Lounge

[aeromancer]

2 hours ago, Ernei said:

I honestly don't see a reason why Jedi don't use blasters too.

"Your father’s lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age." -Obi-Wan Kenobi

The true weapon of a Jedi is not, of course, his saber but the force. The lightsaber is a means to focus the force, especially since making a lightsaber is a delicate process which usually requires a force trance. The Jedi is a guardian of the peace. The saber is not a weapon of war, but of peace and a symbol of that peace. A Jedi with a blaster is a threat, a Jedi with a lightsaber hilt is a guardian of the peace.

So, why don't Sith use blasters, then? There's not really a good reason, aside from hubris.

[Djarskublar]

3 hours ago, Ernei said:

Never mind that Kenobi used a blaster to kill Grievous

Honestly, a sword is as much a symbol of war as any other weapon. Claiming otherwise is trying to cover the holes once they are already there (which is OK, nobody likes uncovered holes). Also, you can keep the lightsaber - perhaps a short one, like the yellow one Ahsoka used - to focus the Force and still have a blaster. A blaster in the hands of Jedi should not be clumsy at all. Shooting from starship's guns was perfectly fine, so why not from a blaster?...

The real reason? It's easier to keep the characters from breaking the plot by being overpowered. I mean, the Force is already a huge advantage, and having swords that they use with extreme finesse (canon wise, anyway. I used to fence, and I can confidently say that fight choreography in media is terrible most of the time). Also, I imagine that with all the restrictions placed on them, the Jedi in charge just subconsciously wanted to get up close and personal when they kill something... Venting, you know? That joke aside, they do seem like the kind of people whose philosophy considers close combat, especially with the 'sword,' to be more honorable. Besides that, if they have a gun, they can get around their most important weakness. If you surround a Jedi at a fair distance, they will likely get hit before they can reach you simply because there are hard limits to how fast you can deflect incoming fire. If they can shoot back, you are in more trouble. The main weakness of Jedi is their relatively limited mobility compared to the sheer numbers they are frequently asked to face. Limitations are better than more powers, after all . Dogfights, on the other hand, are a much more even playing field.

That first saber fight between Vader and Kenobi was laughable. Their props were delicate, so they couldn't do more than tap the lights they were using together gently. It has gotten progressively better to the point where the Clone Wars is actually palatable. I could go on for a long time on fight choreography, but I can say that I have only ever seen one fight sequence in any medium that truly impressed me. The second episode of the Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash anime has a truly superb fight scene. It is a little gory as fair warning, but just some blood, really. It has everything that most fights lack. The 2 sides are actually trying to kill each other, rather than the bad guys jumping on the heroes swords, and the heroes inexperience is plainly shown; terrain is clearly considered since one character slips in the mud; the slashes are actually trying to hit the other party and the attacks actually make sense, rather than just hitting swords together; and, from an entertainment perspective, the best part of it is that it's intense -- you can feel the stakes and emotions of people forced to kill for the first time just to be able to eat. Many things just kind of sweep the trauma of killing for the first time under the rug to get on with the story, and that bothers me on a fundamental level. My only criticism of the sequence is that they don't all rush in at once and have done with it, especially at one part, but it was done better than many fights where people take turns attacking since the fledgling mage casts a couple of spells at the enemy while others kept them basically in place.

That turned out much longer than I was hoping... *realizes that this may be one of the longest posts in the thread and feels mildly guilty*

TL;DR is that they can't use blasters from an authorial perspective, since with the Force helping them be more accurate and having a Lightsaber to deflect incoming fire, they would lose a lot of their important limitations.

[industrialistDragon]

11 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I can say that I have only ever seen one fight sequence in any medium that truly impressed me

Have you seen the anime Le Chevalier de Eon? I thought it did well for realistic fight scenes (well, until Lea comes out swinging, but that's half the fun. At least it's clear they're trying). Note also that I only ever had one semester's worth of a half-assed fencing class in undergrad, so.

[Robinski]

3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

they don't all rush in at once and have done with it

Yes, the join the 'attack queue', ugh.

3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

realizes that this may be one of the longest posts in the thread and feels mildly guilty

Lol - in this thread maybe, but midsize compared to many - as you will discover, so nothing to worry about  

Edited April 1, 2017 by Robinski

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

5 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

... terrain is clearly considered ...

like in: "You can't win. I have the high ground."?

The thing that bothers me most about (a lot of) fight scenes is when the protagonist gets knocked around for most of the fight, takes a lot of heavy hits until they're a  bloody pulp and then gets in a single, lucky, low-to-mid-level hit and suddenly they supposedly won the fight. Do all their antagonists have glass jaws or something?

[aeromancer]

On 3/31/2017 at 9:50 PM, Djarskublar said:

TL;DR is that they can't use blasters from an authorial perspective, since with the Force helping them be more accurate and having a Lightsaber to deflect incoming fire, they would lose a lot of their important limitations.

This is true for basically all Jedi, barring Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi, as established over the expanded universe, hates blasters. There's actually a hilarious clip from Clone Wars Season 7 (which was never released, but the test footage for six episodes were, somehow) which has Anakin dual-wielding blasters and fighting through a droid ship while Obi-Wan just watches and makes comments. Obi-Wan does use starship guns, but he hates flying so he tries avoiding it as much as possible. And yes, he does use a blaster to kill Grevious. His words. "So uncivilized."

Obi-Wan Kenobi is also probably the greatest Jedi to ever live. I have no bias on the subject whatsoever. Not greatest Force-wielder, mind you, that's up for grabs between a lot of people, i.e., Jacen Solo, Revan, Luke Skywalker, Cade Skywalker, etc.

20 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

The thing that bothers me most about (a lot of) fight scenes is when the protagonist gets knocked around for most of the fight, takes a lot of heavy hits until they're a  bloody pulp and then gets in a single, lucky, low-to-mid-level hit and suddenly they supposedly won the fight. Do all their antagonists have glass jaws or something?

Yes. Card-carrying villains must be able to be taken out by a protagonist with a lucky one-shot. They also must be painfully obvious that they're evil and have five-minute monologue ready at ten seconds' notice.

Realistic fight scenes, unfortunately, make for terrible drama and suspense. A true fight is over before the fight starts.

Edited April 2, 2017 by aeromancer

[Djarskublar]

16 hours ago, Ernei said:

This is what often bothers me with stories that have a lot of mages - most of the times these mages just seem to have forgotten to take their creativity with them when they were leaving home in the morning.

Pretty much. This is basically the only reason that will get me to put down a book, normally. It's the reason I dislike Harry Potter and the like.

21 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Realistic fight scenes, unfortunately, make for terrible drama and suspense. A true fight is over before the fight starts.

Bringing Sun Tzu into this?

I will say, in single combat this doesn't always hold true. It is very similar to chess in that regard. One person has a higher probability of winning, but it isn't guaranteed if the skill level is similar. Spur of the moment decisions and random chance make a difference.

On 4/1/2017 at 1:35 AM, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

like in: "You can't win. I have the high ground."?

Naw, they ambush a goblin by a river. The ground by it was slick and muddy, and one of the characters slips in it. They also force it up against the river so it can't escape. I guess by terrain I more mean footing.

[aeromancer]

15 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Bringing Sun Tzu into this?

I will say, in single combat this doesn't always hold true. It is very similar to chess in that regard. One person has a higher probability of winning, but it isn't guaranteed if the skill level is similar. Spur of the moment decisions and random chance make a difference.

I will quote 'Art of War' given any decent opportunity, yes. It's kind of frustrating that Sun Tzu doesn't really have anything to say about guerrilla warfare, and there's a lot that can be disregarded within 'Art of War' (the chapter on fire, for example) but it's still a must read for everything else. I especially love the chapter on spies. I've read Go Rin No Sho for writing single combat, but that was a while ago. Single combat, as you say, is left to chance a lot more often, though (speaking of Go RIn No Sho) the duel between Miyamoto Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro is an example of when the fight was won long before it started. I'd also recommend reading the first chapter of Malcolm Gladwell's David and Goliath for similar situations.

Funny you should use chess as an example, though. I played a game yesterday were I won in essentially eight moves. Not actually eight moves, but after eight moves I was in a winning position and the rest of the game was just execution. (I was white playing Queen's Gambit Accepted, in case you were wondering.) In chess, it is impossible to predict the winner from just the players, but a Grandmaster-level player (which I am nowhere near) can usually predict the winner from after a few moves in.

[Djarskublar]

4 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I will quote 'Art of War' given any decent opportunity, yes. It's kind of frustrating that Sun Tzu doesn't really have anything to say about guerrilla warfare, and there's a lot that can be disregarded within 'Art of War' (the chapter on fire, for example) but it's still a must read for everything else. I especially love the chapter on spies. I've read Go Rin No Sho for writing single combat, but that was a while ago. Single combat, as you say, is left to chance a lot more often, though (speaking of Go RIn No Sho) the duel between Miyamoto Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro is an example of when the fight was won long before it started. I'd also recommend reading the first chapter of Malcolm Gladwell's David and Goliath for similar situations.

Funny you should use chess as an example, though. I played a game yesterday were I won in essentially eight moves. Not actually eight moves, but after eight moves I was in a winning position and the rest of the game was just execution. (I was white playing Queen's Gambit Accepted, in case you were wondering.) In chess, it is impossible to predict the winner from just the players, but a Grandmaster-level player (which I am nowhere near) can usually predict the winner from after a few moves in.

I appreciated the reference, and thought you might be a bit happier knowing it wasn't lost on us. I know I appreciate it when people get my very roundabout puns. That might happen around about now. (pun of course intended)

I am not that into chess, so I don't know specific play-styles. I have known how to play chess basically my whole life, though. I learned when I was three, and have been at least decent at it ever since. I don't stand up to an experienced, knowledgeable player or a computer, but random schmucks off the street are cake. I could probably beat a solid half of the people who know the rules of chess, even though I've played maybe 30-50 times in my life.

Actually, how I learned chess is an amusing story. My aunt was teaching me, and was of course guiding me towards a certain victory condition that she could see. I basically went along with bits of it, and then suddenly checkmated her well before she expected it. Given that I would have won either way, that was a victory for me

That said, I know enough about board games like chess or go to know that unless you're very good or very bad, you have a chance against anyone that isn't quite skilled. Even though the chance may be low, it exists. Besides that, as you said, even Grandmasters don't know who is going to win going into it. Just because they can tell after a few moves doesn't mean that the game was won before it began. This is basically semantic at this point, so I'll let it drop.

[Mandamon]

Wow--take a look at the Hugo nominations for this year!

http://www.tor.com/2017/04/04/2017-hugo-award-finalists-announced/#more-261832

Stats (from Patrick Nielsen Hayden)

3/4's of fiction by women

0/6 "Best Novel" finalists by white men

1/3 of fiction finalists by non-white

2/3 of "related works" by women

8/13 professional editor finalists are women

5/6 of Campbell finalists are women

Looking forward to reading the ones I haven't yet.

[kais]

That makes me so happy!

Also, Every Heart a Doorway was AMAZING. Everyone should read it!

[industrialistDragon]

Yeah, the shenanigans quotient on this year's ballot is quite pleasingly low. Tor.com is cleaning up in the short fiction categories and that's great because their stuff is amazing. Also “Our Talons Can Crush Galaxies” is a seriously good short story. 

 

ETA: In case anyone is curious, File 770 is on the scene with a shenanigans breakdown: http://file770.com/?p=34186&cpage=1

Edited April 4, 2017 by industrialistDragon

[Robinski]

I feel totally disenfranchised...

Seriously though, what a pleasing outcome. 

[neongrey]

49 minutes ago, industrialistDragon said:

Yeah, the shenanigans quotient on this year's ballot is quite pleasingly low. Tor.com is cleaning up in the short fiction categories and that's great because their stuff is amazing. Also “Our Talons Can Crush Galaxies” is a seriously good short story. 

 

ETA: In case anyone is curious, File 770 is on the scene with a shenanigans breakdown: http://file770.com/?p=34186&cpage=1

I'm actually no awarding Talons; I hated it, found it absolutely insufferable. That said, I seem to be in a minority there, so no skin off my back if it does well.

Otherwise-- looks like most of VD's ninnery seems to have been shut down. One in these categories-- not something I'm going to sweat, even if I'd prefer that not be there at all.

Too Like the Lightning is my top pick for novel, personally-- it's a little impenetrable which may hinder it from the spot, but I think the payoff is worth it. I still need to read a couple of these books in the category, so my ranking could change, and she's still got a spot with the Campbell nominees, so, we'll see. I've only barely had time to start Seven Surrenders...

I'm honestly a little concerned by Tor.com nearly sweeping the novella category both here and in the Nebulas but they've been one of the only publishers actually publishing them regularly, so I suppose it's unavoidable. Every Heart a Doorway was fine, really; I didn't love it but I can see why it speaks to people. I suspect Dream-Quest is going to be my number one though-- I really like Kij Johnson's work in general.

None of my picks on shorts made it, but there's an absolutely huge qualifying pool, so that's to be expected. We'll see what I think of these other pieces when I get to them.

Related work should probably go to Hurley, but we'll see if it does. Frankly, I think some of the submissions/publication analysis should have gotten a nod here, but it's not, so what can you do.

I have heard a lot of good about Monstress, but just haven't gotten around to reading it..

Long Form Dramatic is where I've finally seen everything in the category already and I have a clear ballot in mind; I liked... most of these works, but Arrival had me crying like a baby for twenty minutes solid.

 

[kais]

I have officially finished drafting TWD! Hooray! Now on to version one, fondly now referred to as 'Cleaning up gaping plot holes'.

[aeromancer]

14 hours ago, kais said:

I have officially finished drafting TWD! Hooray! Now on to version one, fondly now referred to as 'Cleaning up gaping plot holes'.

Have fun. That's easily my least favorite part when it comes to writing.

 

On an unrelated note, this: http://www.unboundworlds.com/cage-match-2017/. I think I'm a few days late on the final results, but this years whole tournament was just very weird. I didn't recognize half the characters (which is good, I suppose, more books for me to read). There were several victories that clearly should not have happened (Georgia Mason making it to the quarterfinals, despite the fact that mock-ups never had her using her gun, Harry Dresden somehow losing to Davi, and (like usual) the championship match being nothing but a glorified fan war). Yes. I'm sore about the fact that character I like lost because of fandom sizes. I like the concept, just please change the format so it's not a popularity contest. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[industrialistDragon]

9 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

As a Georgia Mason fan, I was stoked! I was really hoping for Seanan to get to write the snarkiest of snark-offs, Harry Dresden vs Georgia, but alas! 'twas not to be. Not using the gun is kind of Georgia's thing. Yes, she can shoot; one has to when one is living in the zombie apocalypse, but she's a journalist first and foremost. You'd've gotten your shootout if it had been her brother Shaun -- and that's probably why Georgia was in the match. I've followed the Cage-fight off an on for a while and most of the good ones don't end up with much actual fighting. That's what makes them fun.

As for a popularity contest -- how would you change it? I don't see the problem for something like this to be essentially a size-of-the-fandom contest. It's fun, it exposes people to new fiction and authors they might've missed otherwise, and it's generally-enjoyable short fanfiction. Don't like how it ended? Write your own 'fic to fix it. 

 

[aeromancer]

14 minutes ago, industrialistDragon said:

I've followed the Cage-fight off an on for a while and most of the good ones don't end up with much actual fighting. That's what makes them fun.

Yeah, I know. There was that time Inigo Montoya won (2015, I think?). I actually have read the Feed series. I had a friend get the series recommended to him (and he hated it), but he assumed that I might like it, so I ended up with his copy, which sat on my desk for a while until I was sufficiently bored to read another zombie novel - and it's good. Not exceptional, but it's a zombie book which actually has a human society in it which hasn't collapsed to decay. Take notes, people.

14 minutes ago, industrialistDragon said:

As for a popularity contest -- how would you change it? I don't see the problem for something like this to be essentially a size-of-the-fandom contest. It's fun, it exposes people to new fiction and authors they might've missed otherwise, and it's generally-enjoyable short fanfiction. Don't like how it ended? Write your own 'fic to fix it. 

There's not really a good fix, but maybe require an account to vote, so only people who are actually dedicated can vote. As opposed to, say, getting a group of friends to take thirty seconds to vote for your favorite.

And I don't believe in fanfic. I mean, well written fanfiction which stays true to the source material and intentions of the author, or an imaginative re-creation isn't bad and I wouldn't mind reading it, but that almost never happens. This contest, unfortunately, is no exception to bad fanfic, and I'm looking at you, Patrick Rothfuss, when I say that. Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear were both excellent books. The Slow Regard of Silent Things is a hidden gem. The short story you wrote for the Tom Bombadil / Davi match-up? No. That was horrible. I know Davi was horribly outmatched, but that still doesn't justify massacring Goldenberry's character to what you what it to be.

[industrialistDragon]

5 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

another zombie novel

I usually sell "Feed" as a political thriller that just happens to have incredibly well-researched zombies in it.  

 

Requiring signup just leads to a database full of dummy accounts, and more work policing it. Why does it matter so much whether or not the people voting in this fun weird little fanfic contest are "dedicated" or not? Ideally, yeah, it'd be great to only have the "real" fans have a say, but it's not really broken as it is. Who's to say those "groups of friends" just clicking for their buds don't turn into fans later? Trying to police voting in a contest of this nature is self-defeating at best and needless gatekeeping at worst. 

[Robinski]

16 minutes ago, Ernei said:

Just... would that actually make "Eragon" more popular? =.=

 

[industrialistDragon]

25 minutes ago, Ernei said:

, where the winner is determined by the number of fanfics

Lol, no, Ernei (though that would be cool for one of the fanfic sites to run!). Unbound World's Scifi fantasy Cage Match is a voting contest where characters from various popular science fiction and fantasy series are matched up against each other in a pretend "cage fight."  Each pair has a short "what would happen if" story written about it, usually by one of the authors whose characters are in the match. Fans then vote on who they think would win. It's good marketing for the authors and good fun for the fans, though, as aero pointed out, it does often come down to which author can rally more fans to come click buttons on the site. 

[kais]

3 hours ago, aeromancer said:

That's easily my least favorite part when it comes to writing.

It's my favorite! The story really starts to take shape!

[aeromancer]

6 hours ago, Ernei said:

Like, I'd love to kill Eragon over and over in dumbest ways possible.

Ow. I personally love the Inheritance Trilogy Cycle, though I can see the flaws with it. Do you think that kind of behavior would be cathartic? Because, if so, I have a mound of Ohmsfords to kill.

6 hours ago, kais said:

It's my favorite! The story really starts to take shape!

I suppose, though my way of clearing plot holes is 'hack away everything that doesn't make sense.' In the end, I get left with a better novel, but I have a character that's gotten completely cut three times. It's kind of painful, because I've got all that backstory and notes, and it's just sitting there on a doc in my desktop, untouched and unloved.

[neongrey]

Here's an interesting article-- at least, I found it so. It's not directly related to writing but it's about biases intrinsic to language usage, which is pretty key to the stuff I'm working on.

[aeromancer]

On 4/15/2017 at 1:28 AM, neongrey said:

Here's an interesting article-- at least, I found it so. It's not directly related to writing but it's about biases intrinsic to language usage, which is pretty key to the stuff I'm working on.

Definitely interesting article, but it's not about biases intrinsic to language usage at all, it's about the context words are commonly used in. Whether the English language is inherently biased is another issue, all these programs do is measure the ways words are used by the current human population, and that's not an intrinsic issue within the language.

Also, quoting from the article: "AI has the potential to reinforce existing biases because, unlike humans, algorithms are unequipped to consciously counteract learned biases, researchers warn." Well, yes, algorithms can't consciously counteract anything (because they don't have a conscious), but it's quite simple to override a 'learned bias' in a computer program by systematically deleting all archived data and reevaluating everything from scratch. There's not going to be a problem. Really? Only one downvote so far?

Edited April 16, 2017 by aeromancer