 

(I apologize for any name spelling errors - I listen to audio books mostly these days and am just guessing on some of them.)

 

Eh, I guess Im not getting my point across really well. 

I don't expect something the teenage romance books out there have, where love is the main part and angst angst angst. I don't really like it either.

What Im saying is I felt every relationship is laking of page time. I wanted to understand better the hows and twitches of these relationships. Even when I despised them (the Wax and Steris one for example), to me it feels its not enough, compared to the endless descriptions of the surroundings, that it does world construction but not as relevant.

I get the backstory of Adolin and Shallan and but still the poop comment gets to me as... inmature, even if she was going for shock. I don't know, they are barely adults anyway.   

 

As for Shallan and Kaladin, I really disagree with you in the love type. But if it is with the arranged marriage trope Sanderson has followed I won't look into the deeper implications of the relationship. Even if i wished there was more "page time".

 

And im just going to roll my eyes at you and Pathfinder on your following patronizing conversation. 

[Nyali]

We're not being patronizing... We're joking with each other, sure, but I think you're totally misreading our tone.

 

I think it's fine to have different opinions, and I think we're not going to see eye to eye on this (and that's also fine). I personally feel like the relationships do have enough page time, and gave my reasoning. You disagree, and gave your reasoning. There's nothing patronizing going on here...

Edited May 26, 2016 by Nyali

[king of nowhere]

Eh, I guess Im not getting my point across really well.

I don't expect something the teenage romance books out there have, where love is the main part and angst angst angst. I don't really like it either.

What Im saying is I felt every relationship is laking of page time. I wanted to understand better the hows and twitches of these relationships. Even when I despised them (the Wax and Steris one for example), to me it feels its not enough, compared to the endless descriptions of the surroundings, that it does world construction but not as relevant.

Well, I can see the point, but if brandon started to dedicate more pages to the relationships, some other people would lament "hey, there's too much romance in here. if i wanted to read that, I wouldn't buy fantasy". So, basically it comes to the impossibility of pleasing anyone. personally, i think brandon spends the right amount of times on them. some would like more, some others would like less. I would like more explanations and more worldbuilding (yeah, I know, I'm a fanatic for those stuff), other people are fine with them, others would want less.

By the way, my first instinct would have been to also compare favorably brandon's relations with stereotyped hollywood ones, but I quickly realized it would have been a mistake. First thing, "most people do much worse" is not the best reason to appreciate something, and second, there was no clear proof that it was what you would prefer. though favoring the kaladin/shallan and wax/marasi pairings do sort of point towards that, since they would be the couples that bad teenage romance novels would favor.

Edited May 26, 2016 by king of nowhere

[Pathfinder]

Bolded for emphasis. I am responding to each point again as you stated you were being misunderstood, so I wanted to ensure I was giving each point its due attention. 

Words of Radiance

Since it's the book I have just finished and is very fresh in my head. I found that Shallan x Adolin and the maaaaaybe Shallan x Kaladin, lacked pages.

We read pages upon pages of place descriptions, politics and religion. But the flirting between Shallan and Adolin...was soo short that I could not believe -when- those two actually fell for each other.  I mean, first (or second) date between those two and Shallan asks how Adolin poops. I don't know in Roshar, but here if a guy asked me that in the second date, I would not find him enchanting or irresistible. I would think he is a redneck or lacked basic social skills. Hell, I have dated guys for years and the topic never came out.

Anyway, they also rarely talk about the feelings for each other. Seems like their relationship is...like a shadow that sometimes they deal with. I know that the book is not about romance...but heeey something more than a rushed action movie of 90min romance, would be great.  

 

Also there are scenes I was hoping to read, like I loved all the chapters when Kaladin and Shallan are trapped in the abyss. I was hopping to read their thoughts on their developing attraction after waking up cuddling each other just after surviving a highstorm. I wanted to read the full way back, not told from another point of view that "and they arrived safe and sound -more and less-". That half day was lost.

Damnation, after those two meaningful days, there are like 2 pages given on the thought of each other and then nothing. Not even a shock conversation when Shallan finds out Kaladin is a Radiant as well. They don't even talk to each other at the end of the book!

 

Warbreaker

Siri x Susebron. We read so little of their relationship, that to me one day she had a friend and boom then next they got incredibly in love and had sexy time. I wanted to understand that relationship better, with all the implications it had. Instead we go in circles in other plot points that to me had no real relevance to the end story, like Vivenna's tug recruitment quest.

 

Mistborn era 2

Wax x Steris. Steris doesn't really figure in AoL, but she is very present in BoM. There is a period of time between those two books that their relationship starts to bloom, despite Wax's pain. So I would have liked to know more why Wax became enamoured of her, to me he had a better relationship with Marasi. And had more thoughts about her than thoughts about Steris. His love to Steris came sort of weird to me. Not really well stablished. 

 

 

In contrast Vin and Elend have a more stable relationship development, or so I think. 

 

What are your thoughts guys?

Words of Radiance

Regarding Adolin and Shallan's flirting about poop:

 

Words of Radiance page 570

He paused again. She was probably supposed to ask what happened next. "What if you need to poop?" she asked instead. "Well, I put my back to the chasm and laid about me with my sword, intending to....Wait. What did you say?" "Poop" Shallan said "You're out there on the battlefield, encased in metal like a crab in its shell. What do you do if nature calls?" "I....er...." Adolin frowned at her. "That is not something any woman has ever asked me before" "Yay for originality!" Shallan said, though she blushed as she said it.

 

further down

"I'm not doing anything to you" she said "I'm just curious." And honestly, she was. She'd thought about this. Perhaps more than it deserved consideration

 

That's Shallan being genuine. Adolin doesn't pay attention to women for long, because they don't truly pay attention to him. It is a play that is acted out because it is expected of him. Shallan did not bring up poop out of shock value, but because she genuinely wanted to know. That scene threw out the whole "when on a date, don't be yourself because you might scare the person off" out the window. Shallan said "hey this is me, you want to keep talking?" and Adolin replied "wow really? cool! Let's do this again!" When you find something that feels right, when you find someone that you feel really groks who you are and what you are about, things speed up. I went from thinking I need to be boyfriend and girlfriend with someone for about three years before contemplating moving in together, and five years before proposing. After meeting my wife, we dated for a year before we started discussing moving in together. Finding and buying the coop took about a year, and after moving in together and being there for me amazingly when I lost my mother to cancer, I proposed. Year later we got married. Every step of the way felt right. When people first heard we were moving in together, some thought we were moving fast. Meanwhile I couldn't be happier. To you it struck you as crude, to Adolin it was endearing. Also consider given that is the form their flirting took place, and you felt it was crude, would you really want to read more? 

 

 

Word of Radiance page 879

For now, he wanted to think - though he was still glad for her presence. And aware of it in more ways than one, pushed against him and wearing the wet, increasingly tattered dress. His conversation with the Stormfather, however, drew his attention away from that sort of thought. Syl. Had he really....killed her? he had heard her weeping earlier, hadn't he?

 

So when they wake up, he notices her physical proximity. But he had just found out he killed her brother, and killed Syl. I don't know about you, but as it states in the book, my mind would not jump back to the curves of the woman next to me and continuing our friendly banter. They both have a lot on their mind. Shallan just confessed to killing her father. A fact that she has been avoiding since she actually did the deed. That would weigh heavily on a person's mind. So given the content of the scene, the travel back was more than likely in companionable silence. 

 

Warbreaker

As already pointed out, the main content over the course of weeks/months was each night Siri stripping down, jumping up and down on the bed moaning, and then once the spying individuals leave, reading together. The purpose of that was to demonstrate Susebron's naivety, and show the simplicity of two people connecting on a personal and intimate level without needing all the pomp and circumstance of a date or sexual tension. They were comfortable together. Siri felt safe with Susebron and Susebron felt safe with Siri. Personally I see a scene painted in a dark room, by light from a fireplace, reading a book together, smiling and learning together to be very romantic. 

 

Mistborn era 2

As I stated it was Wax and Steris truly discovering what makes them who they are. She may have grated on you, but Wax saw something in her that resonated with him. He saw past the cover. I think it speaks volumes about their relationship that Wax can start abhorring a task Steris enjoys, and learn to appreciate it and in fact enjoy it with her. 

 

I'm not entirely certain she doesn't at least feel a very strong attraction towards Adolin. Which leads me to ask why Adolin takes the back seat and never starts any physical advances towards Shallan?

I do not see why Adolin needs to start a physical advance in order for her to know he is attracted to her and visa versa. What does it truly add to the story, or even their narrative in their relationship? Adolin never reached that point in courting with a woman before. It is all new to him. He is nervous. It shows a vulnerability and sense of humanity to the stereotypical "pretty rich boy". Everyone sees him as a womanizer and spoiled brat, but the reality couldn't be furthest from the truth. Shallan realizes that, which is why she makes the first move on him. All these relationships referenced work differently than normal because those relationships are used to help develop the character. Kaladin is not going to act the way Adolin acts who is not going to act the way Wax acts who is not going to act the way Shallan acts who is not going to act the way Steris reacts in a relationship. They are all unique individuals. I didn't respond to the rest of that post as those points I covered earlier in this post. 

 

Oh, no no I did read it. I just forgot to mention it. Sorry about that. Steris to me has always been "that annoying character".

I guess im more into Marasi character because her personality is more similar to mine and to Lessie's. 

 

 

Eh, I guess Im not getting my point across really well. 

I don't expect something the teenage romance books out there have, where love is the main part and angst angst angst. I don't really like it either.

What Im saying is I felt every relationship is laking of page time. I wanted to understand better the hows and twitches of these relationships. Even when I despised them (the Wax and Steris one for example), to me it feels its not enough, compared to the endless descriptions of the surroundings, that it does world construction but not as relevant.

 

And im just going to roll my eyes at you and Pathfinder on your following patronizing conversation. 

So you identified with the character and felt she should get with the main character. Not everyone identifies with Marasi. Quite a few people identify with Steris, and for them it is nice to see that relationship play out because it may be harder for them to connect with another person on a deeper emotional level due to all the factors she is dealing with. I am very regimented and scheduled with my life, yet my wife light heartily teases me and understands. We understand each other, which is why we love each other. Wax understands Steris. He doesn't understand Marasi. 

 

So you did not like the crude comment about poop from Shallan to Adolin. Nyali and I were making fun of the poop comment, but that comes off as patronizing to you? I apologize if so, but it was not meant as such, and pretty much everything Nyali said. As well as I corrected the downvote too Nyali. I think I covered everything. Whew, took awhile to type all of that. I will close this post with the point that you did ask and I quote:

 

What are your thoughts guys?

 

We told you our thoughts, and did it as respectfully as we could while disagreeing with you. You did ask. 

[Nyali]

Regarding Warbreaker, a lot of the romantic progression is implied rather than shown, because there's only so much screentime, and it isn't a romance novel. We get to see glimpses of how their relationship progresses at various stages, but there's a lot more going on in the novel that needs to be covered. I feel that the scenes we do get to see do show how and why they are falling in love with each other, while you have to keep in mind that they're spending every single night together, mostly just talking once things get going. We don't see all of that, but knowing that happens behind the scenes lends context to the scenes we do get to see.

 

Also, one of the biggest scenes that shows them falling in love with each other is the one where they order a ton of food. That scene was modeled after one of Brandon's strongest memories from his honeymoon, if I'm remembering right, where he and his wife ordered room service and had a similar experience, though the context was of course different. That scene, to Brandon, is romantic, real, and indicative of the sorts of things and behaviors that he considers romantic.

 

If you disagree, that's fine, but to me that illustrates that you and the author have different views of romance, and if you don't agree with the author's views of romance, you aren't likely to enjoy the romantic scenes he writes. And that's fine! But keep in mind that there are people out there like us who do agree.

 

 

====================

 

 

As an anecdotal sidenote, the first time I visited my future wife's house, before we started dating, her brother happened to fart quite loudly. My future wife and I then spent a while talking about farts. That was one of our first real conversations.

 

So, Shallan's first real conversation with Adolin was particularly amusing and touching to us, even if much of it was about poop. To me, the fact that they could discuss a normally taboo subject is romantic (while also being utterly hilarious). That they can be so comfortable with each other says a lot to me about where their relationship is heading.

[Quiver]

I...have thoughts on Brandons romances that I'm still trying to get into cogent thought.

Short view, romances are the weakest parts of his books, particularly when (like with Zane or the Shalladin situation) they are pushed to the forefront of a book.

By contrast his background romances, like Siri and Susebron or Wax and Steris, I find quite...likeable, at least.

[Luciellav]

though favoring the kaladin/shallan and wax/marasi pairings do sort of point towards that, since they would be the couples that bad teenage romance novels would favor.

 

I just think those pairings are fun to read about and more interesting than the, you could say "canon" ones, that as other pointed out the same trope romance Brandon uses (And thanx to this thread I realised).  And again, I don't like angst bad novels such as twilight, nor is what I'm looking for. 

 

 

 

Words of Radiance page 570

He paused again. She was probably supposed to ask what happened next. "What if you need to poop?" she asked instead. "Well, I put my back to the chasm and laid about me with my sword, intending to....Wait. What did you say?" "Poop" Shallan said "You're out there on the battlefield, encased in metal like a crab in its shell. What do you do if nature calls?" "I....er...." Adolin frowned at her. "That is not something any woman has ever asked me before" "Yay for originality!" Shallan said, though she blushed as she said it.

 

 

There is no need to quote the scene, I finished reading the book from start to finish last week, I remember it clearly.

And the poop is the only thing I disliked of the whole flirting. To show your characters are genuine there is no need to talk about poop like a kindergarden. I understand you indetify with that at some level. So don't take it personaly, you like it; I disliked it, as simple as that.  

 

As for the rest of the flirting, there were some scenes that happened in the back that I would have liked to read, more than how some Radiants started to show up and get killed (or almost killed). I also specially got annoyed at some chapters pace, I was turning eagerly through some scenes to have a small cliffhanger and changed to another point of view that I found boring in comparison with the chapter I was just reading. I just happened a few times, but in general the pacing was fine.

 

Word of Radiance page 879

For now, he wanted to think - though he was still glad for her presence. And aware of it in more ways than one, pushed against him and wearing the wet, increasingly tattered dress. His conversation with the Stormfather, however, drew his attention away from that sort of thought. Syl. Had he really....killed her? he had heard her weeping earlier, hadn't he?

 

So when they wake up, he notices her physical proximity. But he had just found out he killed her brother, and killed Syl. I don't know about you, but as it states in the book, my mind would not jump back to the curves of the woman next to me and continuing our friendly banter. They both have a lot on their mind. Shallan just confessed to killing her father. A fact that she has been avoiding since she actually did the deed. That would weigh heavily on a person's mind. So given the content of the scene, the travel back was more than likely in companionable silence. 

 

Im no book writter, I just wanted to read what happened after. Instead there is just blank space. I disagree they would just walk back silently for hours, taking that Shallan is always talking about something or other and being funny. 

 

 

I do not see why Adolin needs to start a physical advance in order for her to know he is attracted to her and visa versa. What does it truly add to the story, or even their narrative in their relationship? Adolin never reached that point in courting with a woman before. It is all new to him. He is nervous. It shows a vulnerability and sense of humanity to the stereotypical "pretty rich boy". Everyone sees him as a womanizer and spoiled brat, but the reality couldn't be furthest from the truth. Shallan realizes that, which is why she makes the first move on him. All these relationships referenced work differently than normal because those relationships are used to help develop the character. Kaladin is not going to act the way Adolin acts who is not going to act the way Wax acts who is not going to act the way Shallan acts who is not going to act the way Steris reacts in a relationship. They are all unique individuals. I didn't respond to the rest of that post as those points I covered earlier in this post. 

 

 

Adolin doesn't seem to me like a rich boy virgin. It strikes me as weird that the most he does is give a hug after some sort of catastrophe. Not even a kiss started by him or holding hands, whatever. For having the personality he has, he is a bit tad passive in that regard with Shallan. Afraid of ruining it if he does something? Maybe. But is still weird behaviour for him.

 

 

 

So you did not like the crude comment about poop from Shallan to Adolin. Nyali and I were making fun of the poop comment, but that comes off as patronizing to you? I apologize if so, but it was not meant as such, and pretty much everything Nyali said. As well as I corrected the downvote too Nyali. I think I covered everything. Whew, took awhile to type all of that. I will close this post with the point that you did ask and I quote:

 

What are your thoughts guys?

 

We told you our thoughts, and did it as respectfully as we could while disagreeing with you. You did ask. 

 

So I guess I should not have asked, aye?

[Luciellav]

As an anecdotal sidenote, the first time I visited my future wife's house, before we started dating, her brother happened to fart quite loudly. My future wife and I then spent a while talking about farts. That was one of our first real conversations.

 

So, Shallan's first real conversation with Adolin was particularly amusing and touching to us, even if much of it was about poop. To me, the fact that they could discuss a normally taboo subject is romantic (while also being utterly hilarious). That they can be so comfortable with each other says a lot to me about where their relationship is heading.

 

 

I might pass as snob to you. But I do dislike out of nowhere poop comments. It maybe has to do something with my boss inserting those poop comments in unrealated work conversations. And I'm just sick of it.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Luciellav

[Nyali]

I might pass as snob to you. But I do dislike out of nowhere poop comments. It maybe has to do something with my boss inserting those poop comments in unrealated work conversations. And I'm just sick of it.

 

I... really don't know what you do for a living, but that seems extremely odd for a boss to do in a professional setting. I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm saying your boss sounds weird o.O

 

I, on the other hand, have a seven month old infant. Baby Shallan's poop is often a topic of conversation around the house, given how much it dominates our lives.

[Pathfinder]

I just think those pairings are fun to read about and more interesting than the, you could say "canon" ones, that as other pointed out the same trope romance Brandon uses (And thanx to this thread I realised).  And again, I don't like angst bad novels such as twilight, nor is what I'm looking for. 

 

 

 

There is no need to quote the scene, I finished reading the book from start to finish last week, I remember it clearly.

And the poop is the only thing I disliked of the whole flirting. To show your characters are genuine there is no need to talk about poop like a kindergarden. I understand you indetify with that at some level. So don't take it personaly, you like it; I disliked it, as simple as that.  

 

As for the rest of the flirting, there were some scenes that happened in the back that I would have liked to read, more than how some Radiants started to show up and get killed (or almost killed). I also specially got annoyed at some chapters pace, I was turning eagerly through some scenes to have a small cliffhanger and changed to another point of view that I found boring in comparison with the chapter I was just reading. I just happened a few times, but in general the pacing was fine.

 

 

Im no book writter, I just wanted to read what happened after. Instead there is just blank space. I disagree they would just walk back silently for hours, taking that Shallan is always talking about something or other and being funny. 

 

 

 

Adolin doesn't seem to me like a rich boy virgin. It strikes me as weird that the most he does is give a hug after some sort of catastrophe. Not even a kiss started by him or holding hands, whatever. For having the personality he has, he is a bit tad passive in that regard with Shallan. Afraid of ruining it if he does something? Maybe. But is still weird behaviour for him.

 

 

 

So I guess I should not have asked, aye?

I quoted the Shallan scene because you stated she did it for shock value. When the quote is referenced, it is clear she did not. I sought to explain why from a narrative perspective the "poop" scene was used. You disagree and I respect that. 

 

In that it seems we must disagree. Shallan used the jokes and comments to distract Kaladin from being so morose and dwelling on the imminent death of the highstorm. Once the highstorm passed, and they were (for the most part) safe, it was no longer necessary. I quoted the scene to illustrate why I feel it was not appropriate for them to continue their light hearted banter given the darkening of moods on both their parts. Again you disagree, and I respect that. 

 

It is continually commented on how Adolin goes from girl to girl to girl. That every date is chaperoned and that he courts them as per his society. Dalinar and Navani do not scold him fearing he will produce a bastard out of wedlock. Despite his reputation, fathers continue to approve dates for their daughters with Adolin. His real personality demonstrates that this makes sense for him. But again, you disagree and I respect that. That is my own interpretation of the events. 

 

That is incorrect. You should ask, but also be open to differing opinions that could expand and bring a greater understanding of the novels by hearing other people's views. Now personally I find that comment you made patronizing. 

[Luciellav]

I... really don't know what you do for a living, but that seems extremely odd for a boss to do in a professional setting. I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm saying your boss sounds weird o.O

 

I, on the other hand, have a seven month old infant. Baby Shallan's poop is often a topic of conversation around the house, given how much it dominates our lives.

 

I'm an Ui/UX Designer and front end developer. We would be talking about how to improve the sales of the platform and THEN he says "just like taking a good dump". Or on unrelated conversations while eating all the team together.....uggggg!

Edited May 26, 2016 by Luciellav