What's up with the Sun?

[TheOneKEA]

Someone with access to the manuscript has edited the TV Tropes page for White Sand and included an entry for the "Well Done Son Guy" trope, and suggests that Kenton lost and gained his sand mastery because he was not acting autonomous. The trope entry suggests that Kenton's overwhelming desire to be a sand master to please his father was not an autonomous act, and thus didn't give him the same access to the magic; when his father died, he literally lost the reason he became a sand master, and thus lost the magic. The entry then claims that every time Kenton tries to wield the sands for their own sake, to act autonomously, he gains more power and access to sand mastery. If this person's theory is accurate this has HUGE implications for Kenton's adventures on Darkside.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, TheOneKEA said:

Someone with access to the manuscript has edited the TV Tropes page for White Sand and included an entry for the "Well Done Son Guy" trope, and suggests that Kenton lost and gained his sand mastery because he was not acting autonomous. The trope entry suggests that Kenton's overwhelming desire to be a sand master to please his father was not an autonomous act, and thus didn't give him the same access to the magic; when his father died, he literally lost the reason he became a sand master, and thus lost the magic. The entry then claims that every time Kenton tries to wield the sands for their own sake, to act autonomously, he gains more power and access to sand mastery. If this person's theory is accurate this has HUGE implications for Kenton's adventures on Darkside.

I strong disagree with that.

The Overmastery seems to be extremely unrelated to emotional condition of the Sand Master... Kenton itself overmastered twice in the novel, in the  battle's heart and in a calm boat travel, his mental status is very different in the two cases. We may use it to develop a pattern.

It's also stated that Overmastery (as a Sand Master's taboo) is a Mastrel's lie to mantain their quite divine status in the organization.

PS: This made me think, if the Mastrel didn't act as jerks for their own power's hungry... How powerful would be their organization ?

Edited July 5, 2016 by Yata

[Pathfinder]

Also add to this, that he regains it right when he enters the Hall of Justice with the goal of preserving the Sand Masters. By taking on responsibility and aiding the city. Helping others and preserving a group identity does not sound very autonomous to me. 

[yulerule]

What I find incredibly interesting, is that from what I saw that Overmastery was removed from the graphic novel as the reason Kenton regained his powers/became stronger. There is a completly different reason given for Kenton's increase. I'm hoping the future volumes will make it more clear, however. 

[Yata]

4 minutes ago, yulerule said:

What I find incredibly interesting, is that from what I saw that Overmastery was removed from the graphic novel as the reason Kenton regained his powers/became stronger. There is a completly different reason given for Kenton's increase. I'm hoping the future volumes will make it more clear, however. 

really O.O ? (I am still waiting to read the graphic novel)

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, yulerule said:

What I find incredibly interesting, is that from what I saw that Overmastery was removed from the graphic novel as the reason Kenton regained his powers/became stronger. There is a completly different reason given for Kenton's increase. I'm hoping the future volumes will make it more clear, however. 

Could you explain what you feel makes you arise to that conclusion? From what I read, they cut down the level of explanation, and trimmed it to speed it along, but I think that was just poor story telling on the part of the comic book artists. Not that the whole mechanic changed. Kenton overmastered during the attack. By the time he reached the hall of justice, he had it back. Same happened in the prose. 

[yulerule]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Could you explain what you feel makes you arise to that conclusion? From what I read, they cut down the level of explanation, and trimmed it to speed it along, but I think that was just poor story telling on the part of the comic book artists. Not that the whole mechanic changed. Kenton overmastered during the attack. By the time he reached the hall of justice, he had it back. Same happened in the prose. 

Chapter 6, page 1 in the graphic novel.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2016 by yulerule

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Chapter 6, page 1 in the graphic novel.

 

 

I need to re read the preceding chapter, but I vaguely recall it was Kenton referring to being able to confront Drile and have that same presence and strength of character to not give in. To take command. That the comment about nurturing sand mastery is that he has the additional strength but being used to only one ribbon for so long, he forgets, and does not have the skill to use his new additional abilities yet. However this is all from memory while you provided a clear example from the graphic novel which is pretty strong evidence, so I will need to check tonight and get back to you. Great catch!

[yulerule]

Well, it's from Kenton's point of view so he may be wrong and it is overmastery, but I don't think Brandon would change it without a reason. Also, keeping in mind that all these systems have rules behind how the magic works. The most similar parallel in this case would be Breaths, which are transferable from one person to another. However, Breaths ARE Investiture, and Sand Mastery is ability which is innate to a person. So the overmastery theory makes more sense (streching a muscle) rather than something indefinible being transferred. 

[Pathfinder]

22 hours ago, yulerule said:

Well, it's from Kenton's point of view so he may be wrong and it is overmastery, but I don't think Brandon would change it without a reason. Also, keeping in mind that all these systems have rules behind how the magic works. The most similar parallel in this case would be Breaths, which are transferable from one person to another. However, Breaths ARE Investiture, and Sand Mastery is ability which is innate to a person. So the overmastery theory makes more sense (streching a muscle) rather than something indefinible being transferred. 

So I had to go through again most of the prose version before I was able to locate it, but there is a spot where Kenton tries to reason out why he can now use more ribbons. I looked it up because I could have sworn one of his theories is he got it from his father, only for him to later disprove this theory and come to the conclusion it was sand mastery. I have recalled incorrectly. So either Brandon did change the strengthening mechanic for the graphic novel (which if he got it from his father, I feel kind of meh about it which I will go into further down the post), or it is an in world assumption that will be disproved in the later graphic novels. Either way as I said excellent catch. I missed that on my first read through of the graphic novel, and shows I need to read it again lol.

 

As to why I am not thrilled if the reason Kenton increases his power is due to it being bequeathed at death by Praxton is my own opinion and is thus:

It comes off as almost voluntary hemalurgy or as you said breaths. True it could be a closely guarded secret, like overmastery was in the prose, but then why do we not get a god king situation. Where each head mastrel gets a child, and sets it up that his child does very well and joins the Diem. Then as the head mastrel gets old and his time is near an end, he transfers his power to his child. Then each subsequent generation becomes stronger and stronger, and it sets up a dynasty for the Diem which is counter to what was shown. Also it removes Kenton's agency. It isn't because of his ingenuity, or hard work that he became stronger, but it is because his father gave him it. He spent his whole life defying his father, and showing how he can succeed on his own, autonomously from Praxton's help, only for his rise in power to rely on Praxton's last gift? It cheapens it. Now my mini rant is nothing against you. Based on what we see in the graphic novel, what you wrote makes sense.I just hope it isn't the case, because a graphic novel that already leaves a sour taste in my mouth will become all the more bitter

Edited July 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[yulerule]

Oh, no I agree with you that the Overmaster explanation is much better. Since Brandon changed it for a reason (presumably) I'm reserving judgment until the next volume. 

And I like your point that if the skill can be transferred from one person to another, the autonomous intent is gone. Breaths can be transferred easily because people endow each other with their Breaths. Ultimately overmastery has to be the correct/better explain s it aligns with the Intent much more.

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Oh, no I agree with you that the Overmaster explanation is much better. Since Brandon changed it for a reason (presumably) I'm reserving judgment until the next volume. 

And I like your point that if the skill can be transferred from one person to another, the autonomous intent is gone. Breaths can be transferred easily because people endow each other with their Breaths. Ultimately overmastery has to be the correct/better explain s it aligns with the Intent much more.

Yeah pretty much all we can do is RAFO and hope there is something more to it. Normally I would be right on board with you regarding how Brandon always has a reason for everything, but with Dynamite's handling of this graphic novel, I am not sure even if there is a reason, whether or not it will even be explained well. 

[Windrunner Savant]

I'm a little late to the party, but replacing the overmastery mechanic creates even more problems for the end of the book. By the end, Kenton has successfully started to tear down decades with of selfishness and pride in the Diem.

The Diem is now there to serve the people of Lossand and you are now allowed to progress further up the ranks as you prove yourself worthy, which is in large part due to the fact that the mastrell's great secret of strength through overmastery is now public knowledge. 

By taking away the secret that you can gain more power by overmastering, in essence, takes away perhaps the best example of the mastrell's selfishness and pride; as they were willing to withhold such powerful information that would allow the "weak" to become mastrells.

[Releaser12]

Autonomy invests the sunlight, but is not the sunlight. On an unrelated note, I'm disappointed in how powerful Kenton is. In the beginning, his sand was a tool, like his sword. As the book went on more and more, he got stronger and used it with increasing frequency. Sure there's all that stuff about him only controlling 6 ribbons and at first only one, but like he realizes in his fight with Drile, he is stronger than any of the other sand masters and skill can replace power. From a weak tool applied subtly like Breeze's Soothing, his Sand turned into something more like coinshots and thugs. I was really looking forward to a weak character who applies his powers in clever ways. Not a character who merely becomes strong enough to go sand v. sand and win. Sure he only used one ribbon, but Speed is just another form of power, which he has more of than anyone else.

[Weltall]

Well, as magic systems go Sand Mastery is somewhat one-trackt-minded and the circumstances of his fight with Drile didn't really leave many options for cleverness. He's in an open pit and no way to do clever things with the environment because there isn't one. Or rather there is but it's Invested sand and the other guy is busy throwing it at you in ribbons by the dozen. Conduct the duel in an environment more like the Mastrell's Path and I'll bet we would have seen some more interesting moves on Kenton's part, but in that situation finesse was all he had and all he needed to win.

Anyhow, part of that could also be down to White Sand being a draft that wasn't ready for publication on its own, and Brandon's improved as a writer since then. Certainly we get some hints of changes in the graphic novel we've gotten to date, even if a consequence of the format is that a lot of Khriss' scenes got cut and there's less room for some of Brandon's strengths to really show through in the format. We'll see how things stand when the next two volumes come out.