Endowment / Edgli and Vo

[ARARITA]

I was thinking about Endowment / Edgli and about Vo   and the timeline as we know it

 

was Edgli one of the 16 ? 

 

If she was - how long after the shattering did it take for her to go to Nathlis ?

 

and return Vo ?

 

would Vo's return tell us approximately when Edgli got there ? 

 

or just when she started to Return people ?

 

and if the later, why'd she start then ?

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

I believe it is the latter.

 

My personal theory is that she chose that moment (600 years before the events of Warbreaker) to start Returning people because something big had happened (or was going to happen) elsewhere in the Cosmere. I'm not absolutely sure about the relative timelines but I believe that Warbreaker happens at roughly the same time as Stormlight Archive (give or take a decade) which happens roughly at the same time as Wax&Wayne. 

Given that Nightblood was created during the Manywar, 300 years before Warbreaker that coincides with the ascension of Harmony (IMO the single most important Cosmere event since the shattering of Adonalsium).

 

The combination of two shard upsets the power balance in the Cosmere, so it's likely the triggering event for the overarching conflict covering all shardworlds (probably with Odium, but who knows, he might just be a red herring).

 

A bit rambling there, but the actual theory is that Endowment chose that moment to start Returning people since she knew that big stuff would be happening and she foresaw the existence of the Returned would lead to the creation of Nightblood, which she believed would be necessary (I mean, Brandon wrote an entire book basically just to introduce Nighblood before he appeared on Roshar, so we can be pretty sure he's going to be important, right?).

[natc]

Of course, Nalthis years aren't consistent with Scadrial years . . .

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

... or Roshar Years or Sel years, but unless and until Brandon gives us year lengths I'll be using earth years (except for Roshar, where 1 year = 1,1 Earth years).

It might result in some revisions on my part when we do receive this information, but unless the year lengths diverge vastly between planets, most theories based on a single calendar should remain viable.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

She started then, IMO, so that she could get Nightblood created, so that it could be used to kill Odium!

[Yata]

Maybe another "event" is what happens on Sel, it's a pretty important thing and it's before Mistborn trilogy.

after all we know the Elantrians were really Realmatic aware and they return to power may change the Cosmere's balance

[sh3nahz]

maybe the event was odium starting to splinter shards and his containment in the grater roshar system. endowment saw how effective having champions could be and how the honor blades and other shards reacted to odiums threat and that of other shards what it was done as self defence to protect the shard and its creations 

[Yata]

maybe the event was odium starting to splinter shards and his containment in the grater roshar system. endowment saw how effective having champions could be and how the honor blades and other shards reacted to odiums threat and that of other shards what it was done as self defence to protect the shard and its creations 

It can't be, all the events on Roshar are far more ancient than Vo's return... Vo's is quite recent event (unless Endowment thinked about for some thousands of years before come to a decision)

[Hemalurgist]

I think Edgli is using Returned to shape the people of Nalthis or at least the course of history for something (perhaps Endowment has something similar to what Preservation did in a grand master plan for the good of the cosmere or at least her planet/shard). 

 

Quotes talking about Returned coming back for a reason:

" One thing to note about the Returned coming back is that they dosee the future, but when they Return, they aren’t guaranteed to be able to change anything."

 

"She Returned because she didn’t want T’Telir to fall to the invaders she saw taking it after Bluefingers and the others caused their revolt. That was why she gathered the armies. While she didn’t succeed in her quest as well as Lightsong did, she did help out quite a bit."

I think it is probably endowment showing them the future. I think she chooses to show them certain things so that they will act in a way that furthers her interests (hopefully those are for the good), but I have no evidence for this. If she does show them things that will cause them to act in a way that furthers her interests than I think we can conclude that she wants T'Telir to remain strong for the time being. I am not certain if people return through out the rest of the planet, but if they do then she is likely able to have a significant impact on the course of history on Nalthis through Returned.

 

As to why and what she plans, I have no clue. I think it will something to do with events that haven't revealed themselves though. Probably the main conflict of the mistborn space trilogy. I don't think it has to do with Odium as I think he is a red herring. And I think it is more complex than simply nightblood as she is still returning people (I am assuming she has control on her Returns, but I have no evidence).

[MoS03]

It's tough to line up story lines into reason for Endowment to do any specific thing for Cosmere reasons. As far as I'm aware, the only WoB we have is that WaxEra takes place roughly the same time as SA, and (barring novellas) publication order has been roughly the same as the story order.

It was my understanding that Ruin and Preservation created the Scadrians after Yolen's humans, but not all of the Shards did that, some came upon planets that were already inhabited.

So, did Vo return when Endowment arrived, or some point after? If Endowment created these humans, why wait so long before granting rebirths and creating Returned? I'm of the opinion that Endowment came upon an inhabited planet, and began influencing it, Investing into it. Into the planet itself, in the form of the flowers, into each and every person, one Breath, and the Spiritweb changes to allow their offspring to receive a Breath in the future, and began creating Returned, consciously choosing certain people for certain reasons that is their own.

Or, she created all of these humans, and due to population growths caused by societal progress has now invested so heavily into this planet, that certain side effects have begun occurring. The Returned, namely.

I once read a theory that the more powerful a Cosmere entity is, by correlation their cognitive and spiritual powers increase to some proportion as well? Perhaps after a certain level of Investment, Endowment just wasn't smart enough to fully grasp the millennia of potential implications? Perhaps this Shard can choose who it Returns, but still has some kind of spiritual quota?

I understand Endowment's roll on Nalthis to an extent, but the motive for doing so? Is it purely a need to function as it's Intent decrees? Or is there another motive I haven't grasped? It seems like Endowment is destined to splinter themselves via population growth. Perhaps that's why, as far as I'm aware, Odium hasn't interfered with Nalthis yet? No threat, crush later?

Note: I am roughly 3 Cosmere works behind, so if any of this has been explained in some way, oops.

[Eccentric Hero]

It's tough to line up story lines into reason for Endowment to do any specific thing for Cosmere reasons. As far as I'm aware, the only WoB we have is that WaxEra takes place roughly the same time as SA, and (barring novellas) publication order has been roughly the same as the story order.

Chronology - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

 

 

I once read a theory that the more powerful a Cosmere entity is, by correlation their cognitive and spiritual powers increase to some proportion as well? Perhaps after a certain level of Investment, Endowment just wasn't smart enough to fully grasp the millennia of potential implications?

I don't think that's how it works. Secret History should give better insights.

[MoS03]

So yes, novella's not withstanding, the chronological order is roughly the publication order. We have "roughly the same time", "X years later/earlier" where X is a large portion of years. At no point is anything concrete (obviously, but as more information is released, we can nail things down more), and so exactly when, down to the year, we often don't know.

For all we know, the last desolation was put on hold because Odium had somewhere else to be, doing something we don't even know about yet. My ultimate point was, I doubt Endowment is doing much with Cosmere wide consequences, and that due to her Ideal/Intent, isn't perceived as anything but small potatoes. Some of the Nalthians (obviously) may be inclined to participate in other events off Nalthis, but that isn't necessarily at the behest of Endowment.

Edit: I'll be reading the last 2 Wax books sometime within the next couple weeks, along with SH. I'm excited!!

Edited April 11, 2016 by MoS03

[Oudeis]

For whatever minor relevance this might add, I did ask on the Bands tour, and Endowment's concerns are mainly constrained to her planet. She has few broader plans for the Cosmere as a whole. (I cannot recall if his answer confirmed her gender, though I think it's been confirmed elsewhere.)

[Athanat0s]

I'm rereading Warbreaker at the moment... I think Vo was returned as a response to Odium shattering Honor... I think Endowment only sends a few Returned with greater purpose (like the 5 scholars to jump start the practice of awakening) and the rest (aside from their personal mission) are mainly there so that the people know how what to expect from Returned. 

[RShara]

12 hours ago, Athanat0s said:

I'm rereading Warbreaker at the moment... I think Vo was returned as a response to Odium shattering Honor... I think Endowment only sends a few Returned with greater purpose (like the 5 scholars to jump start the practice of awakening) and the rest (aside from their personal mission) are mainly there so that the people know how what to expect from Returned. 

That's an interesting theory, but sadly the timelines don't match up. Vo returned perhaps 1000 years ago, and Honor died somewhere close to 2000-2500 years ago.

Warbreaker takes place between 25-300 years before WoK according to Brandon.

The Manywar takes place ~300 years before Warbreaker and Vo Returned something like 300 years before the Manywar, according to the story Hoid told Siri.

Honor died a little after the Recreance, which was around 2500 years ago, if I remember correctly.

[Wandering Investor]

On 7/29/2018 at 3:07 PM, RShara said:

That's an interesting theory, but sadly the timelines don't match up. Vo returned perhaps 1000 years ago, and Honor died somewhere close to 2000-2500 years ago.

Warbreaker takes place between 25-300 years before WoK according to Brandon.

The Manywar takes place ~300 years before Warbreaker and Vo Returned something like 300 years before the Manywar, according to the story Hoid told Siri.

Honor died a little after the Recreance, which was around 2500 years ago, if I remember correctly.

That's pretty similar to how I understand it. Important to note that Roshar is specified to have longer years, 1.1. I'm not aware of any notes about Nathis' year length, so its hard to line the two of them up, but that's ~2000-2500 Rosharan years vs ~600-900 Nalthis years, so the death of Honor likely happened a significant amount of time before the return of Vo. 

[Naurock]

On 7/29/2018 at 4:07 PM, RShara said:

Warbreaker takes place between 25-300 years before WoK according to Brandon.

Wow. [OB stuff]

Spoiler

Vivenna/Azure has aged well. I wonder what Heightening she will be at the end of Nightblood. 5th Heightening gives agelessness, sounds kinda necessary for that to line up.

What was she doing for so long? Playing Pogs?

[tmnsquirtle]

12 hours ago, Naurock said:

Wow. [OB stuff]

  Reveal hidden contents

Vivenna/Azure has aged well. I wonder what Heightening she will be at the end of Nightblood. 5th Heightening gives agelessness, sounds kinda necessary for that to line up.

What was she doing for so long? Playing Pogs?

Well....

Spoiler

She studied the blade.

*tips fedora* M'nightblood!

Edited August 28, 2018 by tmnsquirtle

[Quantus]

Im guessing she will have gotten to the 6th heightening at least, the Instinctive Awakening seems like it would be all kinds of necessary for the sort of experimentation she was likely up to.

[Weltall]

On 8/7/2018 at 9:09 PM, Wandering Investor said:

That's pretty similar to how I understand it. Important to note that Roshar is specified to have longer years, 1.1. I'm not aware of any notes about Nathis' year length, so its hard to line the two of them up, but that's ~2000-2500 Rosharan years vs ~600-900 Nalthis years, so the death of Honor likely happened a significant amount of time before the return of Vo. 

We know that a Nalthian week is a bit longer than a normal Earth week (eight days versus seven) and we have Vivenna mentally running the numbers at the end of Warbreaker and noting that Vasher needs fifty Breaths a year to survive, so the end result is that their year shouldn't be drastically different from an Earth year.

On 8/27/2018 at 8:08 PM, Naurock said:

Wow. [OB stuff]

  Reveal hidden contents

Vivenna/Azure has aged well. I wonder what Heightening she will be at the end of Nightblood. 5th Heightening gives agelessness, sounds kinda necessary for that to line up.

What was she doing for so long? Playing Pogs?

Given that Nightblood is planned to be the last book in the timeline before SA begins and it's a direct sequel to Warbreaker, the gap between Warbreaker and Way of Kings isn't likely to be a terribly long one. OB Spoiler

Spoiler

Even if Vivenna has the exact same Breath reserve as 'Azure' that she did when we last saw her in Warbreaker, that puts her at the Second Heightening. We know that the First is enough to extend one's lifespan by a decade or more so the second would push it out a bit more still. Combine that with the gap between appearances probably being closer to decades than centuries and it works out pretty well. We also know that with practice she could do a lot more with her fragmentary Divine Breath than just change her hair color and length, including altering her apparent age.

But yeah, she's probably gotten more Breath since then, even if she didn't expend any personally in the creation of her sword. The Awakenings she's implied to do with the Wall Guard would require a good reserve to draw on.

I also now have a mental image of Vivenna trying to teach Nightblood how to play pogs and it is glorious. xD

Edited August 29, 2018 by Weltall

[Naurock]

45 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I also now have a mental image of Vivenna trying to teach Nightblood how to play pogs and it is glorious. xD

"Colors, Nightblood! How many times do I have to tell you, YOU ARE NOT A SLAMMER!! I have to go buy more Pogs now..."

- "I'm better than any slammer you can find, none can DESTROY as I can! Go find me more, I like this game. Think Vasher will join anytime soon? I can show him how great I am too..."

[Wreith]

58 minutes ago, Weltall said:

We know that a Nalthian week is a bit longer than a normal Earth week (eight days versus seven)

The Nalthis week is seven days long
If the Returned don't get a new breath on the first day of the new week (8th day), they consume theirs and die again.
 

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250-warbreaker-annotations/#e6776
 

Brandon Sanderson

Siri Enters and Sees Returned

Just a little note here. Returned live for eight days without a Breath, though the week is seven days long in this world. Why? Well, I figured that they'd need an extra day as leeway. On day seven, they start to grow weak and sluggish. If they don't consume a Breath, their body will consume their own on the eighth day of their life, and they'll die again.

In some parts of this world, Returned aren't worshipped, but instead seen as something akin to vampires. They draw in Breath to survive, and need a supply of people to feed off of. They tend to wear black, since it's the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things.#returned

 

edit: is there some secret to including WoBs from Arcanum in a post or do people just use quotes?
 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Wreith

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, Wreith said:

edit: is there some secret to including WoBs from Arcanum in a post or do people just use quotes?

You use the quote box to embed it, but hit the "Copy" button on top right of the WoB and it'll be nicely formatted and include the source as a footnote:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Siri Enters and Sees Returned

Just a little note here. Returned live for eight days without a Breath, though the week is seven days long in this world. Why? Well, I figured that they'd need an extra day as leeway. On day seven, they start to grow weak and sluggish. If they don't consume a Breath, their body will consume their own on the eighth day of their life, and they'll die again.

In some parts of this world, Returned aren't worshipped, but instead seen as something akin to vampires. They draw in Breath to survive, and need a supply of people to feed off of. They tend to wear black, since it's the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things.

source