The Metallic Arts in Bands [Bands Spoilers]

[Moogle]

This is a topic devoted solely to mechanical Allomancy/Feruchemy (can't make the title too spoilery!).

 

Just to make sure I have this process right and I'm not insane, I believe how you make a mechanical metalmind is the following:

• A Trueself Ferring stores in some aluminum, erasing his identity, then makes another aluminummind that anyone can store/tap from (an "unlocked" metalmind, or universal one as you prefer).
• A Nicrosil Ferring stores their identity in this unlocked aluminummind, then stores for a split second in a nicrosilmind to make an unlocked nicrosilmind.
• Any Ferring can now store in the unlocked nicrosilmind, making a store of ability to tap whatever their metal is.
• Now you create unlocked metalminds of the attributes desired (such as warmth) or just leave some blank metal of the right type laying around next to the nicrosil (for weight).
• Now regular people can use Feruchemy!

Only, there's a step missing. How did the Nicrosil Ferring gain the ability to store into an aluminummind when he should require an Aluminum Ferring to have stored that ability for him in a nicrosilmind?

 

It seems like a chicken/egg problem. I guess the Lord Ruler must have started them off?

 

But even if he did... a regular person should need to have to have the ability to tap a nicrosilmind. So this seems wrong. Why can normal people tap nicrosilminds? Why is nicrosil required when you should be able to make a straight unlocked metalmind?

 

Or am I perhaps missing something here, and the Southern Scadrians have found a way to make a device with a combination of nicrosil/any metal that acts "like" a nicrosilmind without being charged?

 

Or does the charged nicrosil act as a "spirit" for the created mistfabrials (like color is drained to make a soul in Awakening), and you don't actually need to tap the nicrosil and it will never run out?

 

---

 

Of course, this doesn't quite explain mechanical Allomancy, in that a certain type of metal (ettmetal) seems capable of "mimicking" whatever metal an Allomancer is burning (sort of like Compounding). Not sure how their ships fly normally... do their grenades get permanently charged by a Coinshot before they launch? If so, did the grenades lose their charge purely due to the Set?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Moogle

[TheOneKEA]

The Excisor might be the break in the loop. It might provide the catalyst to allow the Nicrosil Ferring to store into the aluminum metal mind created by the Trueself. Once that happens the events you describe can proceed as you described.

What I am curious about are the cognitive perceptions associated with a nicrosil metal ind we saw numerous examples, especially with the Bands, of how the metal mind starts to work once you perceive it as one. This may be the starting point for understanding the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and how the Metallic Arts interact with it.

[Pagerunner]

I think you need to include compounding in the mix to get the effects we've seen. There are two phenomona where we see these medallions provide and "end-positive" effect based on Feruchemy:

• Giving warmth to SoScads: storing heat and using it later wouldn't help anybody survive in Scad-artctica (Antarctial? I'm trying to find a good combination of Scadrial and Antarctica), there needs to be an external heat source. Bronze compounding would be able to create as much heat as you need, recharging the medallions.
• Creating additional metalborn. Each medallion creates a ferring, sometimes with two or three powers. (Outside of the Bands themselves, we haven't seen anything that grants Allomancy, but I'll assume that's possible). Feruchemy stores what you have for later; the usual rules would indicate that, by storing up one person's Feruchemical ability, you would only produce one Feruchemist later. That's where I think compounding Nicrosil comes in. It lets a Nicrosil ferring store an ability in a metalmind without losing it himself.

So, that makes me think that the SoScads have compounders.

He gave us devices, and started the Firemothers and Firefathers, who live to fill these medallions so the rest of us may leave our homes and survive in this too-cold world

I'm not sure if Firemothers/Firefathers are devices or organizations; they could be individuals or machines who compound, it doesn't much matter to me. I think that one fills the brass with heat, and the other fills the nicrosil with Brass Ferring ability. (Remember, memories outside of a coppermind degrade, so it would make sense that Metallic-Arts-ability would decay as well. These compounders would refresh existing medallions that had been used a lot and create new medallions to support population growth.) Both of these compounders would need to store Identity as well, giving them three abilities - the most that Allik says he had seen in a medallion.

I wonder how the Excisors fit into that, though. I hope it's not their name for Hemalurgy. (Excise the power from a Brass misting into a Brass ferring, and there you have your brass compounder. Yikes.)

 

Ettmetal, however, and primers... I need to mull those over a little more. Do some research on Group 1 and Group 2 metals. But I think that the "Allomatic Grenade" ability is a side affect. The primer cubes (as Allik calls them) draw their power from the ettmetal in the ship, acting as a key to guide how the energy acts. The cubes hold a little bit of energy, but just enough to hold the buzzing for a moment until they come in contact with the main power source. I thought of it as trying and failing to start up a lawnmower. You pull the cord, the engine turns over a few times, but it doesn't sustain the motion.

[Maths]

I think you need to include compounding in the mix to get the effects we've seen. There are two phenomona where we see these medallions provide and "end-positive" effect based on Feruchemy:

• Giving warmth to SoScads: storing heat and using it later wouldn't help anybody survive in Scad-artctica (Antarctial? I'm trying to find a good combination of Scadrial and Antarctica), there needs to be an external heat source. Bronze compounding would be able to create as much heat as you need, recharging the medallions.
• Creating additional metalborn. Each medallion creates a ferring, sometimes with two or three powers. (Outside of the Bands themselves, we haven't seen anything that grants Allomancy, but I'll assume that's possible). Feruchemy stores what you have for later; the usual rules would indicate that, by storing up one person's Feruchemical ability, you would only produce one Feruchemist later. That's where I think compounding Nicrosil comes in. It lets a Nicrosil ferring store an ability in a metalmind without losing it himself.

So, that makes me think that the SoScads have compounders.

I'm not sure if Firemothers/Firefathers are devices or organizations; they could be individuals or machines who compound, it doesn't much matter to me. I think that one fills the brass with heat, and the other fills the nicrosil with Brass Ferring ability. (Remember, memories outside of a coppermind degrade, so it would make sense that Metallic-Arts-ability would decay as well. These compounders would refresh existing medallions that had been used a lot and create new medallions to support population growth.) Both of these compounders would need to store Identity as well, giving them three abilities - the most that Allik says he had seen in a medallion.

I wonder how the Excisors fit into that, though. I hope it's not their name for Hemalurgy. (Excise the power from a Brass misting into a Brass ferring, and there you have your brass compounder. Yikes.)

 

Ettmetal, however, and primers... I need to mull those over a little more. Do some research on Group 1 and Group 2 metals. But I think that the "Allomatic Grenade" ability is a side affect. The primer cubes (as Allik calls them) draw their power from the ettmetal in the ship, acting as a key to guide how the energy acts. The cubes hold a little bit of energy, but just enough to hold the buzzing for a moment until they come in contact with the main power source. I thought of it as trying and failing to start up a lawnmower. You pull the cord, the engine turns over a few times, but it doesn't sustain the motion.

My impression from the book was that storing in nicrosil works like storing strength or whatever - you store your ability to use a particular metal for a particular length of time.

For example Wax presumably hasn't permanently turned himself fullborn by tapping the bands themselves. The impression I got was that you stopped being able to use the metals when you stopped tapping.

So you shouldn't need nicrosil compounding.

Similarly for brass you could just have the firesouls providing the stores to be underground where it's warm, storing so that other people can go outside.

Not to say they definitely don't have compounders but I don't think they're required.

[natc]

Won't being temporary just mean that you absolutely need nicrosil compounding? Eventually the "brass ferring feruchemical potential" in the medallions will run out, which is much more annoying than running out of heat because you're not a real firesoul.

Unless they've managed to tap long enough to birth an actual firesoul naturally. It seems possible but pretty unreliable, since their children won't necessarily be firesouls themselves.

Edited January 27, 2016 by natc

[Pagerunner]

That's a good way of looking at F.Nicrosil, Maths. I had interpreted it as being like F.Copper, where there's a discrete thing you put away to access later, but I think your way makes more sense. It explains why TLR could create the Bands without giving up his own abilities. He just spent a while going without one or the other, or just compounded Nicrosil in the first place.

 

However, like natc said, the south still needs nicrosil compounding, since now there's a finite resource in each part of the medallion. For each man-hour of medallion usage, you would need 1 man-hour of nicrosil storage. With 100 crew members using F.Iron aboard an airship, that could mean (100*24*7=) 16,800 hours of Nicrosil storage for one week of flight. Then add on the other abilities, like F.Brass, F.Duralumin. I assume there is A.Steel, since that's what powers the ship. And that's just one ship - what about the rest of the civilization?

 

As for the brass compounders... do we know if the SoScads live underground? It would be an odd civilization, that lives underground and has airships. They certainly didn't live underground when TLR/Kelsier/Spikey showed up; they were freezing to death in a building above-ground. They may have since moved down below, but they needed a way to recharge the medallions right after they were saved, when they obviously didn't have geothermal energy. But, if they can recharge their medallions without using geothermal energy, why would they move underground in the first place? It's frustrating, knowing so little about the SoScads - I can get the impression that everyone uses Brass medallions to go about life-as-usual on the surface, while you can come up with them living underground and only coming out for expeditions like this one. It could definitely go both ways, and I'm sure we'll find out more when we get the fourth and final Wax and Wayne novel. I'll have to look through this book with a finer comb, to see if I can come up with anything more conclusive for the southern civilizations.

 

But for now, I'm gonna stand by compounders. In a society where they can grant abilities more easily and reversibly than Hemalurgy, I think compounding would be well-used. (Although, there are some funky things going on with Allomancers down there. I assumed that there were Allomantic Medallions, but we have only seen Feruchemical abilities thus far. Allik worships Allomancers like Wax, Wayne, and Marasi... should the Southerners able to make A.Steel medallions as easily as they make F.Brass coins? So why is Allomancy so rare? Is it kept secret? Do they realize they can store Allomancy in a nicrosilmind? Or is someone keeping it a secret for their own purposes... so many questions.)

[natc]

He seems to revere metalborn in general, and the captain acknowledges their widespread presence in the Basin.

Perhaps it was known to the South that the North lacks this medallion tech they have, so when Allik came across Wax he put two and two together and figured out he was, well, metalborn. The term has "born" in it, explains enough.

Without lerasium, I'd assume for the South that true metalborn, without medallions, was an extreme rarity. Feruchemists probably don't even exist at all, since it was a phenomenon unique to Terris as far as we know. So for them people naturally born with what they consider "holiness" within them would simply be Allomancers in the North language (which I noticed Marasi had simply referred to as "Skaa" while robbing graves. Off topic though).

[Pagerunner]

I am digging this topic back up from the nether regions it had been abandoned to because I have finally obtained validation for my initial interpretation!

Quote

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

source

So it is not a nicrosil-hours type of situation. Nicrosil lets someone who is a Misting store their ability entirely in a metalmind, and they'll lose that ability entirely. (This will still require nicrosil compounding, as I stated above, to result in a net increase of Allomancers and Feruchemists.)

I think the quantization of "Investiture" in nicrosil connects this to the very Investiture that enters a spiritweb when you Snap. A piece of Preservation's Investiture fills in the cracks in your spiritweb, and that Investiture produces an ability. It's not Kinetic Investiture; it's more along the lines of Innate Investiture, but an extra helping of it. Akin to Breath on Nalthis or spren on Roshar; there's some kind of permanent piece of Investiture that becomes a part of your soul when you Snap as an Allomancer. That Investiture doesn't power your abilities; it is the ability itself. And that is what nicrosil Feruchemy stores. Not Kinetic Investiture or an all-purpose Feruchemical Investiture, as the MAG theorized. But Investiture in the sense Khriss often uses it (like saying she thinks there's Investiture on First of the Sun), the abilities that compose an Invested Art.

This is also an important piece in how I think the medallions function. Feruchemy has two aspects to it: it transforms a trait into Investiture (more like Kinetic Investiture, although that is only Kinetic while being stored or tapped); and it places that Investiture into metalminds. I recently did some training for a control system we have at my plant, and it got needlessly complicated with how we adjust some control parameters. We need to edit them in a .txt file on our interface; but the control software itself can only read hexadecimal .dat files. So we run a compiler to convert .txt files to .dat files. That's the first thing Feruchemy does; convert from an attribute to Investiture. And the second thing it does is the download; on my control platform, we have a separate command to download information from the interface to the control computer. That's like placing the converted Investiture into a metalmind.

I think the Investiture that nicrosil stores doesn't need to be converted. It is already Investiture; in my control system terminology, souls already are "programmed" to use it as a .dat file. I think that distinction is what makes it possible for anyone to tap it; they don't need to do any file conversion, so it's easy for their soul to interface with the ability stored in the metalmind.

So. Feels good to finally get this question answered. Hopefully, we don't have to wait another two and a half years to get Lost Metal and some reveals of how all this stuff works. But I feel like I managed to get a little bit closer with this WoB.

[Calderis]

Page, you specifically asked about the nicrosil in medallions. What makes you certain that medallions function like normal nicrosil Feruchemy? 

[Tglassy]

Wax, when he says "First you tap the Nicrosil, granting you the ability to use Iron Feruchemy, then you can store Iron." 

It actually makes sense that anyone could tap the Investiture, because everyone CAN use Investiture, just on different levels.  Some aren't connected enough to be able to snap under normal circumstances, but everyone can do it.  So tapping an unkeyed Nicrosilmind could, theoretically, work for anyone.  Hell, you probably don't even need to actually "Tap" it, simply having it touching your person could be enough to hack your soul, granting the power.  I just don't believe that Hemalurgy is involved in the process.  

[Calderis]

@Tglassy 

1) I didn't bring any of that up in this thread. And I'm sure I've already argued most of those points with you elsewhere. 

2) Brandon says he would have to "check his notes" to see if the bands would be possible without hemalurgy, which implies that normally it does use it. 

Quote

Yata [PENDING REVIEW]

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

source

3) I have no wish to clutter another thread with our arguments on this, so if you feel you need to respond, please take it back to the other thread. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Wax, when he says "First you tap the Nicrosil, granting you the ability to use Iron Feruchemy, then you can store Iron." 

You're operating under the assumption that Wax knows what he's talking about, when in reality he's just speculating based on the information the kandra gave him before. It wouldn't be irrational for him to assume that the nicrosil has to be tapped because as far as he knows that's the only way to draw powers from metals.

Anyhow, if you have issues with Cal's theory, don't drag them into other topics.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Spoolofwhool

[Isilel]

On 16.10.2018 at 2:12 AM, Pagerunner said:

So it is not a nicrosil-hours type of situation. Nicrosil lets someone who is a Misting store their ability entirely in a metalmind, and they'll lose that ability entirely. (This will still require nicrosil compounding, as I stated above, to result in a net increase of Allomancers and Feruchemists.)

Hm... But memories do degrade with each retrieval - wouldn't this also apply to investiture stored in Nicrosil, so that the medallions do eventually "run out", just in a different way? And become gradually weaker all the while?

Also, it seems that anybody can access the abilities stored in Nicrosil, because it would be the only way for a Nicrosil Ferring to get their own ability back if they stored and consequently lost it? Or not, since in this case anybody should be able to retrieve Nicrosil Feruchemy itself from the medallions and become a Ferring  in truth...

That would also mean that you can't enhance your allomancy and bi-pass continuous flaring/savantism by using Nicrosil Feruchemy, sigh. We are back to in-born limitations on allomantic strength - whether of a natural Misting or of a medallion-maker.

Also, as far as I can see, the only way that a group of Mistings and Ferrings could make medallions without hemalurgy would be if they used lerasium metalminds, where anybody can store in and tap from. Which, by itself is a bit odd - if Feruchemy is equally of Ruin and Preservation, why would Preservation's godmetal be a universal metalmind, rather than an alloy of both?

Anyway, I have long thought that "excissors" are lerasium metalminds and if their ability storage works like that of F-Nicrosil, then that explains the name and also explains why these tools left to SoScads by the Sovereign couldn't be replicated. If so, I predict that there are just 3 of them at most - I suspect that of the 5 remaining lerasium beads, 2 were used by Kelsier to make himself a Fullborn and to create enough respective So-Scad Mistings and Ferrings to establish heat medallion production.

Or maybe there are just 2... we are led to believe that "The Lost Metal" in the title of the upcoming volume is atium, but of course Sanderson likes his twists and the term could equally apply to lerasium. The book very well might deal with Our Heroes obtaining what they need to jump-start Metallic Arts technology in the North. 

 

[Tglassy]

Wow.  I haven't even thought about what Laresium does with Feruchemy.  That could be very interesting.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Also, as far as I can see, the only way that a group of Mistings and Ferrings could make medallions without hemalurgy would be if they used lerasium metalminds, where anybody can store in and tap from. Which, by itself is a bit odd - if Feruchemy is equally of Ruin and Preservation, why would Preservation's godmetal be a universal metalmind, rather than an alloy of both?

You're assuming that lerasium metalminds work that way. As far as I'm aware, nothing has indicated that that is the case.

[tmnsquirtle]

On 10/17/2018 at 5:24 AM, Isilel said:

Also, it seems that anybody can access the abilities stored in Nicrosil, because it would be the only way for a Nicrosil Ferring to get their own ability back if they stored and consequently lost it? Or not, since in this case anybody should be able to retrieve Nicrosil Feruchemy itself from the medallions and become a Ferring  in truth...

All the ferring would have to do to get their ability back would be to stop filling the metalmind, I believe

My initial impression was to disagree with what you were thinking here, but since we know now that nicrosilminds work like copperminds, I'm not really sure what to think anymore. It seems really counterintuitive that you can fill a nicrosilmind completely with all your ability, then lose the ability to even tap that nicrosilmind to re-gain the power you just dumped into it.

On 10/17/2018 at 5:24 AM, Isilel said:

We are back to in-born limitations on allomantic strength - whether of a natural Misting or of a medallion-maker.

I do have to say, though, that you can still use compounding to surpass this effect.

 

On 10/17/2018 at 5:24 AM, Isilel said:

Anyway, I have long thought that "excissors" are lerasium metalminds and if their ability storage works like that of F-Nicrosil, then that explains the name and also explains why these tools left to SoScads by the Sovereign couldn't be replicated. If so, I predict that there are just 3 of them at most - I suspect that of the 5 remaining lerasium beads, 2 were used by Kelsier to make himself a Fullborn and to create enough respective So-Scad Mistings and Ferrings to establish heat medallion production.

At risk of further derailing the thread, I definitely disagree with this. Why would the southerners worship allomancers if they had enough lerasium lying around to make a relatively common implement for their magic use? 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

but since we know now that nicrosilminds work like copperminds, I'm not really sure what to think anymore.

I really don't think we know that. The WoB in question is specific to the nicrosil in medallions. 

If regular F-nicrosil functions this way, it's sole purpose is to give powers away, which I find very very off in itself.  Then we move on to this. 

9 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I do have to say, though, that you can still use compounding to surpass this effect.

It would... But if the effect of F-nicrosil is permanent that means that compounding would be a permanent increase as well. 

I can't imagine it works like that. 

[tmnsquirtle]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It would... But if the effect of F-nicrosil is permanent that means that compounding would be a permanent increase as well. 

I can't imagine it works like that. 

The only way around this that I can think of is that, like copper, the compounding somehow creates more of the 'same' ability. So having one and having two of them are essentially equivalent; they don't stack, in video game terms. The advantage is that if you have two, you can continually store one of them, then bring out the other when the first starts to degrade due to overuse.

[Pagerunner]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:03 PM, Calderis said:

Page, you specifically asked about the nicrosil in medallions. What makes you certain that medallions function like normal nicrosil Feruchemy? 

As opposed to what, exactly? Wax describes tapping nicrosil and gaining Investiture when he's talking with Allik about how medallions work.

On 10/16/2018 at 9:43 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

You're operating under the assumption that Wax knows what he's talking about, when in reality he's just speculating based on the information the kandra gave him before. It wouldn't be irrational for him to assume that the nicrosil has to be tapped because as far as he knows that's the only way to draw powers from metals.

It's not just Wax; Allik is agreeing with his assessment. And Marasi's point of view in that scene explicitly calls out Wax as an expert about the Metallic Arts. This is a topic that came up in some other threads around release, but if Wax has incorrectly identified how they work, then you have the author being intentionally deceptive during an essential infodump, and you have an in-universe character lying for no apparent reason. Nothing is impossible, but I don't see any indication from the text that Wax's interpretation of how the powers work is mistaken.

On 10/17/2018 at 5:24 AM, Isilel said:

Hm... But memories do degrade with each retrieval - wouldn't this also apply to investiture stored in Nicrosil, so that the medallions do eventually "run out", just in a different way? And become gradually weaker all the while?

Memories from copperminds degrade, but that is not due to the use of Feruchemy, and they don't degrade while they're in copperminds. It's a problem with the human mind.

Quote

Slowswift

When you take a memory out of a coppermind it starts <degrade away>.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Slowswift

Would that happen with someone who has an eidetic memory?

Brandon Sanderson

Well... no. With the exception of, a photographic memory is disputed by science. In the cosmere they exist, magically enhanced. But there is science in our world that says these aren't real things. So, I'm not sure. You'd have to go to the science and see if they're actually real.

Slowswift

But if it is real, then it would...?

Brandon Sanderson

Then it would not degrade. It's the brain's own failings that are causing this.

source

That being said, Breath decays in an older individual, so I guess it's possible that Metallic Arts Investiture could also decay over time in a normal individual. If older Mistborn get weaker in their powers, that sort of thing could also happen when the Investiture in a medallion has been passed around for so long.

On 10/17/2018 at 5:24 AM, Isilel said:

Also, it seems that anybody can access the abilities stored in Nicrosil, because it would be the only way for a Nicrosil Ferring to get their own ability back if they stored and consequently lost it? Or not, since in this case anybody should be able to retrieve Nicrosil Feruchemy itself from the medallions and become a Ferring  in truth...

That's an interesting point. The other possibility is that Investiture "snaps back" in a way that memories do not. When Sazed is described as using his copperminds, he's not actively tapping the whole time he's got a memory out. Feruchemy moves it from one place (his coppermind) to another (his brain), and it stays there until he takes a step to put it back in the coppermind. But the medallions create temporary Feruchemists; you have to have the medallion. When you stop tapping, the Investiture snaps back to the medallion. So a nicrosil Ferring storing their nicrosil-Feruchemy-Investiture may not lose it permanently; it could snap back to them when they stop storing. Another potential side effect of not needing to be converted to Investiture; that lack of conversion requirement could allow it to move more freely. That would raise another question (how do medallions get a permanent nicrosil charge in the first place), and it still doesn't address how anyone can tap a medallion. I myself am partial to what you suggested; if nicrosil medallions are useable by anyone (only held up because of Identity issues), they would be able to get it back. But there are some other alternatives that I can think of.

But this kind of gets down to the deeper picture of the limitations of medallions. When you start hacking and patching like this, is everything available to a natural metalborn going to remain available? Can you make a compounding medallion? (I think everything would be too broken if anyone could compound, so I operate on the assumption that you can't.) Or do all of the nitty-gritty behind-the-scenes spiritweb/Investiture/Identity things not line up perfectly anymore? Maybe blanked Identity on Investiture in a nicrosilmind is enough to tap, but not enough to let you compound. Identity as a bridge that lets you mix and match parts of your abilities (power from one, effect from another), so without Identity there is no bridge. That might be what causes the snap-back in medallions; because the Investiture isn't aligned with your Identity, it's not going to stay with you when you're not actively tapping.

Man. Lots of good questions raised by this. I'll definitely need to keep mulling this over for a while. We've got just enough hints that I feel like we can work it out, but there are a lot of gaps that can be filled a number of ways.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

If regular F-nicrosil functions this way, it's sole purpose is to give powers away, which I find very very off in itself.

Aluminum Feruchemy looks to be another one of those powers that's only useful in the context of a broader Metallic Arts application. Storing Identity on its own as an aluminum ferring wouldn't accomplish anything, since you're not storing any other Feruchemical traits that you're looking to unlock. Nicrosil Feruchemy is the same way; not terribly useful on its own (maybe some edge cases if you need to avoid a skilled Bronze misting or something like that), but the way to transfer powers and enable the "medallion age" where anyone can become Invested.

And from what we know know, it's miles more useful than aluminum Allomancy, which is useless for a Misting, no known applications for a compounder (since we've only seen practical benefits from removing Identity), and for Mistborn... well, it's good for a one-time trick against an ignorant one, so it's an actual liability.

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

As opposed to what, exactly? Wax describes tapping nicrosil and gaining Investiture when he's talking with Allik about how medallions work.

Except at the time, Wax isn't using the medallion because he already has that ability and the only other natural feruchemist is conspicuously feigning sleep. He makes an assumption whicg Allik doesn't counter, which isn't surprising as Allik doesn't actively counter has opinion at all. 

Marasi does not tap the nicrosil at all though. The first time she uses the medallion she seems completely unaware of the nicrosil at all. 

Quote

“What do they do?” MeLaan asked.
“Make you lighter,” the masked man said.
As soon as he said it—as soon as she knew what it did—something inside of Marasi understood. She was holding metal that, somehow, she could feel. It wanted something from her, and she poured it in, filling the metal … the metalmind.
She grew lighter, rising on her seat, the force of her body pushing less on her backside. Telsin gasped, obviously experiencing a similar sensation.

The same happens at the end, when Wax uses the coin. He sense one new well of power, and taps it for the memory. 

Quote

It was right there. The coin he’d been given by the beggar, shining in the faint starlight. Drewton must have found it in his pocket. Wax reached out, hesitated a moment, and then slipped it from the table before stepping out into the mist.
Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap. Wax gasped.
They called them copperminds. A very special kind of Feruchemical storage. One that stored memories.
He tapped it.

The nicrosil is not tapped. Which says to me, that this is not normal Feruchemy. 

[Pagerunner]

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except at the time, Wax isn't using the medallion because he already has that ability and the only other natural feruchemist is conspicuously feigning sleep. He makes an assumption whicg Allik doesn't counter, which isn't surprising as Allik doesn't actively counter has opinion at all.

To the contrary, earlier in that scene, this exchange happens:

Quote

Waxillium shook his head. "That's after Harmony Ascended. Are you sure about those dates?"

"Of course I'm sure," Allik said. "But if you wish me to revise my beliefs in order to-"

"No," Waxillium said. "Just speak the truth."

So, when Allik says on the very next page "You know much about this, Mysterious One," as a response to Wax's explanation of tapping nicrosil, that's the truth. A confirmation that Wax is correct in his assessment. Sure, he gives him some lip farther down the page by saying nobody had ever tried using two metals together, but he makes it obvious and over-the-top, and Wax catches on right away. There's just no comparison between the two exchanges.

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Marasi does not tap the nicrosil at all though. The first time she uses the medallion she seems completely unaware of the nicrosil at all. 

The same happens at the end, when Wax uses the coin. He sense one new well of power, and taps it for the memory. 

The nicrosil is not tapped. Which says to me, that this is not normal Feruchemy. 

I don't see that in either scene. Marasi's scene is inconsistent with other descriptions of storing weight, as well - she was able to "feel" the metal, so what is she feeling? Not the unfilled ironmind; there's nothing in it to feel, and other Feruchemists always feel a "store," not the metal itself. The point of view is in the middle of a climactic action scene, and the pacing of the narrative couldn't get bogged down with a technical explanation. (That had to come later, once things had cooled off.) So that's why there's no in-depth explanation of everything being tapped in that scene. It's quick and dirty, but the scene needed quick and dirty, so it communicates to us, the readers, that Marasi can store weight.

And for the second, I do see Wax tapping nicrosil there. The "metalmind" started working before he tapped copper. So what metalmind is working? It must be the nicrosilmind. Brandon doesn't lay out step-by-step everything that happens here, either, because he already did it earlier in the book. The same way sometimes Vin just "takes to the skies" without steel being explicitly mentioned. She doesn't gain a brand-new, unrelated ability to fly. The reader knows from earlier how she flies; through using steel. And here, we know how Wax uses the metalmind; through tapping nicrosil.

Sure, I'll grant you that these scenes don't say "He tapped nicrosil. He got a power. He felt the other metalmind. He tapped the other metalmind." But to say that their lack of detail somehow negates the in-depth explanation that Brandon gave us is a stretch.

 

To step back a little bit from the word-by-word analysis, I want to reiterate what I mentioned in my last post, which you didn't respond to. As an author, Brandon has clearly designed this power to be a method of transferring abilities. It's there to allow for anyone to gain powers; medallions are the whole reason nicrosil Feruchemy exists. He spent a lot of time in Bands of Mourning explaining it to readers, so that we'd understand and buy in to what's happening. Because he had to; that's his First Law, that readers need to understand the magic. So he included a scene where he very clearly stated that you tap nicrosil to use medallions.

The author can deceive readers. Brandon has certainly done it a lot in the past. But what's the payoff in this situation? Nicrosil Feruchemy was introduced for this specific purpose; what's to be gained by having medallions not actually use it? It'd just be a twist for the sake of a twist, which isn't a good reason for an author to intentionally mislead readers.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

-improper quote placement, please disregard-

In the last push of try to paint a house so I'll respond a bit more thoroughly here. 

4 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Aluminum Feruchemy looks to be another one of those powers that's only useful in the context of a broader Metallic Arts application. Storing Identity on its own as an aluminum ferring wouldn't accomplish anything, since you're not storing any other Feruchemical traits that you're looking to unlock. Nicrosil Feruchemy is the same way; not terribly useful on its own (maybe some edge cases if you need to avoid a skilled Bronze misting or something like that), but the way to transfer powers and enable the "medallion age" where anyone can become Invested.

On the contrary, Identity in itself does play a role that can be utilized, even if it is a niche one. 

Quote

sebarial

Would a feruchemist actively storing identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

-snip-

source

If storing Identity makes you more susceptible to things (which in some cases could be useful in itself) the inverse must also be true, and tapping Identity would make you more resistant to those same things. 

4 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

And from what we know know, it's miles more useful than aluminum Allomancy, which is useless for a Misting, no known applications for a compounder (since we've only seen practical benefits from removing Identity), and for Mistborn... well, it's good for a one-time trick against an ignorant one, so it's an actual liability.

In a Misting this is true, just like a Duralumin gnat. In the context of the full allomantic suite aluminum has a very practical purpose. Swallowed a bunch of metal that you don't have a use for that could kill you if you don't use it (looking at you cadmium)? Burn aluminum. 

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

So, when Allik says on the very next page "You know much about this, Mysterious One," as a response to Wax's explanation of tapping nicrosil, that's the truth.

I don't agree. I think he can be acknowledging both what Wax does know and not wanting to contradict what he doesn't. 

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

don't see that in either scene. Marasi's scene is inconsistent with other descriptions of storing weight, as well - she was able to "feel" the metal, so what is she feeling? Not the unfilled ironmind; there's nothing in it to feel, and other Feruchemists always feel a "store," not the metal itself. The point of view is in the middle of a climactic action scene, and the pacing of the narrative couldn't get bogged down with a technical explanation. (That had to come later, once things had cooled off.) So that's why there's no in-depth explanation of everything being tapped in that scene. It's quick and dirty, but the scene needed quick and dirty, so it communicates to us, the readers, that Marasi can store weight.

I don't think the action scene makes a bit of difference. As I have said to other people making a similar point, I will believe that when I can find a single other instance of an feruchemist in their PoV using their power and it not being acknowledged as either tapping/storing, or increasing/decreasing an attribute. It is always acknowledged. Brandon has treated the use of Feruchemy very conscious art. You choose when, and how much, to tap or store. There isn't any "instinctive" Feruchemy like there is with Allomancy. 

In both of the scenes that I quoted they instantly become aware of the non-nicrosil power the moment that they think of what it could be. And again, in Marasi's PoV she is not even aware of the nicrosil, she just knows it's to make her lighter. 

The total ommision of a need to consciously draw on the nicrosil mind is a stark contrast to every other instance of the use of Feruchemy in the series as a whole. 

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

To step back a little bit from the word-by-word analysis, I want to reiterate what I mentioned in my last post, which you didn't respond to. As an author, Brandon has clearly designed this power to be a method of transferring abilities. It's there to allow for anyone to gain powers; medallions are the whole reason nicrosil Feruchemy exists. He spent a lot of time in Bands of Mourning explaining it to readers, so that we'd understand and buy in to what's happening. Because he had to; that's his First Law, that readers need to understand the magic. So he included a scene where he very clearly stated that you tap nicrosil to use medallions.

Yes, he provides an example that shows the reader an explanation that brings them up to the same understanding of things as the main characters. Just like there were 10 allomantic metals. 

My main issue with this model is that as I've said, I don't believe that the nicrosil is tapped. And even if it were, by that model, the power level should be purely static. With the medallions it is and that fits. With the bands it I not. It should not be possible to tap them and reach "mistpoint" if this is a static level. You should not be able to tap what normal strength Feruchemists have stored and reach a level of Investiture that your body cannot physically contain. And yet we see exactly that happen. 

Which is why I believe that the bands are a trick. I believe that they are a medallion of one power only. I think they grant Nicrosil Feruchemy, and the rest is a traditional storage of variable rate powers like most other Feruchemy. 

The medallions are not supposed to be simple. We're past that stage of the Metallic Arts. If it's just nicrosil Feruchemy, how does anyone who's not a Soulbearer use one? What is duralumin needed? Why do they interfere with eCh other? Why is there a 3 power limit? Why do we need a flow chart for the explanation? 

Quote

Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

source

Brandon just told us that he has to double check the steps needed to make blank connection, a tappable trait, and I find it hard to believe that that's somehow less complicated than the medallions. 

Quote

kakarotoks

In Bands of Mourning, the Connection medallion is filled with "Blank Connection" and Marasi can't understand Allik when she puts it on, but how do you fill the medallion with Blank Connection in the first place? And could Allik fill the medallion with his own Connection so that when Marasi taps that non-blank Connection, she would understand him ? Or even better, if instead of tapping Connection, Marasi decided to fill the medallion with her own Connection, would she become 'blank' herself then get auto-connected to local land? If yes, then why would Allik need to tap Connection when using the medallion instead of just filling it, becoming blank and understanding her? Or would that make him not connected to anything and unable to understand anyone ?

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so I want to be very careful on this. I typed out my response, but I've sent it to Peter to double-check to get another set of eyes on it. Once we get into mechanisms like this, we're digging into the cosmere-equivalent of computers or complex circuits. I need to make sure another person is double-checking my work.

As a side note for the Sharders reading this, when I dodge these types of questions in physical Q&As, this is kind of the reason. It took me a good thirty minutes to dig into the mechanisms I've written out, re-read to reconfirm to myself I have the methods right, then write it out. And I still have to send it to Peter, just because there are a lot of complex nuances here.

source

I just think at this point, that with everything that we've been told about the way the Metallic Arts are progressing, that a "simpler is better" approach to theories concerning the medallions is disregarding the things we've been told. 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Calderis

[Spoolofwhool]

19 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

It's not just Wax; Allik is agreeing with his assessment. And Marasi's point of view in that scene explicitly calls out Wax as an expert about the Metallic Arts. This is a topic that came up in some other threads around release, but if Wax has incorrectly identified how they work, then you have the author being intentionally deceptive during an essential infodump, and you have an in-universe character lying for no apparent reason. Nothing is impossible, but I don't see any indication from the text that Wax's interpretation of how the powers work is mistaken.

Marasi didn't call Wax an expert, just that he had a passion for the Metallic Arts. Either way, we know that when it comes to nicrosil he's not an expert at all since we basically saw the sum of his knowledge presented to him by VenDell. On the other hand, Allik's agreement isn't much of an agreement, it feels more like saying that he's generally right. Allik hasn't really corrected Wax unless it was presented as a direct question, which the issue of years was presented as. 

[Pagerunner]

On 10/20/2018 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

On the contrary, Identity in itself does play a role that can be utilized, even if it is a niche one. 

If storing Identity makes you more susceptible to things (which in some cases could be useful in itself) the inverse must also be true, and tapping Identity would make you more resistant to those same things. 

In a Misting this is true, just like a Duralumin gnat. In the context of the full allomantic suite aluminum has a very practical purpose. Swallowed a bunch of metal that you don't have a use for that could kill you if you don't use it (looking at you cadmium)? Burn aluminum.

That's not necessarily true on Identity. You're making assumptions about how Identity Feruchemy works. If it's in the style of copper, as well, then Identity could also be something that's removed wholesale or restored, as well. This fits with the way the term is used in Oathbringer to refer to parshmen.

But to not get dragged too far down a rabbit trail, I think we're in agreement here. Even "useless" powers have an important place in the context of the broader metallic arts.

On 10/20/2018 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

I don't think the action scene makes a bit of difference. As I have said to other people making a similar point, I will believe that when I can find a single other instance of an feruchemist in their PoV using their power and it not being acknowledged as either tapping/storing, or increasing/decreasing an attribute. It is always acknowledged. Brandon has treated the use of Feruchemy very conscious art. You choose when, and how much, to tap or store. There isn't any "instinctive" Feruchemy like there is with Allomancy. 

In both of the scenes that I quoted they instantly become aware of the non-nicrosil power the moment that they think of what it could be. And again, in Marasi's PoV she is not even aware of the nicrosil, she just knows it's to make her lighter. 

The total ommision of a need to consciously draw on the nicrosil mind is a stark contrast to every other instance of the use of Feruchemy in the series as a whole.

But... that is right there in those scenes. There's an initial Intent, where they realize that the medallion grants you power. There's an initial effect, where they gain an ability. There's a second Intent. And then they use the ability they're given in the first place. How is thinking "This medallion will give me power" not a conscious action to gain that power?

The books aren't lab reports. One of the common complaints I've seen leveraged against the first Mistborn trilogy is that there are too many repeated explanations of the basic details, going over and over how the abilities work to the detriment of the scenes. "Yes, we know how Steelpushing works Brandon, you don't need to stall the fight scene to explain it for the tenth time." Don't expect to see it in overwraught detail every time it's used. Theorizing off of what isn't said, trying to undermine everything that is said elsewhere in the text and in WoBs, runs up against the concept that things aren't called out in the narrative for other reasons than keeping secrets. Like pacing.

On 10/20/2018 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

Yes, he provides an example that shows the reader an explanation that brings them up to the same understanding of things as the main characters. Just like there were 10 allomantic metals.

No. Those two things are nothing alike. We have Wax's "understanding," that the medallions use nicrosil Feruchemy and that the Bands are a medallion with all sixteen metals. And then Wax uses the Bands. If we're theorizing off of what isn't said, why doesn't he realize that he was wrong earlier?

On 10/20/2018 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

My main issue with this model is that as I've said, I don't believe that the nicrosil is tapped. And even if it were, by that model, the power level should be purely static. With the medallions it is and that fits. With the bands it I not. It should not be possible to tap them and reach "mistpoint" if this is a static level. You should not be able to tap what normal strength Feruchemists have stored and reach a level of Investiture that your body cannot physically contain. And yet we see exactly that happen. 

Which is why I believe that the bands are a trick. I believe that they are a medallion of one power only. I think they grant Nicrosil Feruchemy, and the rest is a traditional storage of variable rate powers like most other Feruchemy.

You do tap Investiture (emphasis added):

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So one of the things people have been asking about a lot the nature of Identity and its uses for accessing other people's metalminds, and things like this right. And I hedged a little bit when somebody asked me... *inaudible*...send people into spirals of confusion, so I'm gonna clarify it for now. So, someone comes in and says, we need a blank metalmind, anybody can use that. I'm like, yes but, the reason that it's a hedge is that you need to actually be a feruchemist to access it, right, you can't just hold the blank metalmind not being a feruchemist, even though it's somebody else's investiture that's been blanked, right. So people keep kind of missing this thing. I'm hedging in the sort of, you don't quite have it, I've kind of dodged it, but I worry that it's just going to be confusing.

So the issue is, you need two things from one of these. You need something that makes you a feruchemist, and then you need a metalmind that somebody else has filled with blank investiture, ok. Now if you can get pure investiture, that can be used by anybody, regardless, ok, you need it in pure form though. But, so there are some other tricks with this as well that don't make it...so anyway, you've got a couple of things that can go on. So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind, ok. That's the one you need to be...and everything else I'm hedging on intentionally, and I'm worried I hedged in a way that made it sound confusing, ok. So you know now what they're doing. You know that there are other things possible. But I don't want you to think that you have the explanations for how all those things happen, ok.

source

The power level is called out in the books. There are indeed "reserves" that change Wax's "level of Investiture," which would run out. He's using that to enhance his Steelpushing. But, like you said, the medallions work differently. They grant Investiture, they don't change the level of Investiture. There's a reserve that makes you more powerful, but is that the same phenomenon gives you power in the first place? And since it says "reserves," what other metals may be involved in that? It's not just nicrosil; that's been asked and shot down:

Quote

Necarion

The compounding trick that the Lord Ruler performed. When you're storing Investiture, are you storing your "Mistborn-ness" or all the powers individually?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the powers individually.

Necarion

Oh okay!

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the compounding trick. Really what's happening is you're fueling Feruchemy with the power of Allomancy, but you're filtering it through you, and then you're storing it.

Necarion

So it's not that you're a more powerful mistborn when you've tapped [investiture]

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question.

source

And you're already forgetting the new WoB I got. In a medallion, something is "taken, used, and returned." That's how I defined "like a coppermind" in my question, and those are the same words that Brandon fed back to me in the answer. The phenomenon of increasing your power is something that runs out. The phenomenon of gaining power is something that does not.

On 10/20/2018 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

The medallions are not supposed to be simple. We're past that stage of the Metallic Arts. If it's just nicrosil Feruchemy, how does anyone who's not a Soulbearer use one? What is duralumin needed? Why do they interfere with eCh other? Why is there a 3 power limit? Why do we need a flow chart for the explanation? 

Brandon just told us that he has to double check the steps needed to make blank connection, a tappable trait, and I find it hard to believe that that's somehow less complicated than the medallions. 

I just think at this point, that with everything that we've been told about the way the Metallic Arts are progressing, that a "simpler is better" approach to theories concerning the medallions is disregarding the things we've been told. 

Medallion creation is complex. There are a lot of questions to answer. The hint we're given in Bands is that there is some sort of Investiture manipulation, using "skill" to add your Investiture to an existing medallion, altering what is already there. How that's done is what's hard to understand. But why does using it have to be any more complicated than tapping?

To follow up on your comparison, blank connection is complicated to create. But is tapping it, like they do when using medallions, not duralumin Feruchemy? The final step may be straightforward, even if the entire process is complicated.

On 10/21/2018 at 11:21 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Marasi didn't call Wax an expert, just that he had a passion for the Metallic Arts. Either way, we know that when it comes to nicrosil he's not an expert at all since we basically saw the sum of his knowledge presented to him by VenDell. On the other hand, Allik's agreement isn't much of an agreement, it feels more like saying that he's generally right. Allik hasn't really corrected Wax unless it was presented as a direct question, which the issue of years was presented as. 

That makes even less sense. Wax hasn't said anything "generally right." By your view, he just completely whiffed on medallion mechanics.

The scene itself is not inconsistent with Wax being right. I will grant you that the scene itself is also not inconsistent with Wax being wrong. But man, you have to turn a lot of things on their head for the latter to be the case. The scene itself has no indication that Wax is wrong. If the goal is to fit a scene to a theory that appears to be contradicted, it will almost always be possible to do so. But this is just too many hoops to jump through for me.

[Spoolofwhool]

On 10/27/2018 at 4:30 PM, Pagerunner said:

That makes even less sense. Wax hasn't said anything "generally right." By your view, he just completely whiffed on medallion mechanics.

The scene itself is not inconsistent with Wax being right. I will grant you that the scene itself is also not inconsistent with Wax being wrong. But man, you have to turn a lot of things on their head for the latter to be the case. The scene itself has no indication that Wax is wrong. If the goal is to fit a scene to a theory that appears to be contradicted, it will almost always be possible to do so. But this is just too many hoops to jump through for me.

He's generally right in that the power to tap comes from the nicrosil and that the iron part of the medallion is just convenience for a place to store. You make good points though.