Time for a Shadows of Hell re-read - anyone else wanna comb for clues?

[Senor Feesh]

I doubt there's much more we can realistically get from Threnody at this point, but recent releases (and some of the Realmatic, and larger Cosmere implications raised) have made me want to revisit it. Plus I think I've only read it the once anyway, so it can't hurt. Anyone else fancy having another poke, see if we can't raise some new points?

 

Of course, please keep any time-sensitive spoilers to the relevant boards (I'm being as vague as possible but it's probably obvious still what I'm alluding to. Just don't track any spoilers in here please, tagged or otherwise until the blanket-ban is lifted).

[Platysaur]

I actually just read it last night for the first time. I'll be glad to discuss if more people come in, and if I remember to look back at this!

[Guy Srinivasan]

"She swept her knife... Her knife passed through the shade with a slight tugging feeling, creating a shower of bright white sparks that sprayed out of the shade."

Sounds suspiciously like a Shardblade passing through a living creature, except for the sparks bit. Similar mechanics?

[Argent]

Somebody somewhere not too long ago asked a question (which I might be misremembering severely) about whether the slight resistance Shardbearers feel when they hit a living thing is a sign that the Blade is doing damage in a different Realm, and I believe Brandon confirmed it. But I am remembering it very loosely, so take with a grain of salt.

[Yata]

Somebody somewhere not too long ago asked a question (which I might be misremembering severely) about whether the slight resistance Shardbearers feel when they hit a living thing is a sign that the Blade is doing damage in a different Realm, and I believe Brandon confirmed it. But I am remembering it very loosely, so take with a grain of salt.

Yes He said something about "It's what happen when you cut from the physical into the other realms"

[Pagerunner]

I re-read it last night. A few things jumped out at me, so I'm gonna throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see if any of it sticks. Please feel free to tear these apart - mostly, I'm just spitballing, so I won't take it personal.

 

Timeline. I'm trying to reconcile the time line of this story with Nazh and his actions in the rest of the Cosmere. We definitely know that Nazh was born prior to Mistborn. But he swears with "Shadows" and has a silver knife, which indicates (to me) that he comes from Hell, not from Homeland. Silence's grandparents were the among first to land on Hell, so let's generously say that SSFH happened 70 years after the first Forescouts went there. If SSFH is after Mistborn chronologically, that means that the Forescouts can only have settled Hell, at most, 70 years before Mistborn 1, most likely much less (depending on the when Nazh and Silence were born). So, I'm not even sure if SSFH happens before or after (or concurrent with) the original Mistborn trilogy. But, we have confirmation that the story happens in the "back half" of the Cosmere sequence, prior to Stormlight. Does that mean that Mistborn is also in the back half of the Cosmere sequence? What is the first half, anyways? Dragonsteel, White Sand, Elantris?

Also, Hoid had to be somewhere else during this story. What would tie him down, so he couldn't even stop in for a cameo? What if he had to be on Scadrial? What if SSFH happens concurrently with Mistborn?

 

Mistborn: Secret History.

Well... spoilers.

Assuming SSFH happens around the same time as Mistborn, it seems like the reason the Shades are more active is because people are moving in on their territory. They're getting driven out by the Fortfolk and all their silver, so they're setting out on the Cognitive Realm to find other places.

 

Since the Elantrians are used to seeing Shades, but Kelsier doesn't see one in Mistborn, it causes me to think that Threnody is closer to Sel than to Scadrial.

 

Homeland. Since the book was inspired partly by the Puritan settlement of the New World, my original interpretation was that the Evil was a social or religious event (possibly supernatural in nature) that had occurred on the mainland, and the Forescouts had fled to another continent to live under their own laws. I also thought the Evil had been responsible for the Shades; a mass Cognition that changed the very land the Forescouts went to. The second read-through, however, raised some questions. The Evil killed; Silence states that explicitly. It could be Spanish-Inquisition-like executions, or it could be Alderaan-like destruction of a planet. Much vaguer. The Shades (and Hell) had existed well before the Evil; the Forescouts knew it was Hell before they went there.

 

So, I need to amend my interpretation. Now, I think Homeland is gone, not just hostile to the Forescouts and their descendants. And even though there are clear allusions in the text to travel across the sea (A major fort is Lastport, and it's referred to as the most powerful fort on "this continent"), I'm not sure that Homeland and Hell are actually on the same world? We've seen large Shardpools before - the Purelake on Roshar is a huge Perpendicularity, and three members of the 17th Shard used it to Worldhop. What if the Forescouts Worldhopped on accident, winding up on another world (Threnody) while leaving behind their own world (Homeland)? Heck, there are very few references to how the Forescouts and later settlers arrived; maybe they knew they were Worldhopping, and just didn't mention it to their descendants? (Since we only get Silence's point-of-view, it may have just been that her grandparents didn't think it necessary to mention to her all the details of how they got from Homeland to Hell.) And, as one final point in this rambling section, they never refer to their homeland as "Threnody." There is "Homeland," and there is "Hell." The name of the planet is only mentioned in the author's introduction.

So, to sum it all up, Homeland is destroyed, it might be another Shardworld. (If you look ahead to the next point, it might even be a major Shardworld.)

 

Justice. "Justice died in Homeland." This helped drive my previous interpretation of Homeland, that it was a religious or social corruption that denied justice to those who left to Hell. Discarding that interpretation, it takes on a very different meaning. Since we're hyper-aware of anything that might sound like a Shard, I'm sure this jumped out to a lot of us. But, then, we learned there was no Shard on Threnody, so this couldn't be a Shard of Justice. But if Homeland is a different world than Threnody, a Shard of Justice could have died in Homeland, while the inhabitants of the world escaped to Threnody. (The fact that I recently proposed Justice as a new Shard in another thread is immaterial to the topic. Please move along.)

 

Concrete. Is this an anachronism, for a 1600-s American analogue? Silence uses it to mount silver rings into the ground around her waystop. Could it have come from another Shardworld?

 

God Beyond. Silence mentions "old books," which talk of the God Beyond and call the "this land the home of the damned." The God Beyond is a concept going across the Cosmere; I wonder what else is in these books. It might give Hell a broader context throughout the Cosmere; it might not just be the souls of people from Homeland, but from all the fallen worlds. (Who was just wondering if svrakiss were Shades?)

 

Questions for Brandon. If anyone sees these before going to a Calamity signing, here are some questions that I think would be fruitful (unless they've been answered and I've missed them, in which case please point me towards the answer and ask something else):

1. When does SSFH happen with respect to Secret History?
2. How long after the Forescouts landed was Nazh born?
3. Is Homeland on Threnody?
4. How did Silence have concrete? It seems out of place technologically.

[IndigoAjah]

"She swept her knife... Her knife passed through the shade with a slight tugging feeling, creating a shower of bright white sparks that sprayed out of the shade."

Sounds suspiciously like a Shardblade passing through a living creature, except for the sparks bit. Similar mechanics?

Realmatically, the exact opposite to a Shardblade attack is occurring, right? A shard blade exists essentially on the spiritual plane and cuts there (the soul, hence it's effect on living things) but also damages in the physical realm (slicing through all matter bar shardblade and other blades). Silver exists on te physical and would cut there but also damages in the spiritual plane. Now, blades do this as they are a tiny splinter of a Shard and thus quite invested, is silver invested too to have this effect? Edited February 28, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[Yata]

Realmatically, the exact opposite to a Shardblade attack is occurring, right? A shard blade exists essentially on the spiritual plane and cuts there (the soul, hence it's effect on living things) but also damages in the physical realm (slicing through all matter bar shardblade and other blades). Silver exists on te physical and would cut there but also damages in the spiritual plane. Now, blades do this as they are a tiny splinter of a Shard and thus quite invested, is silver invested too to have this effect?

Actually they are both the same thing.

A Shardblade is something in the physical (I don't say more to avoid Spoiler) and cuts Souls through the Cognitive.

An average Threnody's silver knife is a physical toll and when cuts a Shades, cuts something in the Cognitive Realm.

[Jondesu]

Actually they are both the same thing.

A Shardblade is something in the physical (I don't say more to avoid Spoiler) and cuts Souls through the Cognitive.

An average Threnody's silver knife is a physical toll and when cuts a Shades, cuts something in the Cognitive Realm.

I believe we have a WoB saying Shardblades cut on all 3 Realms, actually. I don't know if that would be true of the silver knives (I suspect not).

jW

[IndigoAjah]

Inspired by His Dark Materials, do you think you can use a Shardblade to cut someone else's Nahel Bond?

[Yata]

I believe we have a WoB saying Shardblades cut on all 3 Realms, actually. I don't know if that would be true of the silver knives (I suspect not).

jW

Actually I remember "Shardblade cut in the Soul, Nightblood cuts on all three realm"... But I may be wrong

[Samaldin]

Actually I remember "Shardblade cut in the Soul, Nightblood cuts on all three realm"... But I may be wrong

I remember it like that as well

 

I´ve read SSFH yesterday for the first time and started to wonder if Odium could have something to do with the shades. My theory right now is something along the lines that Odium helped create or form Threnody so that the shades take form there. Their actions seem motivated by hate to me (hate against blood, fire and fast movements). Odium hates everyone and everything so it would make sense that he wants everything to suffer (or die). With shades around you can´t warm yourself with a fire if you´re cold, you can´t run from danger and even fighting back is hard if you can´t spill blood.

 

The idea that Homeland isn´t on Threnody actually fits nicely into my headcanon, since it´s known that there are no shards on Threnody. Odium killed everyone there and then left to kill something else, thereby accidently creating an empty world for the settlers. Theres only one thing i´m not sure about, would a magic system (in this case shades) still work if the shard left the world?

[IndigoAjah]

I remember it like that as well

I´ve read SSFH yesterday for the first time and started to wonder if Odium could have something to do with the shades. My theory right now is something along the lines that Odium helped create or form Threnody so that the shades take form there. Their actions seem motivated by hate to me (hate against blood, fire and fast movements). Odium hates everyone and everything so it would make sense that he wants everything to suffer (or die). With shades around you can´t warm yourself with a fire if you´re cold, you can´t run from danger and even fighting back is hard if you can´t spill blood.

The idea that Homeland isn´t on Threnody actually fits nicely into my headcanon, since it´s known that there are no shards on Threnody. Odium killed everyone there and then left to kill something else, thereby accidently creating an empty world for the settlers. Theres only one thing i´m not sure about, would a magic system (in this case shades) still work if the shard left the world?

Depends how much he invested maybe?

[Farnsworth]

I think that shades might be a bit like a dead person who refuses to die, but instead moves around in the cognitive realm (trying to avoid spoilers). Only, they have a slight physical presence as well. That's why dead people killed by shades become shades.

[MikeBridgeFour]

This is my first post. Just read Shadows for Silence and had a few thoughts to share.

Threnody is not a shardworld but maybe it used to be. Once a Shard has invested a world, it is anchored to that world. To leave, the Shard must pull its investiture back into itself, apparently not an easy task. Maybe a Shard left Threnody and its removal is responsible for the shades somehow.

My other thought is on the three rules. The one thing that links the three rules, to me at least, is survival. The basic survival instinct is known as fight or flight. These could be seen as drawing blood or running. Also one of the most basic survival skills is building a fire.

If the three rules are based on survival, then maybe there was a Shard on the world before, the Shard that Brandon has hinted at, the one who just wants to survive. Maybe this Shard is Survival or Self-preservation or some similar intent. A Shard like that seems the most likely to pull up roots and run if faced with a dangerous situation. The shades could be splinters that became twisted when their Shard left them. Or rather the original shades may have been with most of the current ones their creations.

These are just rough ideas in my head. I may be completely off. Let me know what you think.

[Pagerunner]

This is my first post. Just read Shadows for Silence and had a few thoughts to share.

Threnody is not a shardworld but maybe it used to be. Once a Shard has invested a world, it is anchored to that world. To leave, the Shard must pull its investiture back into itself, apparently not an easy task. Maybe a Shard left Threnody and its removal is responsible for the shades somehow.

My other thought is on the three rules. The one thing that links the three rules, to me at least, is survival. The basic survival instinct is known as fight or flight. These could be seen as drawing blood or running. Also one of the most basic survival skills is building a fire.

If the three rules are based on survival, then maybe there was a Shard on the world before, the Shard that Brandon has hinted at, the one who just wants to survive. Maybe this Shard is Survival or Self-preservation or some similar intent. A Shard like that seems the most likely to pull up roots and run if faced with a dangerous situation. The shades could be splinters that became twisted when their Shard left them. Or rather the original shades may have been with most of the current ones their creations.

These are just rough ideas in my head. I may be completely off. Let me know what you think.

 

First of all, welcome to the forum!

 

It's an interesting question you raise, whether or not there has ever been a Shard on Threnody. Yeah, we know there's not one there currently, but maybe there used to be one. I'm not sure anyone has raised that thought, before.

 

As for the Survival Shard, it's something that the forum has taken and run with too far (kind of like the "force" that opposed Adonalsium and the Lord Ruler's descendants, both things that Brandon gave cryptic answers about and later said people read too much into them). The Shard wants to hide and survive, but that is not its Intent. See here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52009-bands-of-mourning-release-party/page-2#entry392615

I asked if the Shard that just wants to survive has something like the intent of fear. Brandon replied that that shard's intent is only tangentially related to what's going on.

That shard is well aware of what is n going on in the Cosmere, and is smart enough to try and just get away from it all.

[MikeBridgeFour]

While the Shard that Brandon mentioned not having an intent that relates to its hiding and trying to survive does not mean that there is not one that has an intent related to survival, I don't think that Survival or Self-Preservation have the same kind of feel as the other Shards that we have seen.

 

I still see the connection between the three rules and survival. Maybe it is simply that shades are drawn to people that break these rules because they associate these actions as signs of life, maybe the most primal base actions of people trying to live (run or fight, or build a fire because, to quote Survivor "fire is life"). If the shades are souls stuck in a limbo between life and death, unable to move on for some reason, they might simply being trying to get back to the world of the living since they can't reach the land of the dead. They wither people because they are sucking in the souls of their victims trying to strengthen their own.  

[Farnsworth]

This is a weird idea...

 

Maybe the shades are like Kelsier after he died, and they somehow want all people to die and become shades like them, so they can have new people in the cognitive realm? That would explain their hate of things related to survival.

[Havoc]

Somebody somewhere not too long ago asked a question (which I might be misremembering severely) about whether the slight resistance Shardbearers feel when they hit a living thing is a sign that the Blade is doing damage in a different Realm, and I believe Brandon confirmed it. But I am remembering it very loosely, so take with a grain of salt.

That was me! The specific quote is:

Q: On Threnody, Silence notices a 'tug' when cutting a wraith with her silver knife. Is is analogous to the tug a Shardbearer feels when cutting people with a Shardblade, i.e. you always feel it when cutting something from the Cognitive Realm while in the Physical Realm?

A: Yes, that is a valid analogy.

[Erunion]

So I recently reread Shadows for Silence after rereading Mistborn Secret History. Spoilers for both of those inside the tags. 

Nazh is shocked that Kelsier is a cognitive shadow, and mentions how Shades take time, effort and ceremony to make. Which made me wonder: Why would anyone WANT to make a Threnodite Shade? Is Nazh from the past, and have shades changed from how they used to be? Is he from Silence's future, and are Shades now under control? It's all very interesting...

[Farnsworth]

How about this:

The Forescouts are other inhabitants of Hell are tough, and probably would do what Kelsier did and refuse to die, becoming a shade.

However, Kelsier is even tougher than the Forescouts, so it's easy for him to become a shade.

Threnody is full of Shades, and they all live in the forest, making the forest a 'predator', like Silence says.

When somebody is killed by a shade, their spiritual aspect goes away for some reason, and they are visible, etc.

Nazh is shocked that it took Kelsier less time, effort, and ceremony than the Forescouts, who he thought where to toughest people he knew.

[Landis963]

How about this:

The Forescouts are other inhabitants of Hell are tough, and probably would do what Kelsier did and refuse to die, becoming a shade.

However, Kelsier is even tougher than the Forescouts, so it's easy for him to become a shade.

Threnody is full of Shades, and they all live in the forest, making the forest a 'predator', like Silence says.

When somebody is killed by a shade, their spiritual aspect goes away for some reason, and they are visible, etc.

Nazh is shocked that it took Kelsier less time, effort, and ceremony than the Forescouts, who he thought where to toughest people he knew.

 

Kel kinda dunked himself in a Shardpool though,and was already a highly Invested individual.  It probably takes a bit more effort to become a cognitive shadow without one of those handy.  

[Blackhoof]

So is a Shade a Cognitive shadow with no Spiritual Aspect, or vice versa?

[Landis963]

So is a Shade a Cognitive shadow with no Spiritual Aspect, or vice versa?

More probably, it's something wrong with their physical aspect (wouldn't stick around and do the withering thing otherwise).

[Pagerunner]

Maybe this is only news to me, I just noticed that crandonsanderson.com has an extensive FAQ section. A lot of questions are lifted straight from the Theoryland database, but I figured I'd check and see if I could find any new stuff, and, hey, what do you know? Confirmation of SSFH's place in the timeline. It's after Warbreaker.