A war between Scadrial (era 2) and Roshar

[Bowiespoon]

So, I'll start this with how this would happen.

 

For simplicity, lets say this conflict takes place between Alethkar and Elendel, with none of the other factions coming into play.

 

Elendel's people (at least the North) have a great hatred towards slavery, due to TLR's oppression, and many religious figures fighting slavery and oppression. Alethkar has widespread use of slavery, a caste system similar to nobles and skaa, and pretty corrupt/terrible leaders, so it's not to hard to imagine one of these nations going at the others throat.

 

Who do you think would win?

Edited March 28, 2016 by Bowiespoon

[Voidus]

Scadrial pretty easily, way more magic users than Roshar has as well as better technology. I think a group of soldiers with rifle could take down a Shardbearer pretty easily actually.

[Bugsy]

I'd also say that Scadrial has a much more versatile magic system. They have powers for defense and disruption (lurchers), powers that enable the user to survive and fight more capably (Feruchemical pewter, Feruchemical steel, Allomantic pewter), and even the ability to literally manipulate time. In a war situation, this last one might actually be the most effective. Just bait a shardbearer into entering a time bubble and you could just have coinshots line up and fire hundreds of coins through it, crippling or killing him. Even with the coins refracting, chances are he'd be hit due to sheer quantity. Although Rosharans are capable when it comes to organizing warfare, allomancers would likely be able to steal some soulcasters, drastically reducing their abilities to field an offense. As soon as Scadrial fighters learned how to soulcast metal, they'd be near unstoppable.

Also, I'm assuming that Marsh would enter the fight on the side of Scadrial. He'd undoubtedly win against shardbearers (He can compound Feruchemical atium, and chances are he can compound aAtuim as well. He's also likely to have become a gold compounder, assuming a sacrifice at some point in the 300 year time gap

BoM spoiler:

If Scadrial has the Bands, they'd literally be unstoppable. Plus, assuming the south would fight as well, they have allomantic grenades and planes. I'm assuming this is before BoM, because otherwise it's an incredibly unbalanced fight

[Oversleep]

Yeah, why not, give Scadrial not only all the technology and whatever, but also get Marsh on their side and Bands Of Mourning.

So I'm assuming Roshar has all the Heralds on their side and also they found all the lost Shardblades and Shardplates (cause like 90% of them are missing). So they got an army of Shardbearers led by ageless Surgebinder warriors. Oh, and they have all the modern fabrials and also recreated all the Surgebinding fabrials.

If Shardplate can withstand direct lightning hit, I assume that it cannot be simply destroyed by bullets, unless you got a lot of big calibres.

Shards are unaffected by Allomancy. Scadrians are gonna be slaughtered.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Oversleep

[Edgedancer]

Well, at this point lining up Scadrial and Roshar against each other is like lining up Vin and Kaladin against each other, the fight is inherently unfair by one having one and a half series to build up its magic, tecnology and the like while the other effectively being crippled by having reached only a fraction of their actual potential.

Right now, Scadrial ought to win but after Roshar had a resurgence of magic and hundredths if not thousands of Knight Radiants running around? Different game entirely.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Edgedancer

[IndigoAjah]

Would Harmony get involved?

Also, if they manage to recreate Mistborn, we have seen how lethal a strong, skilled Mistborn is in Vin. But the biggest difference for me is that right now Scadrial have a ranged weapon AND ranged magic advantage, which history tells us is huge (I'd argue only disease and immunity plays a bigger part in conquering nations). They can also probably hack the Roshar magic system. Bullets won't do much against Plate individually but enough of them certainly will.

Can only see one winner until Roshar catch up both in terms of magic but also technology, though once they do real shard blades (spren) and Surgebinding Fabrials could turn the tide and Stormlight powers are more flexible than metals- stormlight itself basically gives you F Gold and A Pewter and maybe some F Zinc and Steel automatically before even using specific powers

[+Authweight]

Aside from weapon technology, magic, and whatever else, Scadrial has a fully industrial economy backed up by an extremely fertile and abundant agricultural base. My guess is that Scadrial would be able to field and support an army many times larger than what Roshar could field. Technology like trains and the telegraph would let Scadrial organize their entire society on a war footing in a way Roshar can't.

Plus Scadrial weapon technology isn't just rifles and handguns. I don't think a shardbearer would have a good time against an artillery battery, machine guns, or hand grenades. Plus there's all the potential of southern scadrial tech.

I think in a war, Roshar would be annihilated by a serious Scadrian war effort.

[amulligan99]

I'd have to say it all depends on the palaying field. If it takes place on roshar then the scadrians won't be prepared for high storms. Although if it takes place on scadrial then there is no stormlight which is pretty much all of the base and fuel of alethkar's technology and magic.

[IndigoAjah]

I assume if the Scadrians were invading Roshar, they'd have some knowledge of the planet, most invading forces would send scouts or spies first. Once you know about them, Highstorms can be protected against fairly easily, I think

[IndigoAjah]

Yeah, why not, give Scadrial not only all the technology and whatever, but also get Marsh on their side and Bands Of Mourning.

So I'm assuming Roshar has all the Heralds on their side and also they found all the lost Shardblades and Shardplates (cause like 90% of them are missing). So they got an army of Shardbearers led by ageless Surgebinder warriors. Oh, and they have all the modern fabrials and also recreated all the Surgebinding fabrials.

If Shardplate can withstand direct lightning hit, I assume that it cannot be simply destroyed by bullets, unless you got a lot of big calibres.

Shards are unaffected by Allomancy. Scadrians are gonna be slaughtered.

Are Shards known to be unaffected by Allomancy?  I mean, I assume they aren't metal, but that's supposition, no? And even then all it takes is one Lord Ruler mark 2 and that's pretty much a god on the field, can't really see anyone short of Vessel level beating a prepared and determined Full Compounder, especially as they would be even more overpowered now with compounded luck and investiture and the likely means to soulcast rare metals and the new use of bendalloy time bubbles, duralumin bursts, nicrosil for all their allies, the potential for nicrosil and chromium to work on Stormlight (who knows/), EttMetal objects and then when they inevitably kill a herald and get their honorblades it gets even nastier

[Arrae]

I think it's unfair to compare Scadrial and Roshar right now. Scadrial has had seven books to showcase its allomantic, feruchemical, hemalurgical, industrial, and economic development. Roshar has had two books, and the main characters are still figuring out their powers.

 

But Scadrial as of BoM would probably stomp Roshar of WoR.

[CaptainRyan]

Scadrial has a fully industrial economy backed up by an extremely fertile and abundant agricultural base. My guess is that Scadrial would be able to field and support an army many times larger than what Roshar could field. 

 

 

Soulcasting allowed for a pre-industrial army of over 100,000 people to encamp in a single location with little-to-no agriculture/hunting for over six years. I am fairly sure that Rosharan armies are easier to keep supplied in the field thanks to soulcasting. Point to Roshar.

 

 

 

Technology like trains and the telegraph would let Scadrial organize their entire society on a war footing in a way Roshar can't.

 

Spanreeds allow for instantaneous communication that only requires a pen and a surface to write on. Telegraphs require a very large investment in infrastructure and are easily sabotaged. Point to Roshar.

 

Trains are definitely an advantage to Scadrial. Point to Scadrial.

 

 

That being said, guns are a huge force multiplier and, depending on the scenario, it would be extremely difficult for a Rosharan army equipped mainly with spears and arrows to win against a line of rifleman backed by Gatling guns and, possibly, artillery.

 

If, however, Alethkar discovered how to worldhop and was able to invade the Basin in a surprise attack then I think it is quite possible they could overcome the loosely organized Basin (do they even have a standing army? Is it very large?) and then Navani could reverse-engineer guns. At that point I think it is pretty safe to say the Alethi could subdue the Basin.

 

Most likely scenario, to me, is that the Basin would be able to defeat the spear armies of Alethkar due to superior tech and better access to magic (mistings/twinborn).

[Bowiespoon]

Man, roshar isn't getting any love today.

 

Roshar is the ultimate defensive location

 

If a Scadrial army tried to invade:

 

Highstorms would tear them apart, and they don't yet know how to predict them, so a rosharin (rosharian?) army could draw them out and devastate them.

 

Unaccustomed to the new environment, they wouldn't know what plants are safe to eat or what to use for medicine, meaning they would have to export crops and supplies from Scadrial, when all Roshar needs to do is whip out a gemheart and a soulcaster to feed themselves.

 

It also needs to be noted that Scadrial has a pretty terrible standing army (if there even is one), so they would lack the discipline and experience of the veteran spearmen.

 

and that is before we consider the warlike nature of Roshar, and the relatively timid Scadrian government.

 

Also, for this scenario, lets assume that none of the really powerful entities are partaking in this fight, so no ironeyes, no BoM, no heralds.

 

Just shardbearers, mistings/twinborns, and radiants.

 

 

Also, I highly suspect the mist could be used to power a soulcaster if roshar was invading.

[IndigoAjah]

Soulcasting allowed for a pre-industrial army of over 100,000 people to encamp in a single location with little-to-no agriculture/hunting for over six years. I am fairly sure that Rosharan armies are easier to keep supplied in the field thanks to soulcasting. Point to Roshar.

 

 

Spanreeds allow for instantaneous communication that only requires a pen and a surface to write on. Telegraphs require a very large investment in infrastructure and are easily sabotaged. Point to Roshar.

 

Trains are definitely an advantage to Scadrial. Point to Scadrial.

 

 

That being said, guns are a huge force multiplier and, depending on the scenario, it would be extremely difficult for a Rosharan army equipped mainly with spears and arrows to win against a line of rifleman backed by Gatling guns and, possibly, artillery.

 

If, however, Alethkar discovered how to worldhop and was able to invade the Basin in a surprise attack then I think it is quite possible they could overcome the loosely organized Basin (do they even have a standing army? Is it very large?) and then Navani could reverse-engineer guns. At that point I think it is pretty safe to say the Alethi could subdue the Basin.

 

Most likely scenario, to me, is that the Basin would be able to defeat the spear armies of Alethkar due to superior tech and better access to magic (mistings/twinborn).

Would it be that hard for the Scadrians to get hold of and reverse-engineer span-reeds though? And with medallions, some of us think they can hack into Roshar magic :/

[Bowiespoon]

Would it be that hard for the Scadrians to get hold of and reverse-engineer span-reeds though? And with medallions, some of us think they can hack into Roshar magic :/

Have someone destroy the spanreed if they think they might get captured, then have anyone who might know how to build or fix one commit suicide, or order your troops to kill them so as not to divulge secrets.

 

and I just remembered that they'd likely emerge in the horneater peaks, and that very hostile environment would kill almost all of them.

 

Also, this is just Elendel, they don't have any southern tech in this scenario, so no warmth medalions either.

[CaptainRyan]

 

Man, roshar isn't getting any love today.

 

Roshar is the ultimate defensive location

 

[reasons - highstorms, unfamiliar environment, lack of discipline]

 

Defense does not win wars!

I think the issue, at least from my perspective, is that the problems you list (highstorms, unfamiliarity of the environment and lack of discipline) are all temporary situations for Scadrians but the disadvantages for Roshar are more long term. Scadrians, if they were invading Alethkar, would definitely be at a disadvantage initially in terms of local knowledge but within a few weeks (maybe months at most) they would know highstorms are a thing, that rockbuds have weird grain in them and, over the course of the war, discipline is learned by veterans.

 

On the long term front, Scadrians (from the Basin) already have a huge technological advantage (guns, railroads, radio etc.) not to mention a very strong agricultural and industrial base. Also, in terms of sheer numbers, I do believe the Basin is more populated than Roshar? Also, Scadrians have a MUCH higher proportion of magic users and their magic can be very devastating in war (pewter for warriors, tin for scouts, coinshots, soothers/rioters to lower enemy morale/bolster allied morale etc.).

 

Alethkar has a trained army but it is laughably underequipped to fight an early 1900s tech army that also has Allomantic and Feruchemical support. Shardbearers would be powerful but there are only so many of them - I believe the entire kingdom of Alethkar only has 30-ish full shardbearers [read that on the coppermind]. A powerful force indeed but 30ish men in full shards does not, in my opinion, outweigh the possibility of thousands of battle-mistings supported by tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of rifle armed infantry. Can you imagine even a shardbearer withstanding hundreds upon hundreds of bullet/coin impacts when the mere impact of a sword or mace can (slowly) crack plate?

 

 

Would it be that hard for the Scadrians to get hold of and reverse-engineer span-reeds though? And with medallions, some of us think they can hack into Roshar magic :/

 

Not entirely sure the Basin folk can hack the magic system. Also, there is no telling if Scardian magic (unhacked) can replicate Alethkar magic (unhacked).

 

 

I think Alethkar would, eventually, be doomed if battling era 2 Scadrians. Now, if we, instead, pit the Final Empire from era 1 against Alethkar... well, I bet you would see some AWESOME battles with Koloss, Inquisitors, noble mistings and skaa footsoldiers lined up opposite spearmen, shardbearers and the odd proto-Radiant or three. That would be an epic war indeed!

[IndigoAjah]

So basically, if we specifically set the situation so that Roshar can win, then Roshar can win, if we actually take the full mights of both planets at their current book stages (and this would go on forever - it's not like whilst magic and tech catches up in Roshar, there won't be progress in Scadrial - we know that the next series in Scadrial involve "modern" era and then sci-fi!) it's very very probably Scadrial (they have an unfair advantage, but any attempt to remove that advantage is ignoring the actual difference between the two planets at any point in time). So how close a fight it is depends on just how far we are willing to skew things towards Roshar?

[IndigoAjah]

 

 

 

Defense does not win wars!

I think the issue, at least from my perspective, is that the problems you list (highstorms, unfamiliarity of the environment and lack of discipline) are all temporary situations for Scadrians but the disadvantages for Roshar are more long term. Scadrians, if they were invading Alethkar, would definitely be at a disadvantage initially in terms of local knowledge but within a few weeks (maybe months at most) they would know highstorms are a thing, that rockbuds have weird grain in them and, over the course of the war, discipline is learned by veterans.

 

On the long term front, Scadrians (from the Basin) already have a huge technological advantage (guns, railroads, radio etc.) not to mention a very strong agricultural and industrial base. Also, in terms of sheer numbers, I do believe the Basin is more populated than Roshar? Also, Scadrians have a MUCH higher proportion of magic users and their magic can be very devastating in war (pewter for warriors, tin for scouts, coinshots, soothers/rioters to lower enemy morale/bolster allied morale etc.).

 

Alethkar has a trained army but it is laughably underequipped to fight an early 1900s tech army that also has Allomantic and Feruchemical support. Shardbearers would be powerful but there are only so many of them - I believe the entire kingdom of Alethkar only has 30-ish full shardbearers [read that on the coppermind]. A powerful force indeed but 30ish men in full shards does not, in my opinion, outweigh the possibility of thousands of battle-mistings supported by tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of rifle armed infantry. Can you imagine even a shardbearer withstanding hundreds upon hundreds of bullet/coin impacts when the mere impact of a sword or mace can (slowly) crack plate?

 

 

 

Not entirely sure the Basin folk can hack the magic system. Also, there is no telling if Scardian magic (unhacked) can replicate Alethkar magic (unhacked).

 

 

I think Alethkar would, eventually, be doomed if battling era 2 Scadrians. Now, if we, instead, pit the Final Empire from era 1 against Alethkar... well, I bet you would see some AWESOME battles with Koloss, Inquisitors, noble mistings and skaa footsoldiers lined up opposite spearmen, shardbearers and the odd proto-Radiant or three. That would be an epic war indeed!

 

I still back Scadrial, even if you don't let them have Vin/Elend or TLR. Just send the Mistborn to kill off all the Roshar leaders, for one thing.

 

I'm pretty sure there's  a WoB that you can use connection to hack a world's magic system? 

[CaptainRyan]

I'm pretty sure there's  a WoB that you can use connection to hack a world's magic system? 

 

Sorry, what I meant was not that it is impossible for the Basin folk to hack a magic system but rather that no one currently knows how. So, even if they captured a span reed I think it would take a long time for them to hack a new one using Allomancy/Feruchemy.

[Bowiespoon]

So basically, if we specifically set the situation so that Roshar can win, then Roshar can win, if we actually take the full mights of both planets at their current book stages (and this would go on forever - it's not like whilst magic and tech catches up in Roshar, there won't be progress in Scadrial - we know that the next series in Scadrial involve "modern" era and then sci-fi!) it's very very probably Scadrial (they have an unfair advantage, but any attempt to remove that advantage is ignoring the actual difference between the two planets at any point in time). So how close a fight it is depends on just how far we are willing to skew things towards Roshar?

Yes, in the right circumstances, Roshar could win. Scadrial trying to invade would face a lot of attrition, but would likely win most staked battles.

 

Also, the second Rosharan soldiers swipe a gun away from Scadrial infantry, soul casters can start mass producing.

 

I have come to the conclusion that, with the set parameters, Scadrial would likely win, but not by as much as you'd think. Scadrial troops would have initial enormous environmental attrition, and Roshar would have enormous initial defeats due to inferior tech. However, Roshars - quite frankly stupidly overpowered - mass production can really close the gap in terms of strength.

[IndigoAjah]

But the Rosharians don't know how Fabrials work on a magical level yet either (aside from Heralds, probably), so would it not just be reverse engineering tech in that case? Though I do suppose they need to get the gemstones to actually manage it\\

 

 

EDIT: on the closer than I think, I just can't get the knowledge of what a handful of men with guns did to the Aztec, Inca and Zulu Empires out of my head, invading their lands with little resource or support or knowledge of the area. Would still struggle against the magic users, admittedly, but guns have been such a gamebreaker in real life that they are one of the main reasons history turned out the way it did

Edited March 28, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[Bowiespoon]

But the Rosharians don't know how Fabrials work on a magical level yet either (aside from Heralds, probably), so would it not just be reverse engineering tech in that case? Though I do suppose they need to get the gemstones to actually manage it

Correct, they don't know how they work, but they do know how to use them.

 

really, once you get past that point - assuming Roshar hasn't been wiped out by them - the mistings and twinborn are all thats left, and shardbearers and about 4-5 radiants are not going to counter that.

 

So, even if Roshar catches up, they'll still be weaker.......

 

But we haven't even considered how the slaves on roshar would react, nor how the angry cities might suddenly turn on Elendel.

 

AND

 

Roshar has a certain stick.......

[Voidus]

The only magic on Roshar that is widely available is also instantly usable by anyone from Scadrial, kill a Shardbearer? You get his Shards. Capture a camp? Get all their fabrials. And there are a lot more experienced scholars on Scadrial than there are on Roshar.

Yes the first Highstorm would be pretty devastating if they didn't know anything about it but they aren't exactly likely to just be standing in the middle of an open field when it hits.

In fact they'd probably be striking at the Rosharan warcamps. If your enemies one day all break ranks and go hide inside their houses you don't just shrug and wait politely for them to come out.

Something that has been overlooked though is that every single Scadrian is going to be significantly stronger than any Rosharan. The gravity on the two planets is different, if the battles take place on Roshar then the Scadrians instantly all become thugs basically and the actual thugs become Koloss.

Not to mention that the vast majority of Roshars weapons are metal, they just don't have experience fighting allomancers. Which means all of their arrows can be deflected by the Mistings in the Scadrian army and yet they have no defense whatsoever against a barrage of guns.

Sorry Roshar but Scadrial absolutely dominates this battle.

[Oversleep]

Do we have any hard numbers on the armies? Because Alethkar is very millitarily oriented with a lot of soldiers, while I don't remember a single mention of an army in Basin. Lawmen, sure, but no soldiers.

Roman Empire had a very significant advantage over barbarians: strategy and military training. Simple fact of having war formations was a game breaker: 10 000 Roman soldiers against 100 000 to 230 000 British warriors.

 

And there was no war in the last 300 years in the Basin, while Alethkar is constantly at war.

[Voidus]

Do we have any hard numbers on the armies? Because Alethkar is very millitarily oriented with a lot of soldiers, while I don't remember a single mention of an army in Basin. Lawmen, sure, but no soldiers.

Roman Empire had a very significant advantage over barbarians: strategy and military training. Simple fact of having war formations was a game breaker: 10 000 Roman soldiers against 100 000 to 230 000 British warriors.

 

And there was no war in the last 300 years in the Basin, while Alethkar is constantly at war.

Which works fine against another army fighting the same way you do but an army that can decimate yours from a kilometer away? With a platoon of irregulars who can fly, rip the weapons from your hands, raise their moral while lowering yours, punch through your armor, see you from a mile away and slow or speed up time. Another group who can turn into the hulk, travel at superspeed, adjust to your strategies in an instant, become impervious to pain, heal from mortal wounds, have perfect recall of military tactics...

Even without the technological advantage, Scadrial has a far better fighting force, with more advanced technology as well I really don't see this ending well for Roshar at all.