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Gender-swapped character


Windrunner Savant

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Along with this being an interesting change, what implications does it bring? Remember Kershtian women are supposed to be unassuming. What does it mean that she not only "betrayed" her people by joining the Hall, but she is also assuming a role of power and dominence despite being a Kershtian woman?

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I recall a while ago that Brandon mentioned Ais would be gender swapped. A few months back I tried to find corresponding WoB, but was never able to. It's probably buried somewhere in one of the signing threads. This just confirms what I remembered. 

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I agree, because for Khriss to even sit alongside a man was seen as offensive early in the book. It will be interesting to see how this situation is handled. Also Ais' now, presumably, husband is going to be an interesting character too. A big point of Ais marrying a Lossandin, was the fact that she wasn't the typical submissive Kershtian woman, and this was a challenge when they decided to leave for the holy city. Thanks challenge no longer exists, since Kershtian culture is now opening it's doors to people any who wish to swear thems lves to a Kershtian house.

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  • 8 months later...

I have SO much trouble with this. I can't see how Ais could work as a female. He/she was my favorite character along with Eric/Aarik. Him being female doesn't directly contradict any plot issues, but his character was built in an extremely masculine way. I have no clue why Brandon would change a character that was already perfect.

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On 2/6/2017 at 8:36 PM, Weltall said:

Struggling with inner demons and trying to decide whether faith or family is more important is hardly a gender-restricted issue.

That's what I meant with no direct plot contradictions.

 

On 2/7/2017 at 6:34 AM, jofwu said:

I've only read bits and pieces of the prose. What makes you say this?

I thought she worked really well as a woman.

As a character separately from the prose, Ais works as a female. But it's the comparison that bothers me. The image I got of Ais in the prose does not fit as a female. It isn't any one big thing, but the sum of his parts was not really changeable. From what I've read, Ais(F) is conflicted about religion. However, Ais(M) was devoted to his religion, which provided a pivotal part in the plot. It's not just the gender-swapping, but all of the changes that were made. I think that Ais(F) is a worthwhile character on her own, but doesn't hold up at all against Ais(M), so replacing him entirely with her was too much of a change.

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  • 1 month later...

I don't think it works too well with the culture on Dayside to be honest. The novel version made a pretty big deal of Khriss standing out to most other women on Dayside. You do have the Lady Judge though in a high position...so I suppose it's not impossible by any means to have a female trackt. 

I guess I just have a hard time making the transition in my mind after reading an entire book where Ais was a husband and a father. My dislike for the change is in no way because I don't think a woman can be protective of her spouse and child, it just throws the image off I had in my mind after reading the novel. 

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  • 1 month later...

This change really bothered me, not because of how it affected the character, but really because of what it would mean for Kershtian culture. This was a very male-dominated culture, which served very well as a backdrop to Khriss, letting her be more pronounced as a stranger in that culture. Changing Kershtian culture to be more inclusive in this case only serves to weaken Khriss and her story.

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13 hours ago, killersquirrel59 said:

Changing Kershtian culture to be more inclusive in this case only serves to weaken Khriss and her story.

(I haven't read the prose, for the most part).

I don't doubt that it feels different, but I disagree that it makes for an inferior story. Kerztian culture doesn't appear to be male-dominated in he graphic novel. Aside from Ais, there are plenty of female warriors. It's just different. Khriss absolutely stands out as a stranger on Dayside regardless. I'd be surprised if she doesn't stand out more than in the prose, because her clothes, dress, and mannerisms make her look out place in any panel just by... being there.

Granted I'm not certain where Khriss's story is headed. I only know a few snippets. But I don't see what you're saying so far as it concerns volume 1.

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

In the prose Ais was filled with hate towards sand masters, but his sense of duty required him to act with honor and keep his charge safe despite his hatred. Both hate and sense of duty are traditionally masculine. While not impossible to have as a female, it fits less to me. Additionally it kind of bothers me that kenton would have a female bodygaurd when the story as it is makes khriss the only main female which foreshadows the romantic entanglement quite well,

I am not saying that you can't have a female power, but personally I would have preferred kenton and khriss to have the genderswap then for Ais to have it, but that is impossible due to khriss appearing in canon story.

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11 hours ago, retrorocket1 said:

Both hate and sense of duty are traditionally masculine.

I have to utterly disagree with this statement.

But even if I didn't... I don't see how you can enjoy half of what Brandon writes, considering he breaks gender stereotypes left and right. Not to mention that this is a fantastical world that can have different stereotypes.

I also don't see how the presence of a second female character distracts from the first. They're totally different characters in totally different roles. Ais and Kenton haven't interacted really yet, but I don't see how her presence interferes with his relationship with Khriss? I mean... does the presence of Aarik take away from their relationship?

Lastly... who's to say the graphic novel won't be different on purpose? What if female Ais IS supposed to affect the way you see Khriss and Kenton, in this version?

Basically my point is that it seems the resistance to female-Ais isn't related to what the gender-swap actually does to the story (after all, we don't even have the full story to fully judge by yet), but rather it stems from simple discomfort with the story being different than what was expected. As someone who read volume 1 before the prose, I didn't sense anything off about Ais. In fact, the idea of a male Ais seems kind of... boring.

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hmm, a lot of my rejection comes from it already being the story and as others have said Kershtian society is typically male dominated and that was a big plot point, its mostly because Ais FEELS right as a guy not necessarily for any story reason. That said I would be fine with more female characters, even sand masters being female. I may have been overdoing it a bit when I said I'd rather Kenton and Khriss being gender-swapped, but personally it feels like Ais fit the most into his role as a guy as anyone.

Erik I never felt threatened by because we had the internal conversation and knew he was somewhat mad.

As for Brandon Sandersons gender role swapping, I actually usually enjoy it. I like having powerful female characters like Jasnah and Vin because they feel like they work. They feel realistic. Also with the lady judge it feels right. I just feel after reading the prose that it felt so right it shouldn't be changed.

Now given that I haven't read the graphic novel beyond what was in Arcanum Unbounded so I may change my mind after reading the book, but as it is now it feels wrong.

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  • 1 month later...

I recently reread the prose version, and I tried to substitute Ais as a woman in my head. It became quite problematic during middle portions of the book, when Ais was struggling with keeping his emotions under wraps. A man hiding from a battle because he's overwhelmed with fear comes across very differently than a woman doing the same thing; sure, maybe it's only because of what culture the individuals come from, but in the United States that kind of portrayal will be found offensive.

Unlike Stormlight, where the parshmen slavery has offended people even though it's pretty clear that Brandon is writing it as a bad thing, the patriarchal society in general in White Sand is accepted pretty much on face-value, so I don't think it will fly that well anyways with many readers. Removing it so a female Ais can fill the same role as a male Ais will have a side effect of removing some of Khriss's experience and some pretty blatant middle-eastern comparisons, but I don't think the problem for the story comes from losing Kershtian sexism. I think the problem is from the real-world gender conversation, and that a woman whose defining character trait is attempting to hide her overwhelming emotions will hearken back to perceived long-standing misportrayals of women as creatures overcome by emotion. Ais would literally suffer from 'hysteria.'

I guess I won't try to stumble too much farther along in this conversation, since I'm not well-versed in the topic, but it appears to me that Ais has no agency, especially at the end of the story when Kenton saves his daughter. In today's society, a story about a man with no agency is acceptable, but I don't think the same story about a woman would be found appropriate by many readers.

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On 11.5.2017 at 3:01 PM, jofwu said:

(I haven't read the prose, for the most part).

I don't doubt that it feels different, but I disagree that it makes for an inferior story. Kerztian culture doesn't appear to be male-dominated in he graphic novel. Aside from Ais, there are plenty of female warriors. It's just different. Khriss absolutely stands out as a stranger on Dayside regardless. I'd be surprised if she doesn't stand out more than in the prose, because her clothes, dress, and mannerisms make her look out place in any panel just by... being there.

Granted I'm not certain where Khriss's story is headed. I only know a few snippets. But I don't see what you're saying so far as it concerns volume 1.

Well the sexism of the Kerztian society seems to still be there in the graphic novel, it's just way harder to tell. Remember the scene where Kenton sells some of Khriss Jewelry to buy food from the Kerztian merchant? Spoilers obviously follow for the book.

In the book just before the scene of the gn starts it's described how offended the merchant is that Khriss dares to sit next to Kenton even though she is just a woman. Which he also shows when she talks during the negotiation and Kenton tries to make her stop to not ruin the trade. The merchant then says to Kenton how those darksider-women arrogance is not worth the bother in his experience. This part is still in the graphic novel and felt out of place for me because he rest of the scenes showing the obvious sexism weren't there, so the comment lost it's context.

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18 minutes ago, Amaror said:

Well the sexism of the Kerztian society seems to still be there in the graphic novel, it's just way harder to tell. Remember the scene where Kenton sells some of Khriss Jewelry to buy food from the Kerztian merchant? Spoilers obviously follow for the book.

In the book just before the scene of the gn starts it's described how offended the merchant is that Khriss dares to sit next to Kenton even though she is just a woman. Which he also shows when she talks during the negotiation and Kenton tries to make her stop to not ruin the trade. The merchant then says to Kenton how those darksider-women arrogance is not worth the bother in his experience. This part is still in the graphic novel and felt out of place for me because he rest of the scenes showing the obvious sexism weren't there, so the comment lost it's context.

See I think you're bringing preconceptions over, from the prose, that aren't there. In the graphic novel, Kenton only shushes her once, and it's because he's in the middle of finding out why the sand masters were attacked. He does raise his hands for her to be quiet the page before, but I only took it to mean that he's trying to negotiate a good deal and she's just interrupting and distracting. I'd do the same thing if I was trying to get a good deal on a trade and some other person, who doesn't speak the language, is pestering me to know what we're saying.

As for the merchant, I think you misunderstood him. He says, "Your companion is... quite beautiful. However, I have found that lonsha women are rarely worth the trouble'n of their arrogance." He says this when Khriss interrupts. There's no indication as to what "lonsha" means, but he doesn't just say "women" in general. Seems like I looked up the word in the prose while working on Coppermind stuff and it's still not very clear... but it seems to refer to nobles/high-born people or to Darksiders. Either way, there's no indication that the merchant is offended by a women being there, speaking, etc. He's just saying to Kenton, "Hey man, she's beautiful, but rich/darksider women aren't worth the trouble."

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3 hours ago, jofwu said:

See I think you're bringing preconceptions over, from the prose, that aren't there. In the graphic novel, Kenton only shushes her once, and it's because he's in the middle of finding out why the sand masters were attacked. He does raise his hands for her to be quiet the page before, but I only took it to mean that he's trying to negotiate a good deal and she's just interrupting and distracting. I'd do the same thing if I was trying to get a good deal on a trade and some other person, who doesn't speak the language, is pestering me to know what we're saying.

As for the merchant, I think you misunderstood him. He says, "Your companion is... quite beautiful. However, I have found that lonsha women are rarely worth the trouble'n of their arrogance." He says this when Khriss interrupts. There's no indication as to what "lonsha" means, but he doesn't just say "women" in general. Seems like I looked up the word in the prose while working on Coppermind stuff and it's still not very clear... but it seems to refer to nobles/high-born people or to Darksiders. Either way, there's no indication that the merchant is offended by a women being there, speaking, etc. He's just saying to Kenton, "Hey man, she's beautiful, but rich/darksider women aren't worth the trouble."

Maybe. The words of the merchant, like most dialogue in the graphic novel, is btw. a one-to-one copy from the prose. I just figured Ionsha means darksider since it made sense in the context. The merchant wouldn't say "rich" because he is currently trying to swindle Kenton into selling the jewelry for much less than their worth. 

I also like to think that the sexism is still there because I honestly think it would be unfortunate if it wasn't. Much of the story and characters in the prose is about the duality of the world. I actually made a larger post in it's own thread about this:

What I didn't mention in the thread is that this duality also translates into the prelavent government forms found on both dayside and darkside.

Spoiler

 

The society on the darkside is in many ways more advanced. This is obvious both in it's technology and it's more progressive views of women in the society, since both Lossandin and Kerztian societies are very patriarchal in that regard. But they are also less advanced in other aspects. This is obvious in the fact that darksider countries are still kingdoms and are ruled by a single authority, even though some more progressives ideas are starting to grow in those countries. Both Lossandin and Kerztian society are set up more republican. They are more oligarchies than true democracies, but it's still a step up from authoritarian Kingdoms. This provided a nice contrast in the story, another point to highlight the duality that is the prevaling theme of Sel and made deciding which of these sides was the better one an actual interesting and thoughfull question. Without the patriarchal sexism of the daysider societies they are just straight up better than the current darksider societies, which makes it a lot more boring in my opinion.

 

 

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