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5/2/16 - krystalynn03 - Roamwald C:13 (1980) (V)


krystalynn03

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Hey guys,

 

Like I said, the questions and feedback concerns I've got include a few spoilers for the chapter, so look at your own risk.

 

  • Pacing: If you had this in conjunction with the last chapter(s) (like you would if you had a whole novel in your hands at once), would you be more forgiving of the lower tension moments in 10-12? Or do you hold your opinion as before (for those who felt the suspense dropped too much in 12?
  • There's some blocking in this sequence toward the end that I think is still a little weird, but I'm not sure. Could you visualize positions of characters well enough to understand what was going on?
  • Trees: I need a tree that does what the fir tree does, but I don't think those trees are native to this kind of region. Help! I need a brushy evergreen.
  • Was the bear scene too violent?

  • How does Roamwald's actions with the bear read to you? Same for Bandit? Did I make motives/relationship clear?

  • Did I play out Jennie's thoughts and actions well? Any repetition or logical fallacy to cull?
  • Did the amount of foreign language bother or work for you? I don't want to repeat myself saying that he spoke in another language a hundred times, so I tried to put in a few things with English cognates. If this were a print, maybe there could be footnotes with translations, maybe not?

  • Any bad wordings? (Even though this is shorter, I spent two weeks cleaning the last submission and only one on this so I feel like some stuff has slipped me by.)
  • Anything else that worked well or didn't work well for you?

 

Thanks!

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Good chapter, lots of excitement and action, some good surprises with the

bear and Bandit, etc.

 

Jennie is lost again, but it does feel different. I can feel a search party coming on. My expectation of the King Kong-type story line is reinforced. It’s good writing (a few details in my in-line comments), I enjoy the style and the pacing, and Jennie’s an increasingly good character, handled consistently well, I think.

 

I don't mind the German, but it's frustrating not to understand it, so I pasted into G**gle translate. If there isn't too much, you might consider a footnote? Or not, depending on your audience, although it can't be any harder for youngsters than being presented with text German.

 

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I saw that when I very carefully checked that I was commenting about the correct section of the story. Confused me no end, as I was using the German words to search through to the right places!!

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Nothing immediately popped out to me while reading this, but to answer your questions:

 

Bear scene: sudden ending, but not too violent for me.  I was more worried for the dog.  

 

I was a little confused that Roamwald was so attached to the dog and so decisive to the bear.  I'm guessing he has the same thoughts about pets as we do?  Again, I don't have a good feeling for his culture yet.

 

It wasn't explicitly said, but I thought Roamwald must have seen Jennie as well, except then he ran off again, so I assume he didn't.  I'm wondering how Bandit got attached to Roamwald rather than Uncle Leon.

 

On the German, I was a bit annoyed with no translation, but I could catch the gist of what he meant.  Though if this is in tight POV from Jennie, then she wouldn't know what was being said, and there really shouldn't be a translation.  Maybe you could get across Roamwald's tone and feeling without specifically using German phrases more than needed to establish that he's speaking a foreign language?

 

I'll agree with Robinski that Jennie being lost again has a better, more focused feeling than the first time around.
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“The Wildwood was waking up, though it was still the middle of the night.” – I think I understand what this is, but I’m not sure. Part of my brain immediately goes to ROAMWALD! And that he is waking up the forest by coming through it and the other part of my brain is like, no it’s just the critters that are nocturnal and Jennie isn’t used to those. So… now I need to know xD Not sure if you intended this line to be so impactful but for me it is :D

 

Side note – Bandit has just become important; I’d love a little more description of him so I can picture this scene as I read it.

 

“It was a black bear.” – I really hope it’s explained why this thing isn’t in hibernation.

 

“Jennie knew she ran” – was running, not ran. Because it’s the action she’s currently doing in the narrative.

 

Limestone – What? So, is she right by the river? Limestone is formed mostly from the dead shells of marine organisms. If not by a large body of water, it’s usually found near where rivers can bring in specific types of sediment and deposit them. I’m certainly not saying the limestone can’t be there, it just completely changes where in the forest I think she is now and confuses me a bit. I’m just as lost as Jennie xD :D

 

“he had a strip of blue cloth and one of the ragged sleeves was shorter than before. The hands clumsily tried to get the blue cloth around Bandit’s leg wound” – this is going to be a sizing thing again. Roamwald’s arms are HUGE. If he stripped a piece of cloth from his sleeve to use as a bandage for the dog, it needs to be dog-sized, which means it’d be so insignificant to the size of his sleeve that it wouldn’t be noticeable in the dark from as far away as Jennie is to him. If it IS noticeable, then it’s way too big for Bandit’s leg. It’s probably long enough to wrap completely around Jennie’s house, regardless of width.

 

I like that Jennie decides to go after Roamwald, even though there’s no way she could catch up to him, she should eventually be able to get to where he’s headed. His strides will cover miles in seconds and she’s half frozen (again lol) and tiny so the traveling should be slow. My only concern heading into the next chapter(s) is how her pacing could possibly slow the story pacing. At this point I’m so excited I don’t’ want to have to wait for Jennie to arrive anywhere; I’m ready for her to BE there. :D

 

 

Not a lot of nitpicking this week! Woo! Have to wait for more chapters, BOO! LOL This definitely feels like a “getting there” chapter and not a “meat” chapter, so part of me was hoping for it to be used to add to the descriptions in the area, giving us a better “feel” of everything so we’re mentally prepared for whatever it is that comes next. Setting can add a lot to the mood, and if I were 10 and lost in the woods I’d be trying to pay attention to every little thing that could possibly catch my eye, nose or ears. Especially since it’s dark, moonlight is limited and I’m slowly freezing to death. I think you could ramp up the ‘terror’-based tension a bit without it being too scary (for YA readers) and then I’d even more readily accept that Jennie would run after Roamwald (he did bring her a sense of relief) instead of continuing to wait for her father to hopefully find her or possibly waiting/calling out for Leon, who should be somewhere nearby if his dog was here. Sure she was scared, but was she scared enough to abandon the hope her family would find her and run after her curiosity? I’m not sure.

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Nothing immediately popped out to me while reading this, but to answer your questions:
 
Bear scene: sudden ending, but not too violent for me.  I was more worried for the dog.  
 
I was a little confused that Roamwald was so attached to the dog and so decisive to the bear.  I'm guessing he has the same thoughts about pets as we do?  Again, I don't have a good feeling for his culture yet.
 
It wasn't explicitly said, but I thought Roamwald must have seen Jennie as well, except then he ran off again, so I assume he didn't.  I'm wondering how Bandit got attached to Roamwald rather than Uncle Leon.
 
On the German, I was a bit annoyed with no translation, but I could catch the gist of what he meant.  Though if this is in tight POV from Jennie, then she wouldn't know what was being said, and there really shouldn't be a translation.  Maybe you could get across Roamwald's tone and feeling without specifically using German phrases more than needed to establish that he's speaking a foreign language?
 
I'll agree with Robinski that Jennie being lost again has a better, more focused feeling than the first time around.

 

 

 

Hey Mandamon,

 

Roamwald and the dog and Leon

will make sense in the next chapter.

I hope those felt like good questions in your head, not bad questions. If it felt like curiosity, I'm happy you wondered those things, but if it felt like confusion, well, I don't think I can fix it and it answers itself soon enough.

 

German: Yeah, I worried I hadn't trimmed it back enough. Again, if I had footnotes, the reader who wants to know what he's saying could look, but I don't want anything to jar the reader out of the story, so it may not be a device that works regardless of formatting. I'll see what the overall consensus of annoyance and/or approval is and then make cuts. I know when reading some Japanese in a sub last week when I got to the Japanese I felt locked out of an important part of the story, which jolted me out of the narration, and if I'm causing that same reaction, I need to cull it.

 

Thanks!

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K, there are a LOT of fantasy works with completely made up languages in them and there will always be people who complain vs people who like the immersion into a world that is different than theirs. Yours isn't even a made up language, so if people are that concerned they can go all Robinksi and look it up themselves. The point from the story I got isn't that *what* he's saying is important, it's his actions that are important and the fact that 'Snatchers' have their own language, society. Readers should be able to 'get' what he's saying when you pair his lines with the actions they accompany. I don't have a problem with the amount of foreign language in it; the biggest issues for readers will be that the German alphabet is very guttural and the words are difficult to sound out if you don't know how it's supposed to sound, so readers will either gloss over it and move along the narrative or will sit there trying to sound things out... but in the end that's up to the readers and it's their choice how they approach it. It's important to the story, there's no reason to tone down things you need to the point where the language becomes an afterthought. IMHO.

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Shadowfax,

 

I like how you turned Robinski into a verb. B)  Let's capitalize it always. (That's his favorite thing.)

 

You know, the language thing might be a style question. I'm not sure there's any hard and fast rules to this kind of thing. I think children (the target audience) are much more accepting of things like that because they're more accustomed to accepting they didn't understand something in a text than adults are. I mean it to be there as a kind of boon. It's not necessary to understand--Roamwald's actions are meant to speak for themselves, and if you catch the cognates to English or happen to know some German words, then it's just bonus, but nothing is lost in the scene if you don't know what his words meant.

 

However, if the device annoys 9/10 people, then it's something I still have tread lightly when using, know what I mean? :) It's really fun to see how differently the same text/devices/tropes can hit different people, but the challenging part is assimilating all the feedback and deciding how to synthesize all of that into a form that best improves the narrative for the most people (while still, of course, remaining true to the story I'm telling).

 

Thanks!

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On the other hand, if we aren't your target readers, cutting it because 9/10 of us don't like it won't change a thing for your target audience :/ You're absolutely right about children being more accepting, and, this is JUST a suggestion, but maybe find a YA-type alpha reader to help you out on those parts before making a final decision? Stuff like this is just so hard to know what's right :/ I don't envy your position!

 

Robinski, v. :to copy-paste stuff into G-translate to figure out what in the world is really being said.

 

:D

 

edit: whoops. I haven't posted much lately and forgot about the language thing. I wasn't actually trying to skirt rules. Next time, send me a PM so I can fix?

Edited by Shadowfax
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Hey Shadwofax,

 

“The Wildwood was waking up, though it was still the middle of the night.” – I think I understand what this is, but I’m not sure. Part of my brain immediately goes to ROAMWALD!

 

Really interesting. I had never considered the reader having that reaction. I guess my question is this: Did it feel disappointing to you when you realized it wasn’t directly connected to him?

 

 “It was a black bear.” – I really hope it’s explained why this thing isn’t in hibernation.

 

 Well, I haven’t put a mention of the month on screen, but I guess I better fix that. Males come out of hibernation end of March/April, so that’s got to be the time frame we’re working in. I mentioned that the winter is running longer than normal, so maybe it is already April?

 

Limestone – What? So, is she right by the river?

 

I’m not a science nature expert by any means, but I don’t think you have to have a river nearby currently to have limestone. Those rocks are formed thousands of years beforehand, and they very popularly cause caves since they erode so well (afaik). I checked online and parts of the Appalachia are formed of limestone… The Shenandoah valley apparently has lots of them. (Hopefully ecohansen can chime in here?)

 

“he had a strip of blue cloth and one of the ragged sleeves was shorter than before. The hands clumsily tried to get the blue cloth around Bandit’s leg wound” – this is going to be a sizing thing again. Roamwald’s arms are HUGE. If he stripped a piece of cloth from his sleeve to use as a bandage for the dog, it needs to be dog-sized, which means it’d be so insignificant to the size of his sleeve that it wouldn’t be noticeable in the dark from as far away as Jennie is to him. If it IS noticeable, then it’s way too big for Bandit’s leg. It’s probably long enough to wrap completely around Jennie’s house, regardless of width.

 

I try not to play devil’s advocate too much, because if somebody notices a problem, even if I disagree with their logic, it can mean that I still didn’t describe things well enough, meaning the problem is still on my end. I can change the wording to insinuate the strip is a noticeable rip on only one part of the sleeve, but if he’s as nervous as he is, it would be equally possible that he tore off too much. If he tore off way too much, then it’s only more pathetic that he’s failing at this. I’ll try to make that image better.

 

I like that Jennie decides to go after Roamwald, even though there’s no way she could catch up to him, she should eventually be able to get to where he’s headed. His strides will cover miles in seconds

 

Miles in seconds? Oh no. Not even close. If he’s walking unobstructed, he’s making at best .6 miles in a minute. In three minutes, he’s still walked less than two. He’s walking uphill, on narrow path and trying not to jostle Bandit/Blitz, so he’s going to be going probably half as fast, so .3 miles a minute. Jennie still won’t catch up, but I just wanted to correct you head-imagery of how fast Roamwald is moving.

 

and she’s half frozen (again lol) and tiny so the traveling should be slow. My only concern heading into the next chapter(s) is how her pacing could possibly slow the story pacing. At this point I’m so excited I don’t’ want to have to wait for Jennie to arrive anywhere; I’m ready for her to BE there.

 

 Well, rest assured as far as pacing goes, the first thing I did with chapter 14 already in my edits and revisions for future submission is to cut most of the description of her walk following after Roamwald. I could already anticipate that kind of reaction you’re describe, so I’m trying to keep the break between high points as short as I can here because I know the reader (hopefully!) should want to get back to what Roamwald’s up to.

 

Not a lot of nitpicking this week! Woo!

 

YAY! :D

 

Have to wait for more chapters, BOO!

 

And I don’t think I’ll be ready to submit this week…I feel like submitting 3 weeks in a row is a little too much…so we’ll see. The next chapter is really long, and it needs a lot of work. My eight-year-long-alpha-reader-friend calls chapter 14 the emotional heart of the story, so I better make sure I get it right for you guys the first time around.

 

LOL This definitely feels like a “getting there” chapter and not a “meat” chapter,

 

In older versions of this story Roamwald didn’t show up in the chapter at all, so be glad you’re reading this one…

 

so part of me was hoping for it to be used to add to the descriptions in the area, giving us a better “feel” of everything so we’re mentally prepared for whatever it is that comes next. Setting can add a lot to the mood, and if I were 10 and lost in the woods I’d be trying to pay attention to every little thing that could possibly catch my eye, nose or ears.

 

True, but on the other hand, for every bit of forest detail I add in, the reader is reading through more text to get to the next important event. Maybe a few more phrases toward the end could accomplish what you’re wanting, but I’d be leery of adding too much. The sheep scene dragged for some folks and it wasn’t near as long as this.

 

Thanks, Shadowfax!

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Hey Shadwofax,

 

 

Really interesting. I had never considered the reader having that reaction. I guess my question is this: Did it feel disappointing to you when you realized it wasn’t directly connected to him?

 

By the time we got to Roamwald, I had stopped putting two and two together for this xD It was my initial reaction but I never had time to get disappointed or not because I was taken along with Jennie's PoV into hiding and then worried more about surviving than what was waking the animals.

 

 

 Well, I haven’t put a mention of the month on screen, but I guess I better fix that. Males come out of hibernation end of March/April, so that’s got to be the time frame we’re working in. I mentioned that the winter is running longer than normal, so maybe it is already April?

 

That would help. My reaction was based mostly off the fact that we've been told repeatedly it's freezing cold and still definitely winter (albeit a long one) so having a more concrete time frame would make the bear being up and about more understandable.

 

 

I’m not a science nature expert by any means, but I don’t think you have to have a river nearby currently to have limestone. Those rocks are formed thousands of years beforehand, and they very popularly cause caves since they erode so well (afaik). I checked online and parts of the Appalachia are formed of limestone… The Shenandoah valley apparently has lots of them. (Hopefully ecohansen can chime in here?)

 

There would still be some, even if small, evidence that a river or some form of water once existed there, but I'm not science-y enough to know what that could possibly entail. And my reaction was more, not to nitpick a river being there or not, but to show that I really was just as lost as Jennie and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I take what I know to try to orient myself, the same anyone else would if they were lost. Me personally, if I were lost in the woods and came across limestone caverns, I'd start looking for a river to follow in one direction or the other. So my initial reaction was, oh she's by the river again. But then I was like, wait, no river was described. Oh crap, where ARE we lol

 

 

I try not to play devil’s advocate too much, because if somebody notices a problem, even if I disagree with their logic, it can mean that I still didn’t describe things well enough, meaning the problem is still on my end. I can change the wording to insinuate the strip is a noticeable rip on only one part of the sleeve, but if he’s as nervous as he is, it would be equally possible that he tore off too much. If he tore off way too much, then it’s only more pathetic that he’s failing at this. I’ll try to make that image better.

 

This is a problem all writers have - we can SEE because we KNOW. Again, this isn't a real nitpick, it was more, I can't visually figure out the size of the sleeve scrap he's torn or try to visualize the scene well because the size of the dog is unknown and the size of Roamwald is still unclear. In my head it was like trying to wrap a blanket around a child's leg... and it was awkward.

 

 

Miles in seconds? Oh no. Not even close. If he’s walking unobstructed, he’s making at best .6 miles in a minute. In three minutes, he’s still walked less than two. He’s walking uphill, on narrow path and trying not to jostle Bandit/Blitz, so he’s going to be going probably half as fast, so .3 miles a minute. Jennie still won’t catch up, but I just wanted to correct you head-imagery of how fast Roamwald is moving.

 

Eh, I tend towards exaggeration. He's still going super fast compared to her. In ideal conditions she'd be walking .06 miles per minute, and she's not in ideal conditions. My visualization wasn't about actual speed but relative speed (he's still traveling over 3 times faster than she is), but I am glad to have some concrete info on how fast 'Snatchers' are compared to their size.

 

 

 Well, rest assured as far as pacing goes, the first thing I did with chapter 14 already in my edits and revisions for future submission is to cut most of the description of her walk following after Roamwald. I could already anticipate that kind of reaction you’re describe, so I’m trying to keep the break between high points as short as I can here because I know the reader (hopefully!) should want to get back to what Roamwald’s up to.

 

Oh, excellent to hear :D

 

 

And I don’t think I’ll be ready to submit this week…I feel like submitting 3 weeks in a row is a little too much…so we’ll see. The next chapter is really long, and it needs a lot of work. My eight-year-long-alpha-reader-friend calls chapter 14 the emotional heart of the story, so I better make sure I get it right for you guys the first time around.

 

I'm going to try my best to be patient xD :D

 

In older versions of this story Roamwald didn’t show up in the chapter at all, so be glad you’re reading this one…

 

Oh wow, yeah that would have slowed things down and I'm grateful for the change.

 

 

True, but on the other hand, for every bit of forest detail I add in, the reader is reading through more text to get to the next important event. Maybe a few more phrases toward the end could accomplish what you’re wanting, but I’d be leery of adding too much. The sheep scene dragged for some folks and it wasn’t near as long as this.

 

I think adding just an extra adjective here and there in the right place would add a lot more than adding extra lines. Especially if it's the 'right' adjective for the mood and tension of the scene. It wouldn't add as much length overall, but would add a lot in other ways. But then, this is me, and I have an issue with abusing adjectives and a penchant for verbosity that borders on the obscene.

 

Thanks, Shadowfax!

 

It's truly my pleasure. I'm eating this story up.

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I like how you turned Robinski into a verb. B)  Let's capitalize it always. (That's his favorite thing.)

 

Now, just a cotton-p***ing minute there. You try to provide a public service and do you get any thanks?

 

The funny thing is, since the derivation would be from a person's name, I don't think I would mind that capitalisation :P

 

Seriously though, it's such a privilege to have touched so many people in such a trivial, unproductive way.

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Robinski,

 

I legit laughed out loud when I read your response. I caught a Robinski.

 

Hidden rules to Robinsking new words:

 

Any Word you look up in the Dictionary must now be Capitlized. It lets others know that you are Expanding your Repertoire of Vocabulary!

 

It's a good Idea, don't you agree?

 

(Gosh, I wish I could insert troll face to this post.)

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p. 1 – I would put a “but” conjunction between those first two sentences

 

and this made her break off a branch of the old tree to defend herself.”

This took me out of the scene a little. Better to show more than tell, so maybe some sort of physical reaction, e.g. she makes herself small, she huddles the sheep in close to her, or she grows still – before you move onto an line “Jennie broke a branch off the tree to defend herself.”

 

The forest returned a muffled echo of her own voice.

Her shout startled a couple does. They had blended in with the tree shadows cast by the moon until they dashed away.

I’d either find a way to combine these paragraphs or choose one of the two lines. Both would be instantaneous.

 

p. 2 “its tail wagging happily.” wagging implies happiness.
Also you say “happily panted in her face” not two lines down.
p. 3 “the dog happily bounded around the sheep” to bound also pretty much means to make big happy jumps in my head, lol

 

Why would Jennie think Bandit was attacking the ewe? How big is the dog? And as a farm child, wouldn’t she know the signs of a dog on the hunt versus a dog herding? I might cut this exchange, it drags the scene.

 

“Jennie was immobilized by shockImplied.

 

“The rope loops cut into her wrist as the sheep ran and jerked her after.” The order here is clunky—should be: The sheep bolted (first), (second) the rope loops cutting her wrist as she was jerked after. Also, a lot of extra wording for a simple action sequence.

 

I’m rather intrigued by Roamwald’s new language – curious how you’re threading that through.

 

“Jennie stared, caught somewhere between horror and relief.”  The last two lines are telling that you don’t’ need. Better to describe the bear’s bloody corpse. :) :) :) hahaha. I love horror.

 

“The wounded leg had dark, wet matted fur on it and there was blood smeared in the white snow.” Clarify that it’s Bandit’s leg.

 

“forgetting those hands had saved her own life yesterday.” This breaks limited POV. How does a person consciously know they’re forgetting something? If she’s factoring him saving her in yesterday but discounting it, that’s not “forgetting.”

 

“She decided to call out to him.” This part is a bit clunky. I don’t really understand why Roamwald standing up while holding Bandit is so strange.

 

 

Hah – I’m assuming the ewe is lost again? 

 

I hope that helps!

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- I like the description of the setting, especially as Jeannie grows more and more frustrated by her surroundings. 

 

- I like the pacing too, especially as Jeannie's fortunes improve and then reverse with Bandit and the bear. 

 

- I also liked Roamwald's interaction with the dog. The fact that the so-called Snatcher is doing so with no apparent knowledge of Jeannie only adds to his characterization.

 

- I liked this chapter. It moves really fast, adds to the depth of Roamwald's characterization and also increases the stakes of Jeannie's situation. I definitely want to see more. 

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