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Master Elodin

Odium's Intent

28 posts in this topic

When Adonalsium was Shattered, 16 shard bearers gained immense power and some shardic Intent. Odium is the godly representation of hate, and as such he wants to destroy all other shards. But how does he have so much power? My theory is that him being "broken" refers to his soul having been cracked, thus opening him to outside influence. But what influence would that be? My guess is that it's the mysterious and omnipresent "God Beyond".

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Oh yeah, this is also my first post here so keep that in mind.

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Interesting I always wondered how odium would have managed to have enough power to take on shards on there own worlds and walk away especially when it seems like cultivation and honor would have worked together

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I might be completely blanking on something obvious here but what do you mean by Odium being "broken"?

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He is referred to as "the broken one" in epigraph 11 of WoK.

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I think we have a very large clue in The Letter. The writer, whom is presumed to be Hoid, says that Rayse was already dangerous before he became a Holder. Perhaps it is Rayse's Connection to Odium, that of all the Shardholders, he is the most compatible with his Shard.

Also, I think there is something to be said for Odium's campaign of splintering Shards. Is the fact that he has splintered many of the Shards a sign of power, or the Source of his power?

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I believe we have a WoB stating that all Shards started out with equal power. 

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I personally think that it's because Odium hasn't invested. He hates all things, and therefore would not expend energy creating them. This lets him splinter shards one by one, letting his power recuperate in between.

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but there are deferentially void spren and if they work the same way as honor spren they are splinter of odium at-least if sylphrena was telling the truth when she said  she was a small piece of a god 

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but there are deferentially void spren and if they work the same way as honor spren they are splinter of odium at-least if sylphrena was telling the truth when she said  she was a small piece of a god 

He invested himself when he neeeded for his plans. But I hardly believe He would give part of his power to others without gaining something from that (For example R&P Invested all the lifeform on Scadrial or Enodwment with his power empowered the Nalthis's soul as Breath).

 

It's a far lesser scale I suppose.

Edited by Yata
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Yes I believe odium's extra power comes from the fact that he doesn't invest very much in things, and is thus able to be slightly more powerful than other shards it takes on. Except harmony, who odium is rightfully afraid of.

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I believe that it has been confirmed that Odium Splinters Shards using the same technique that was used to Shatter Adonalsium. His ability to kill the Shardholders is indeed a result of his being relatively Uninvested.

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Interesting. Seeing as odium is using the same techniques as were used against adolnasium... And seeing as he still needs to have more investiture than his opponents for the technique to succeed... Doesn't this imply that a force with greater power than adolnasium was used to shatter adolnasium?

 

Or maybe adolnasium was actually completely invested in everything. In this case, it would take minimal force to shatter it. This actually makes a lot of sense.

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I believe that it has been confirmed that Odium Splinters Shards using the same technique that was used to Shatter Adonalsium. His ability to kill the Shardholders is indeed a result of his being relatively Uninvested.

 

Did we get a WoB on this or something? I mean, it makes intuitive sense, I just didn't know it was confirmed.

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I always figured that Odium's ability to splinter Shards wasn't necessarily because Odium was stronger, but because his Intent allowed him to perform those actions easier. That his whole thing is breaking things, essentially, in the opposite way that Honor's Intent is about binding things.

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Same here. Odium's very nature requires him to destroy things (not Ruin).

Same reason why Cultivation is better at seeing the future than, say, Ruin.

 

Welcome to the forums JerleShannara. Airships are awesome.

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Yes I believe odium's extra power comes from the fact that he doesn't invest very much in things, and is thus able to be slightly more powerful than other shards it takes on. Except harmony, who odium is rightfully afraid of.

 

I'm blanking. How do we know Odium is afraid of Harmony? WoB or part of a book?

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I'm blanking. How do we know Odium is afraid of Harmony? WoB or part of a book?

A WoB, something like:

"Odium is aware of the Harmony's Ascension and it's afraid of it"

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I'm blanking. How do we know Odium is afraid of Harmony? WoB or part of a book?

 

In addition to the WoB it just makes sense when you know that Odium's goal is to shatter all 15 other shards, and that he refuses to take up any of the others himself that he would be worried about any Vessel containing two shards at once.

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On another question regarding Odium's Intent. Does anyone else feel that it's very ... generic?

I mean if we look at the other shards that we know the Intents of we have:

Preservation: Wants to preserve others.

Ruin: Wants to destroy things.

Devotion: Wants people to be devoted

Honor: Wants people to be honorable.

 

All of these either want their enact their description upon others, like preservation or ruin, or want other to act according to their description, like honor or devotion. 

Odium, being essentially hatred stands out, because his intent seems to be to just destroy the other shards.

But desctruction was allready ruins thing.

He even uses a race that he basically created using his own kind of magic, the voidspren, in order to destroy things.

Which is basically the exact same thing that ruin did with his inquisitors and kolloss. 

I don't know, to me odium feels like a pretty generic "evil god". And considering that he's supposed to be hatred he could have been so much more interesting as a nemesis. If his intent would be to bring others to be hatefull, similar to honor or devotion, he could be an illusive and somewhat sneaky bad guy. Sowing distrust and hatred between allies and friends, getting people to fight each other and destroy each other over petty reasons, then despair seeing what they did in rage. 

Now he's just another evil god that destroys stuff. Not exactly ground breaking.

 

Disclaimer: I still vastly enjoy Brandon's books, before anyone here feels defensive, and they are among my most favourite books. I was just a bit dissappointed with odium since I think that a shard symbolising hatred could have been much more interesting than what we've got.

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On another question regarding Odium's Intent. Does anyone else feel that it's very ... generic?...

Odium, being essentially hatred stands out, because his intent seems to be to just destroy the other shards....

 I don't know, to me odium feels like a pretty generic "evil god". And considering that he's supposed to be hatred he could have been so much more interesting as a nemesis. If his intent would be to bring others to be hatefull, similar to honor or devotion, he could be an illusive and somewhat sneaky bad guy. Sowing distrust and hatred between allies and friends, getting people to fight each other and destroy each other over petty reasons, then despair seeing what they did in rage. 

Now he's just another evil god that destroys stuff. Not exactly ground breaking...

 

I would like to counter your thoughts to try to get your hopes back up on Odium.

To me the above you stated aren't exactly true, otherwise he would have destroyed everything on Sel. There is still civilization in Sel, and it is flourishing, centuries after the Splintering/Shattering of the Shards there (who knows where they have gotten to in the time of the Stormlight  Archive).

There is something very specific going on with Desolations on Roshar, and it may have to do with Odium countering Cultivation's Intent, thus why he is trying to destroy everything alive, or at least making Roshar barren. 

 

What if Adonalsium's Odiuousness (hopefully this is a word) was to hate Itself or It's Godly powers, so that then Odium's Intent (which is stripped of the other Adonalsium Intents) is to hate the other Shards, and try to destroy them? Would this make him more interesting?

 

And he may be doing all of the sneaky things you hoped he would be doing. But it's just that hatred is such a generic emotion that you just can't pin down if it's because of Odium. Think of the irrational hatred Dilaf had of Elantrians and everything not Fjordell.  And the fact that he has been driving Roshar to continuous wars in the past centuries (as witnessed by the Kaladin when he flew with the storm, and by Dalinar's vision of what he thinks is the Recreance and Nohadon) means he has sown hatred into Roshar.

Remember, we are seeing Odium as he is trying to counter 2 specific Shards on Roshar. I believe that to counter Cultivation he is causing the Desolations.  I am sure he would use different methods in other worlds.

Edited by Kelek's Breath
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Perhaps the fact that Rosharan Shards are Honor and Cultivation largely counteracts this approach.

  • people are of Honor which may have an effect on their behaviour
  • Honor set up his Heralds to be an example for people and made them return to lead people against forces of evil
  • Odium is located on Braize, not on Roshar
  • He is not Invested in Roshar (Ruin was largely Invested in Scadrial, what allowed him to have more influence)
  • Cultivation is a fully aware Shard opposing him
  • Odium is bound "by Tanavast design or not"

Despite all these, Odium managed to create his Unmade and they're influencing people - Nergaoul causes the Thrill which makes people lose themselves in the battle and bloodshed, feeling joy as they're slaughtering enemies. I believe there are more influences Unmade have on people.

I feel it is important to point out how subtle and smooth was Odium move with inventing the Thrill - Alethkar descends itself from Alethela which was the war kingdom (as the female Radiant in Midnight Essence vision said). Thrill isn't something completely new - berserker rage is a thing, Odium just made the bloodlust more prevalent and strenghtened it to this point that somebody not feeling the Thrill is considered odd. Nobody is going to suspect that this 'heritage' of the protectors of humanity is in fact caused by the evil god of Voidbringers.

Edited by Oversleep
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He is referred to as "the broken one" in epigraph 11 of WoK.

Personally I think people are commonly misconceiving the meaning of that epithet. 3 ruling is clearly cultivation, honor and odium, but I think the broken one is honor. The key is the meaning and deliberate selection of ruling, which is active, vs reigning, which is inactive. The Queen of the U.K. (And other places) Reigns, but she doesn't Rule anymore. Honor is still Reigning, he is revered as God in a way most of the planet doesn't revere the other 2 shards, but he doesn't Rule and he is known to be broken, and I'm not sure either of the other shards can be seen to be actively involved in running Roshar, with the gap between Desolations and him being on Braize stopping Odium and Cultivation seeming hands off

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Odium has two meanings, meaning both to hate others and to be hated yourself. Brandon has said (I don't have the quote right now) that Odium's intent encompasses both meanings.

I'll also say that, as I see it, when you hate someone, you don't just want to destroy them. You want them to suffer. It may be that Odium's goal is not to destroy the universe. (It's already been pointed out that he certainly doesn't seem to have obliterated life on Sel after splintering Devotion and Dominion). The Desolations are consistent with this Intent - he gets to cause a whole bunch of suffering, then he goes away for a while so the world can put itself back together some, then he comes back and twists the knife some more. If he pushed much harder, he would just wipe everyone out, which may actually be a worse outcome from Odium's perspective.

I think there's a lot more going on with the Oathpact and the Desolations than we realize. I don't think Honor was the nice guy we all think he is, and Odium's goals are more specific than to just destroy.

Edited by Authweight
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On another question regarding Odium's Intent. Does anyone else feel that it's very ... generic?

I mean if we look at the other shards that we know the Intents of we have:

Preservation: Wants to preserve others.

Ruin: Wants to destroy things.

Devotion: Wants people to be devoted

Honor: Wants people to be honorable.

 

All of these either want their enact their description upon others, like preservation or ruin, or want other to act according to their description, like honor or devotion. 

Odium, being essentially hatred stands out, because his intent seems to be to just destroy the other shards.

But desctruction was allready ruins thing.

He even uses a race that he basically created using his own kind of magic, the voidspren, in order to destroy things.

Which is basically the exact same thing that ruin did with his inquisitors and kolloss. 

I don't know, to me odium feels like a pretty generic "evil god". And considering that he's supposed to be hatred he could have been so much more interesting as a nemesis. If his intent would be to bring others to be hatefull, similar to honor or devotion, he could be an illusive and somewhat sneaky bad guy. Sowing distrust and hatred between allies and friends, getting people to fight each other and destroy each other over petty reasons, then despair seeing what they did in rage. 

Now he's just another evil god that destroys stuff. Not exactly ground breaking.

 

Disclaimer: I still vastly enjoy Brandon's books, before anyone here feels defensive, and they are among my most favourite books. I was just a bit dissappointed with odium since I think that a shard symbolising hatred could have been much more interesting than what we've got.

 

Brandon has said Odium's is both the personification of hatred and aims to inspire hatred in others.

 

So he likely has more goals than just destroying the other shards- he probably wants to run the cosmere as his own personal hell afterwards, turning everyone against each other and, most importantly, having them despise him for doing it.

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