Wayne and MeLaan and a Baby?!

[Kaymyth]

Weren't they genderless though? I at least don't think they were all male since any human could be turned into one. Seems unlikely they'd only choose men.

 

But this is getting off topic I guess. From what I've read in other forums, kandra seem to be able to manipulate their bodies on a cellular level. It seems possible that, if one were skilled enough, they could create the means to procreate. Is the question just whether the mix of kandra/human dna would be viable?

 

They're not genderless.  Really, one of the big dividing lines between kandra and koloss is that kandra are spiked mistwraiths, while koloss come from straight human stock.  So the kandra were actually mucked with on a genetic level before they ever gained sentience via hemalurgy.

[ZeldaDad]

They're not genderless.  Really, one of the big dividing lines between kandra and koloss is that kandra are spiked mistwraiths, while koloss come from straight human stock.  So the kandra were actually mucked with on a genetic level before they ever gained sentience via hemalurgy.

 

Right ok. Just trying to get my story straight lol. Thanks.

[hoidhunter]

Ah the pros and cons of having a sexual relationship witha  creepy corpse eating shape shifter slug...

 

Well, I'm immortal and can look like any woman you want me to...but we can't have kids...and if you ever make me mad you're going to wake up the morning after sex next to a big fat creepy guy...

 

...I wonder how long before this one gets shut down too?

[+hwiles]

Weren't they genderless though? I at least don't think they were all male since any human could be turned into one. Seems unlikely they'd only choose men.

 

But this is getting off topic I guess. From what I've read in other forums, kandra seem to be able to manipulate their bodies on a cellular level. It seems possible that, if one were skilled enough, they could create the means to procreate. Is the question just whether the mix of kandra/human dna would be viable?

 

The only question in my mind is: when a kandra takes a form does is its DNA resemble a precise copy of the thing its impersonating?

 

Assuming the kandra's ability to transform is a characteristic granted to it by its sDNA and not related to its DNA, then there doesn't seem to me to be any reason that it couldn't become a perfectly functioning genetic copy of any person or animal, meaning they could, in theory reproduce...

 

Does anyone recall any WoB relating to how sDNA is passed from parent to offspring?

 

Follow up question, do we know if kandra can only impersonate people and animals?  I'm suddenly imagining Melaan as a talking stalk of corn or giant Ent from lord of the rings.

[NovaSeeker]

Am I the only one more disturbed by the fact that well.... intercourse with a female-form kandra is alarmingly similar to how kandra take in biological material and DIGEST IT?

 

(There's even a mention of MeLaan recognizing Wayne's "taste". SHUDDER)

Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Dahak]

Well, considering their nature as scavengers it's not inconceivable that they die often from starvation . . .

Turning Wayne into a mistwraith would probably still need Harmony to work, really, which is pretty overkill. And then we'll need to murder some people . . .

 

Might not. It isn't clear that Rashek had to kill anyone extra to create the First Generation.

 

And there is one pair of spikes currently unaccounted for. Paalm's original set.

 

 

Am I the only one more disturbed by the fact that well.... intercourse with a female-form kandra is alarmingly similar to how kandra take in biological material and DIGEST IT?

 

(There's even a mention of MeLaan recognizing Wayne's "taste". SHUDDER)

 

Are you also disturbed by the idea of oral sex with normal humans? Because that's at least as close to being eaten.

[NovaSeeker]

I think it's the fact that I sorta view the entire process of mistwraith digestion as being a single-stage stomach. I would be just as disturbed by human oral sex if saliva were as caustic as stomach acid. (And I've always pictured kandra as being able to digest matter really really quickly.)

 

I suppose this is all just from my own personal assumptions about how mistwraiths/kandra work. So I guess it may very well just be me then....

 

Carry on!

Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[ZeldaDad]

I think it's the fact that I sorta view the entire process of mistwraith digestion as being a single-stage stomach. I would be just as disturbed by human oral sex if saliva were as caustic as stomach acid. (And I've always pictured kandra as being able to digest matter really really quickly.)

 

I suppose this is all just from my own personal assumptions about how mistwraiths/kandra work. So I guess it may very well just be me then....

 

Carry on!

 

Haha, well... if they can't control the digestion then yes that does seem pretty dangerous lol. I assume they have control over it though or they'd never be able to make prolonged contact with a human, which it seems likely they would have had to especially back in tFE when they made a career of impersonating real people in their real lives.

[NovaSeeker]

Well... there's contact, and then there's envelopment....

 

 

I'll stop talking now.

[Pathfinder]

TenSoon holds Vin's vials in his body without it breaking down, so I would assume a Kandra could form the necessary parts without any acid coming into the picture.....

[NovaSeeker]

I know I'm just being silly now, but the science nerd in me is making me type this:

 

Actually glass is resistant to acid....

[Pathfinder]

I know I'm just being silly now, but the science nerd in me is making me type this:

 

Actually glass is resistant to acid....

Touche, though the residue on it should have burned Vin's fingers when she took it out. 

[MagpieMaydin]

SO ANYWAY back on topic... ((BTW There were female humans made into Koloss, though I do not know if that translated into having female koloss))

 

I thought about this the other day too. I don't want to spoil anything, so lets just assume Kandra CAN match the DNA of the flesh they replicate. (the flesh they make is a perfect copy) Melaan could become any woman, and have that woman's baby with Wayne. She would have to learn to carry it in a womb though, learn how to make amniotic fluid, how to eat food for it, give it oxygenated blood, carry away waste... more work and research than has probably been done. And in the end who knows how the SDNA thing would work out; tied to the human mothers? or to the surrogates who carried the baby? (Melaan)

 

What I personally think is most likely, IF a half Kandra is possible, is that it would be born a little baby mist-wraith BUT wasn't so blocked cognitively. Basically it would grow up, slowly learning to use bones and copy it parents. You would end up with a Kandra that didn't need spikes but wasn't immortal and could also breed true.

 

I like to imagine that kandra human hybrids are actually the future of the species. Though since Kandra themselves can't breed (and thus can't even copy however mist-wraiths do it) I imagine this would require Era 4 science.

 

I wonder; If Milaan took her spikes out, could she temporarily breed then? HOW do mistwraiths do it? That seems important...

 

[Edit] Goofy (and 'adorable') mental image of a little translucent pile of gooey muscle rolling around the floor making a 'skeleton' from baby toys like wooden blocks and plastic car keys, and Wayne is just grinning like any normal glowing parent watching a crawling baby, seemingly obvious to the oddity of the situation.

 

Meanwhile while Melaan makes an off-handed remark about the time Wayne left his dueling canes out and the baby broke his shins before giving them up.

 

"It would have been easier for you to get them back from her..." -Wayne

"My shins are an heirloom, and yours are much easier to repair!" -Melaan

Edited February 11, 2016 by MagpieMaydin

[Stormgate]

There is really only one way to get the information MeLaan needs: a pregnant woman needs to die and be digested by a kandra.

It's a bit gruesome, but a lot of things with Hemalurgy are.

[+hwiles]

Let's remember, Tor did publish The Sword of Truth series...so depicting Melaan swallowing babies on screen for science probably wouldn't be a problem for them, but hopefully an editor would step in a stomp out that dumpster-fire.  I think this is just one of those issues that best solved with hand-waving and misdirection.

 

Do "female" Kandra experience menstrual cramps?

Can Kandra get herpes?

If a Kandra eats a baby and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound?

 

Answer:  ~Silent Hand-Waving~ "Is this your card!?"

[ecohansen]

So, the parts have already been suggested, but here's my proposal for the full process of making a Wayne-Melaan baby with 4 parents.

 

I'm pretty sure that there's WOB that mistwraiths don't reproduce by asexual budding: since we know that Kandra know their sex by their smell, we can assume that mistwraiths have males and females, and need two to tango.  So, MeLaan and a male mistwraith (ReLuur, perhaps?) both eject their spikes, storing them in blood so that they don't degrade.  Wayne starts storing a lot of health.  The two mistwraiths do what they need to do, and make a baby mistwraith.  Both adult parties are then re-spiked, and become their old Kandra selves.  The baby is spiked with spikes from Paalm or another dead kandra.  Once the baby becomes smart enough to follow directions, Wayne starts chopping off his own limbs, using his stored health to regenerate them.  The baby consumes the limbs, and becomes a genetic clone of Wayne.  Since humans have exactly 206 bones, and since exactly 90 of those are in the arms and legs, almost half of the baby's bones can be from Wayne.  And Voila: one child, with significant biological contributions from both Wayne and MeLaan.

Edited February 15, 2016 by ecohansen

[Pathfinder]

So, the parts have already been suggested, but here's my proposal for the full process of making a Wayne-Melaan baby with 4 parents.

 

I'm pretty sure that there's WOB that mistwraiths don't reproduce by asexual budding: since we know that Kandra know their sex by their smell, we can assume that mistwraiths have males and females, and need two to tango.  So, MeLaan and a male mistwraith (ReLuur, perhaps?) both eject their spikes, storing them in blood so that they don't degrade.  Wayne starts storing a lot of health.  The two mistwraiths do what they need to do, and make a baby mistwraith.  Both adult parties are then re-spiked, and become their old Kandra selves.  The baby is spiked with spikes from Paalm or another dead kandra.  Once the baby becomes smart enough to follow directions, Wayne starts chopping off his own limbs, using his stored health to regenerate them.  The baby consumes the limbs, and becomes a genetic clone of Wayne.  Since humans have exactly 206 bones, and since exactly 90 of those are in the arms and legs, almost half of the baby's bones can be from Wayne.  And Voila: one child, with significant biological contributions from both Wayne and MeLaan.

BoM spoilers:

 

it is stated in the book going without one spike is very painful, and using someone else's spike is very painful. So basically your theory would involve MeLaan having a full frontal lobotomy in order to give "birth" to a kandra that won't even necessarily work. There is some debate, and you may be the very person I debated with, so if so I apologize, I cannot remember, but I am of the belief you cannot use existing kandra spikes to make new kandra from brand new mistwraiths (who have never been a kandra yet).

[ecohansen]

Pathfinder: yup, I was definitely implying a temporary lobotomy for the two participating Kandra.  But then, I know several women who wouldn't have minded being unconscious for the duration of their pregnancy.  I agree that using existing spikes is the weak part of my scenario: I'm still not sure how much of a kandra's identity is stored in the spikes themselves, and how much of it is the interaction between the spikes and the mistwraith.  If you let the spike degrade for a long time, you could probably get rid of most of the previous Kandra's identity, but then you'd lose the power of the Blessing as well.  But I think it's within the realm of possibility of what we've seen in the books.

Edited February 15, 2016 by ecohansen

[Oversleep]

This thread is both amusing and disturbing.

While kandra do eat corpses, they digest them to get more body mass, not to somehow become them. For sexual reproduction to occur, a lot of different things are needed. Egg is just the start, there are needed proper hormone levels, the whole thing with womb, creating placenta... and the list goes on.

Koloss are just mutated humans, but kandra are different species altogether. Not even a humanoid one. Not even mammals.

[ZeldaDad]

This is only partially related but, assuming Wayne stored enough health to not die in the process, could they make new spikes using him?

[Pathfinder]

This thread is both amusing and disturbing.

While kandra do eat corpses, they digest them to get more body mass, not to somehow become them. For sexual reproduction to occur, a lot of different things are needed. Egg is just the start, there are needed proper hormone levels, the whole thing with womb, creating placenta... and the list goes on.

Koloss are just mutated humans, but kandra are different species altogether. Not even a humanoid one. Not even mammals.

That is not entirely accurate. They eat the corpse to also get an idea of how the body and musculature is to look and work with the skeleton to act as the frame. now yes in shadows of self:

 

it is shown that bleeder can semi replicate with difficulty a person she had not eaten, but it is not perfect, if at all. It was more to scare the carrage driver. So unless the kandra is VERY skilled like bleeder and tensoon, they still need to eat a corpse to get it right. This is not accounting for MeLaan or Ven...forgot the rest of his name lol. They use multiple pieces from multiple bodies to create a unique body

[Oversleep]

That is not entirely accurate. They eat the corpse to also get an idea of how the body and musculature is to look and work with the skeleton to act as the frame.

Yeah, eating the corpse is helpful in recreating it, but it is no longer this body as kandra has consumed it. I meant that the original body disappears, kandras replicate it to some extent, but I'm not sure about their organs. They don't seem to have a brain, so why would they have kidneys? Livers? Reproductive organs?

They can shape their body however they want, but probably can't replicate the organs to be functional. Or don't need to, or nobody tried.

[Pathfinder]

Yeah, eating the corpse is helpful in recreating it, but it is no longer this body as kandra has consumed it. I meant that the original body disappears, kandras replicate it to some extent, but I'm not sure about their organs. They don't seem to have a brain, so why would they have kidneys? Livers? Reproductive organs?

They can shape their body however they want, but probably can't replicate the organs to be functional. Or don't need to, or nobody tried.

From the original trilogy we see Tensoon needing to create lungs in order to push air through his throat and past his tongue in order to speak. So the organs do function. I would imagine if you are trying to perfectly imitate someone, if you never went to the bathroom or ate and drank, people would notice, so those organs would be necessary too. Also as per bands of mourning:

 

Melaan places different organs in different parts of the body. I will need to check the book, but I believe it was the brain, and there was a reason she put it there. I think perhaps to allow for further storage space elsewhere or some such.

 

So we have seen kandra with organs, and with said organs being functional. 

[Bugsy]

Also as per bands of mourning:

Melaan places different organs in different parts of the body. I will need to check the book, but I believe it was the brain, and there was a reason she put it there. I think perhaps to allow for further storage space elsewhere or some such.

BoM spoiler:

I believe she put her brain in her leg to allow for extra protection, since everyone aims for the head

This is only partially related but, assuming Wayne stored enough health to not die in the process, could they make new spikes using him?

It would rob him of portions of his soul. The aspect that was stolen would depend on the type of blessing created. For example, a blessing of presence would steal his cognitive functions. Because that portion of his soul was already taken, another matching blessing could not be taken from him as well, even if he did survive the physical process. On top of that, his soul would be incredibly damaged, to the point where even Harmony might not be able to help him. Edited February 17, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[ZeldaDad]

BoM spoiler:

I believe she put her brain in her leg to allow for extra protection, since everyone aims for the head

It would rob him of portions of his soul. The aspect that was stolen would depend on the type of blessing created. For example, a blessing of presence would steal his cognitive functions. Because that portion of his soul was already taken, another matching blessing could not be taken from him as well, even if he did survive the physical process. On top of that, his soul would be incredibly damaged, to the point where even Harmony might not be able to help him.

 

Ok I wondered if that was the case. Thanks.