VirtuousTraveller Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 "There was a reason he had managed to survive a decade on the streets of Kae without being caught." Elantris page 562. Something interesting hit me on my recent reading of Elantris. Why is Hoid mentioned here at all? Prior to the 10th Anniversary edition, we had no real understanding of why he was meddling on Sel, save that he was apparently known as a street beggar for at least 10 years. What else happened 10 years prior to the events of this book? The Shaod. The Reod. AonDor stops working the way it should. The chasm appeared in Arelon. Word of Brandon (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=988#28) AARONSo the Reod is a natural reaction to an unnatural occurrence. BRANDON SANDERSONYes. JOSHAnd wasn’t it because there was like magical strain on the land? BRANDON SANDERSONThat is certainly part of what was going on. We know that this earthquake that caused the chasm line was the result of some kind of "unnatural occurance," meaning that something "meddled" with something (we don't know what) in Arelon. Also: Word of BRandon (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=618#58) BRANDON SANDERSONThe Seons existed before the earthquake. MI'CHELLEBut was the earthquake caused by Odium? BRANDON SANDERSONWhen Odium visited there were no Seons. The chasm, which occurred only 10 years prior, along with the Shaod/Reod, was not the result of Odium's visit to Sel, which would have taken place hundreds of years prior to the events of the book. Hoid seems to have been hanging out on the streets of Kae for 10 years. Things with Elantris went downhill 10 years ago. An oddly specific coincidence, no? In the postscript of the 10th Anniversary edition of Elantris: we see that Hoid expected to become an Elantrian somehow, as if the events he witnessed at the rebirth of the city would somehow transform him as well, yet he was surprised to see it not work. My theory summarized: Hoid, in his attempt to become an Elantrian, caused the Shaod/Reod (whether on purpose or by accident, I do not know). Once his mess is resolved, or perhaps once he sees that his plan did not work out the way he thought it would, Hoid hops into the shardpool and moves onto another world. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhoof Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Yeah, it does seem an odd coincidence. But why actually stay for ten years? that seems like a long period of time being an actual beggar, unless of course he was trapped somehow. And if he was trapped, why not figure out how to fix it and then tell someone who could do it? And Hoid seems the type that could cause it on purpose, but only if he thought it necessary to whatever his grand plan is. He does say in the letter after all, that he would let worlds burn with tears in his eyes, but let them all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=768#5 Check WoB 5, 6 and 7, some interesting info for you (It isn't Hoid's first trip to Sel, or so it seems) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 I'm not so sure that Hoid's attempt at becoming an Elantrian is related. I recently asked Brandon if Hoid had tried to become and Elantrian the same way that Kel became connected to Preservation. He said it was. When Kelsier used the device that connected him there were no huge catastrophic enviromental disasters when he did so, so I don't believe this to be related Relevant WoB. Secret History spoilers. INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016 OdysseyCon 2016 BLIGHTSONG Was Hoid trying to become an Elantrian kind of in a way how Kelsier was able to connect to preservation to take up the shard? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, the thing about it is your getting Hoid before he knew as much as he did in Scadrial era, so what he was trying to do was completely ineffective and it couldn't have worked. BLIGHTSONG Doesn't it get weaker the farther away you are, so it wouldn't help at all. BRANDON SANDERSON mhmm. QUESTION Well we have an example of an Elantrian on Roshar, so. BRANDON SANDERSON Yes we have an Elantrian on Roshar, but we don't see him use any powers, and his skin is dark on Roshar rather than glowing. That is something to be aware of. While I keep doing this, who is here for the magic draft? *Talks about the magic draft and his writing process for a bit*. TAGS Hoid, Elantris, Scadrial, Roshar, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsam Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) I'm skeptical. I don't think Hoid causing a major cataclysm really fits with what we know about him; his modus operandi seems to be mostly observation with subtle meddling here and there, not large scale workings of power, like the Reod would have had to been. If he's really a character of such outright power, why does he bother with subtle manipulation most of the time? And saying he caused the Reod doesn't really answer the question of why he hangs around as a beggar for 10 years; if anything, it raises more. If he had a goal - cause the Reod - and he accomplished it, then why hang around? And if causing the Reod was his goal, why does he not oppose the attempts of Raoden to reverse it? Though it's likely not coincidence that Hoid's time in Elantris corresponds with the timeline of the Reod. Hoid's thing is using some sort of magic to know where something "interesting" is going to happen, then going there, so it's not surprising that he would show up in time for the Reod, and probably equally unsurprising that he would hang around while it lasted, as his mysterious "interesting-ness detecting magic" would have pointed him to the events of the book. Perhaps he simply didn't have anything more important to do for those 10 years than witness the Reod. It's not impossible that he was stuck, perhaps the Reod disrupted his ability to travel (Secret History Spoiler) similar to how Kelsier's destruction of the Pits of Hathsin inconvenienced Hoid's ability to travel, forcing him to travel through the Well. Perhaps the Reod was a more significant disruption that temporarily prevented all travel through the Cognitive Realm. but I don't think we even need that much explanation for why he'd stick around. Edited May 23, 2016 by Retsam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 It's not impossible that he was stuck, perhaps the Reod disrupted his ability to travel Exactly what I was thinking. Elantris comes very early in the chronology of the cosmere that we've seen so far, so my thoughts are that Hoid, perhaps by accident, did something that he perhaps thought was subtle, but had significant consequences (i.e. the Reod) that caused his ability to leave the planet to be complicated. From what we read in the book, it seems Hoid was a known beggar for a long period of time, not just someone who randomly appeared in Kae on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Exactly what I was thinking. Elantris comes very early in the chronology of the cosmere that we've seen so far, so my thoughts are that Hoid, perhaps by accident, did something that he perhaps thought was subtle, but had significant consequences (i.e. the Reod) that caused his ability to leave the planet to be complicated. From what we read in the book, it seems Hoid was a known beggar for a long period of time, not just someone who randomly appeared in Kae on occasion. We know that travel through Perpendicularities was not damaged, we have many examples of Zombie Elantrians being dropped into the pool and being transported through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) We know that travel through Perpendicularities was not damaged, we have many examples of Zombie Elantrians being dropped into the pool and being transported through it. Maybe "being rippen apart by the ravaging Dor" it's quite a hard way to leave Sel. Much more in Elantris after the Reod, because the Dor concentrated there have no release before the fix of city. Edited May 23, 2016 by Yata 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Yes, perhaps the Cognitive Realm, which seems so important to both AonDor AND to worldhopping/Shadesmar, was disrupted by the Reod more so than anything. Since Hoid uses this realm for travel so much, and because this story takes place early in the timeline of the Cosmere, perhaps he attempted something using the Cognitive Realm (to become an Elantrian? To unsplinter Devotion/Dominion? To experiment with the idea of using regional magics outside of their respected place?) that resulted in the chaos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Does the Hoid Epilogue take place after the events of Elantris? Because it's completely possible that the Reod had caused the Perpendicularity to become too violent for him to travel. Probably worth asking. My knee jerk thought was that the reason he stuck around for so long (if that is indeed what happened) is because he believed he needed to become thoroughly ingrained in the culture in order to become an Elantrian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 I'm still not seeing any connection between the shardpool and the Reod. The perpendicularity itself was obviously undamaged, I guess I could see AonDor becoming more violent because of a lack of an outlet, but Brandon has never alluded to the Reod being connected to this violence, he has always said that it was because Aona and Skai were shattered. I'm not even sure that Elantris being invested would even give that power an outlet, much less enough of one. I just feel like this theory is grasping at loose straws with the little information we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 I'm still not seeing any connection between the shardpool and the Reod. The perpendicularity itself was obviously undamaged, I guess I could see AonDor becoming more violent because of a lack of an outlet, but Brandon has never alluded to the Reod being connected to this violence, he has always said that it was because Aona and Skai were shattered. I'm not even sure that Elantris being invested would even give that power an outlet, much less enough of one. I just feel like this theory is grasping at loose straws with the little information we have. Probably Elantris's Cognitive Realm is extremely dangerous after the D&D's Murder but after the Read it become too much hard/dangerous also for someone like Hoid... Like you said the Dor was more compress there without his release valve (AonDor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Probably Elantris's Cognitive Realm is extremely dangerous after the D&D's Murder but after the Read it become too much hard/dangerous also for someone like Hoid... Like you said the Dor was more compress there without his release valve (AonDor) But how do we know it was too dangerous for Hoid? How do we know it wasn't too dangerous in the first place? Why wouldn't he just go to Dominion's shardpool? Even if that Shardpool was hard to get too he had ten years based on this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted May 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 My knee jerk thought was that the reason he stuck around for so long (if that is indeed what happened) is because he believed he needed to become thoroughly ingrained in the culture in order to become an Elantrian. Especially since it seems like he was involved in some patriotic work, transporting supplies secretly with his band of supposed countrymen. Maybe he thought is he could show how deeply he cared about the well-being of Arleon, once Elantris "worked" again he would be transformed. I don't think his assumption is correct though, that patriotism to Arleon determines who gets taken by the Shaod. We know so little about the history of aons (and Elantris itself really) that it makes it really hard to know beyond random chance why someone becomes an Elantrian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 (edited) I thought the order was that Odium shattered Devotion and Dominion. Seons and Skaze came about and the cognitive realm is a dangerous place because of the unguided Dor. Many many years pass. The chasm occurs which screws up the aons and the elantrians causing the reod. So It looks to me that the dangerousness of the cognitive realm is not connected to the Reod at all. In fact despite the chasm line being added to Elantris making the Elantrians good again, I do not believe changed anything about the dangerousness of the cognitive realm. So if that is the case, then Hoid could have come and gone whenever and however he wanted since it seems the cognitive realm was still screwed up, but he was able to use the well in the end scene. Edited May 26, 2016 by Pathfinder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 But how do we know it was too dangerous for Hoid? How do we know it wasn't too dangerous in the first place? Why wouldn't he just go to Dominion's shardpool? Even if that Shardpool was hard to get too he had ten years based on this theory. Because before the Reod Hoid came to Sel and after the fix of Elantris He left the planet. Maybe this can't prove that during the reod it was more hard, but in the end we know that Hoid may go from and to Sel in his "standard" states. After all Hoid has probably the best Healing method we know in the Cosmere and he took something really extreme to stop him. About why He didn't choose to search Dominion's Shardpool... I really don't know, the pool may be in some unreachable place, maybe He didn't know where to search... or maybe before the revelation of the Monks, the other Pool (probably in Dilaf's homeland) are dangerous as Elantris (without Magic Users that work like release valve). But these are all speculations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 I don't see how using a different pool would help. All magic on Sel is powered by the Dor, wouldn't it rage all across the planet in the cognitive realm, both Perpendicularities included? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Natc using another Perpendicularity "helps" during the Reod because probably Elantris's Shardpool was more dangerous than usual for the extra Dor concentrated in the city without any release Valve (AonDor Users and working Aon). The Blighsong's idea was about using the Dominion's Shardpool because is probably is "standard dangerous" for Selish's Standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Thinking this through a bit more, we don't even know if he was at Elantris for 10 years. He could have been there for a bit, left, came back, ect. We don't actually know if he was there for a consecutive 10 years. If he did manage to trap himself, we know he can bascily travel forward in time, he didn't have to wait out the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I think the state of the cognitive is more or less a nonissue, since a new WoB stated perpendicularities are direct "punctures" from the physical to spiritual realm, completely skipping the cognitive. The state of the spiritual seems a much bigger issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I think the state of the cognitive is more or less a nonissue, since a new WoB stated perpendicularities are direct "punctures" from the physical to spiritual realm, completely skipping the cognitive. The state of the spiritual seems a much bigger issue But we know that the cognitive realm is how people world hop. We also know that the Dor resides in the Cognitive realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Like Blightsong said we know for sure that a Perpendicularity at least connects Pysical and Cognitive Realms. The WoB probably suggests a Perpendicularity pierce all three realms... Also if I think worldhopp in the Spiritual is something beyond the abilities of many Cosmere Aware people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted May 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) What I find interesting is that the problem with the Elantrians was their transformation was stuck, that for some reason, the power of the Dor could not pierce through the barrier between the Cognitive Realm and the Physical Realm. When Raoden became a Hoed, it seemed that his consciousness remained stuck in a place where he either experienced extreme pain or, as the alternative that most Hoed seem to take, extreme numbness. Getting dropped in the shardpool didn't seem to transport Raoden immediately anywhere, but rather "something" offered him the comfort of what I would assume would be a swift passage into the Spiritual Realm, or the great beyond. I would assume this "something" was the voice of what might be a cognitive shadow of Aona/Skai (either/or, both/and), however because Raoden resisted (which we learned from MB SH is possible for individuals with more Investiture) he was able to come back into the Physical Realm (possibly because it wasn't possible to safely exist in the Cognitive Realm at that time). Maybe this Perpendicularity wasn't functioning properly as a passage to the Cognitive Realm prior to the reboot of Elantris, which is why Hoid couldn't use it until things were fixed up (and because he was hopeful his meddling would transform him into an Elantrian). Edited November 22, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller Differentiating the Spiritual Realm from the Great Beyond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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