Popular Post skaa Posted January 16, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) While doing research on Seons, I re-read the scene where Hrathen was talking to the potions maker Forton via Seon. Forton is from Hrovell, one of the nations under the Fjordell Empire. Forton can apparently create potions that can counteract poisons that have no known antidote. He was also able to create potions that make someone temporarily look like a Fallen Elantrian. What I'm wondering is if Forton is just a very clever chemist, or if his potions are actually magical. If they are in fact Invested substances, it would imply that this is Hrovell's regional manifestation of Investiture. But if the potions are Invested, how would that work given the requirement of having specific shapes/forms in Selish Investiture? What would be the Forms behind Hrovell Investiture? I can think of a few possibilities: One is that the molecular properties of the potions act as the Form, but that sounds a bit too much like the Metallic Arts. Another is that Forton might be arranging potion ingredients in a certain way to activate their magical properties before combining them. Still another idea involves Hrovell's roughly circular shape: Perhaps the Forms exist in the way a potion is stirred, whether clockwise or counterclockwise, whether in full turns, half turns, etc as well as the duration of stirring. Yes, I know this sounds very Harry Potterish, but specific stirring directions did seem to exist in medieval potions recipes so Brandon might have been inspired by that. What do you guys think? Are Forton's potions Invested? What other ideas do you have regarding possible Forms in potions making? UPDATE: They are Invested. Edited January 18, 2016 by skaa 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 As sad as it may be, it may be that these potions may be Sanderson's only soft magic system. On the other hand, maybe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) I've always wondered whether anyone brothered to check the fake Elantrians for a pulse. If no pulse then I'd say its magic, because bodies don't work that way. Edited January 16, 2016 by natc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 I do seem to recall a magic system where one made potions, but they wouldn't "work" until they were frozen and thawed out. That doesn't seem to gel with the Selish magic systems we've already seen, though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 (edited) I've always wondered whether anyone brothered to check the fake Elantrians for a pulse. If no pulse then I'd say its magic, because bodies don't work that way. True, but even if the potion doesn't stop one's pulse, what kind of natural substance could turn someone's skin grey with black patches, while still being harmless and temporary? (That's not a rhetorical question. I am genuinely interested in knowing if such a substance exists. Any dermatologists in here?) Edited January 17, 2016 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Sel is not Earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 There are various drugs that can cause skin disorders in the real world so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that on an alien world with who knows what substances, you can find a combination that makes someone look close enough to an Elantrian to briefly fool the general public. Remember that nobody really wants to touch an Elantrian so they're not likely to look too closely beyond the surface impression. Presumably Sarene still had a pulse but nobody is likely to tell her that she's not supposed to have one so I think we can overlook that. Now if there was some confirmation that she didn't have one, that might be good evidence that there's something magical about the poison but as it stands, I think it's easier to just assume it caused a temporary skin condition that faded away once the poison worked its way through her system, nobody outside Elantris wanted to look closely enough and nobody inside had reason to be suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) @Weltall: What you said made sense, but I felt that the "it only looks like magic, but it's not" argument isn't very convincing in terms of Cosmere theory-making unless there really is a non-magical "real life" explanation. On the other hand, I didn't want to insist on the potions being Invested because, like you and Stormgate, I wasn't fully convinced of it either. I was on the fence, though tending towards the Invested side. So, I went ahead and asked Brandon, because why the heck not, right? And luckily, he answered. Forton's potions are Invested. Edited January 18, 2016 by skaa 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Well, that answers that. Bravo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Good job Skaa, it's nice to know that on Sel there are "many" manifestions of Investiture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Good job Skaa, it's nice to know that on Sel there are "many" manifestions of Investiture. Yeah, wouldn't it be great if all the regions within the Fjordell and Rose Empires each had a manifestation of Investiture? That would be pretty neat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zathoth Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 So, now we speculate on how they are invested exactly. I like your idea of stirring directions. I think that one makes the most sense. Another possibility is that certain plants in Hrovel have leaves in the shape of certain "Aons" and combining them is what makes the potion. I really like the idea of stirring patterns though. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) This is kind of amazing, Skaa. This is a magic system that's been staring us right in the face for a decade and we didn't even notice. (Not actually) related: I thought the thread title was "Are FORTRAN'S potions Invested" which was sure to be an interesting read. Nothing magical about FORTRAN, though it has a properly Sandersonian level of restrictions. Can you imagine casting a magic spell with the criteria that your command words can't have spaces between them? (actually a limitation of hardware and not the programming language, but let me have my fun) Edited January 18, 2016 by Pechvarry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Well, didn't Brandon liken the Aons and their modifiers to computer programming? So what language would Dakhor be? COBOL? Would Forgery be a manifestation of Javascript Investiture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Well, didn't Brandon liken the Aons and their modifiers to computer programming? So what language would Dakhor be? COBOL? Would Forgery be a manifestation of Javascript Investiture? I suspect that no form of accessing the Dor corresponds to any real-world programming language. Besides, Forgery is clearly based on Unity. Edited January 18, 2016 by Landis963 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Sorry if it was unclear but I was being entirely flippant there on correspondences. Maybe I should get a Hoid emoticon for when I feel especially snarky. Edited January 18, 2016 by Weltall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Sorry if it was unclear but I was being entirely flippant there on correspondences. Maybe I should get a Hoid emoticon for when I feel especially snarky. I use the emoticon myself when I want to convey flippancy. (forgot to add it to the previous post, sorry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) I like your idea of stirring directions. I think that one makes the most sense. Another possibility is that certain plants in Hrovel have leaves in the shape of certain "Aons" and combining them is what makes the potion. I really like the idea of stirring patterns though. The stirring idea was also my favorite. The ingredients of the potion should be important as well (otherwise he could just use water for his potions, and that doesn't seem right), just like how ink material is important in Forgery, so maybe there are special Hrovell plants for potion-making. Or maybe any fresh organic liquid will do (just like in Forgery). Also, I just realized this is my first ever theory post in the Elantris and Emperor's Soul forum since I joined here. Woohoo! *edits theory list in About Me page* Edited January 25, 2016 by skaa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Um... why did my post about Sel not being Earth go into red? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Well for one thing that point is irrelevant because Earth physics is still in play, as is carbon-based cellular biology and apparently the basics of organ systems like hearts and stomachs. So if a chemical that makes your skin go zombie is definitely harmful for one species then one that does the same thing to another probably isn't much healthier. I mean, skin shouldn't do that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecohansen Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 What about something like the medieval "doctrine of signatures"? Medieval herbalists believed that all plants were created for a purpose, and they would reveal that purpose with a "signature"--a clue hidden in their shape. So, liverworts have leaves shaped like livers, so they must be good for the liver. In other words, maybe potion-makers look for naturally-occurring glyphs in their ingredients. For instance, maybe pistils represent circular Hrovell, and your magic system is based on the arrangement of petals, sepals, and stamens around the pistil. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) Great catch, skaa! This discussion has made me think about some other aspects of Selish magic. It has been quite a while since I read Elantris, so I'm relying on the coppermind a lot here. If those with more recent memories of the book would correct my mistakes, I'd appreciate it. (Also, this will ramble a bit. I'm not trying to make a point, just reason through things out loud.)The main reason I initially thought that the potions wouldn't be invested is that Hrovell is part of the Fjordell Empire. I was working under the assumption that the regional manifestation of magic was tied to the cognitive identity of the region. That is, since Fjorden is a single nation-state, it would have a single expression of its magic (which we'd seen on-screen in the Dakhor monks). We know that your origin on Sel changes whether you can become an Elantrian, a Forger, etc. I was similarly attributing this to the cognitive identity of the individual, since we know that the investiture on Sel predominantly resides in the cognitive realm.On reflection, this was not a good assumption. You need to be born in or have bloodline from MaiPon to be a forger, and answers to other questions like this have involved the ideas of sDNA and spiritweb, your spiritual connection to places and things. The reliance of Selish magics on the physical shape of the land (mountains, chasms, etc.) suggests to me that the resemblance of Aons to the shape of Arelon the nation is an instance of shared cause, not cause and effect. That is, national boundaries tend to follow geographical features, so you would expect a nation's shape to appear in a symbol that derives from those same features. Cognitive identity as a nation or empire has, I now think, little if any effect on the regional manifestations. Skaa's discovery that Hrovell retains its unique manifestation (potions) despite having been subsumed by the greater Empire seems to support this. It's certainly possible that the inhabitants of Hrovell don't consider themselves fundamentally Fjorden, but more likely to me that the potions are in fact tied to the physical land of Hrovell, not the idea of Hrovell the country.On the topic of the potions, then, I am newly impressed with Forton's skill. We know that all Selish magics lose strength as they travel away from their own region, though AonDor is particularly dramatic in this regard. So for Forton to know how strong to tell the potion to be in order for it to imitate Elantrian appearance, then wear off after exactly the requested five days when used hundreds of miles away is astonishing accuracy.Which brings me to a question and a realization. First, what does it take to be initiated in any of these systems? The Shaod strikes with apparent randomness, and I don't have a sense for what percentages are hit. We don't know how many of Shai's people are forgers either. On Scadrial there are both unsnapped proto-allomancers and Snapped allomancers who haven't yet discovered their abilities, so I would imagine that similar situations occur here. I hope we learn more about that soon.The realization is that so far Selish magic has been very external in its effects, and remarkably mechanical. For example, a Forger must make the seal, but anyone can apply it. I wonder how much the distance you travel from MaiPon matters to the different stages of Forgery. Presumably Shai would run into difficulty trying to carve a seal if she had travelled to Hrovell, but if she tried to use a pre-carved stamp would it take? If she carried one of those stamped pots with her would the seal fail either immediately or faster than usual?Similarly, the potion, once made, was portable and usable by anyone. Only people from Arelon can be Elantrians, but the Aons they draw can heal anyone who comes. I suspect that the bones of Dakhor monks are similar, in that certain magic users are able to do the necessary chanting/shaping (sorry, don't really recall the process) but that they can do this to anyone's bones, not just people from the correct region. (Oooo, supponse an Arelon youth converts to Shu-Dereth and becomes a Dakhor monk, then returns home and gets taken by the Shaod. What happens then?)As for how you go about programming the potion to do what you want it to, I'm not sure. I like all of the proposals so far (stirring patterns, arranging ingredients, using materials--either ingredients or utensils--of the correct shape). An alternative could be the way you heat or cool it. Use specially shaped grilles over your fire to direct the heat at it, or submerge heated (or chilled) brands in the liquid to impart the properties. Edited January 19, 2016 by ccstat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I don't think MaiPonese ancestry is required to Forge anything, and we know that Dzhamar has their version of Forgery as well. It's just that stamps don't work if they are applied too far from MaiPon. Aonic ancestry is required to be eligible for the Shaod, but I didn't see any sort of similar requirement for any other Selish Investitures. In fact, I believe the only real requirement for Initiation in Selish Investitures other than AonDor is merely training, and being facile with the specific language necessary to make it work. I also suspect that, if the Aonic Dakhor monk you posit was actually the recipient of Dakhor powers, it would be very difficult for the Shaod to take hold (Much harder to Invest something that has already been Invested, remember?), and would probably make him ineligible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 A very interesting question is, what effects exactly the potions make. Is it something like a "temporal spiritweb code-change" as with Forgery, having a strong spiritual element? Or has it a more physical aspect and mostly affects the Physical Realm ? Sarene couldn't draw Aons, so I am with option 2. But then, there is a question if all the potions' effects wear off over time... if not, I'll send my enemies a potion that makes them a Hoed the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) I don't think MaiPonese ancestry is required to Forge anything, and we know that Dzhamar has their version of Forgery as well. It's just that stamps don't work if they are applied too far from MaiPon. Perhaps I'm mistaken. The coppermind says that both the Forger's spiritual connection and the distance from MaiPon are important: "It is necessary to be born in the area of MaiPon or have a bloodline connection to the area in order to have the requisite sDNA to forge an object. Like other Selish magics, the distance to MaiPon affects the amount of Investiture available, and thus Forgery is limited to the area around MaiPon."The cited reference for both claims is this WoB:"Birth in a certain location on Sel gives a certain affinity for the local symbols, and their usage. To use the magic of another region, one would need to have a rewritten connection to that area instead."That doesn't strictly say the same thing, so while I suspect there are other WoB that justify what was put on the coppermind, I don't have direct support for it. Edited January 19, 2016 by ccstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts