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Harmony and the 17th Shard


Guest Alaxel

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Okay. It's nearly 2am and this is an absolutely bare bones...I hesitate to even call it a hypothesis. A wild speculation, then. I promise that, tomorrow, after some rest, I will edit this post to be a little more...comprehensive.

One of the first things Sazed notes after using the power of both Preservation and Ruin is that the two belonged together. Then he wonders how they ever came to be seperated in the first place. Earlier he mentions sensing "shards of something ancient" that he alluded to as being the power of creation and/or god. Then he namedrops Adonalsium.

So if Sazed Believes Ruin and Preservation belonged together and senses other Shards out there and comes to learn, or at least suspects, what Adonalsium was, then perhaps he is formulating a plan to restore Adonalsium.

Perhaps, and this is the bulk of the wild speculation, the reason he designed Elendel the way he did, in such a symmetrical pattern, was so that if Elantrian's who traveled to Scadrial would be able to use Elendel like a different version of Elantris but powered by Harmony.

Yes, even as I write it I can think of a dozen reasons to shoot it down. At least, the Elendel and Elantris comparison. But I will go through with posting this in the intrest of slightly amusing some of you. Besides, perhaps it will inspire a great idea in someone. Anyway, I'll update this with quotes and such tomorrow (later today)

Edit One:

I forgot to mention the part of the speculation where Harmony is aiding the 17th Shard which is why he designed Elendel the way he did - so they could use it as a substitute Elantris, fueled by Harmony, to woldhop. It would explain what Demeoux was doing on Roshar with an Elantrian. But so would a half dozen other things. I'm really just fiending for Words of Radiance so badly that I'm desperately looking for Cosmere stuff everywhere.

 

Edit Two:

 

In the glaring light of late afternoon, this post doesn't look nearly as interesting as it did when it popped into my mostly sleeping mind.  So, I'll say that the Harmony using Elendel to fuel the AonDor for visiting Elantrians is a neat idea that may technically be possible, but that is extremely unlikely.  However, I do believe Harmony is going to start meddling in the Cosmere in general - in a way that you may not suspect.

 

 

"Even now, I can barely grasp the scope of all this.  The events surrounding the end of the world seem even larger than the Final Empire and the people within it.  I sense shards of something from long ago, a fractured presence, something spanning the void. I have delved and searched, and have only been able to come up with a single name: Adonasium.[sic] Who, or what, it was, I do not yet know.

- Harmony, Hero of Ages

 

So he can sense the other shards and is on the track to learning about Adonalsium.  It won't be long before he knows that it was shattered.  However, he seeks balance.  So reforming these Shards into Adonalsium itself would upset the current balance...

 

...or would it?

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 15th, 2013
Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)
CLAYTONPHILLIPS ()

Before Adonalsium shattered, was it consciously opposed by something, be it people or another cosmic force? Is whatever opposed it still around?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Yes.

I wish to god that whomever asked this question didn't throw in the '' be it people or another cosmic force?" because we already know that Adonalsium was opposed - it must have been in order to have been Shattered.  Unless the Shattering was a huge accident, but I just don't get that vibe.  Seems like a ''good initiative, bad judgement" kind of screw up.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Adonalsium was opposed by another cosmic force, which I think of as The Void.  The opposite of Adonalsium, or the power of creation, would be The Void - destruction only in the sense that it Unmakes.  Worse than entropy, because entropy ruins and decays things, but it doesn't cause them to cease to exist.  This part has absolutely NO supporting evidence - it's mostly a gut feeling I hope becomes contagious.  

 

A small amount of circumstantial evidence:

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 22nd, 2012 JOSH AND ERIC

So are Shards the most powerful thing in the Cosmere?

ADAM

Or is Adonalsium?

JOSH AND ERIC

No, no, let him RAFO the first one first, or he'll lump them together.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It depends on what you believe. The Shards are the most powerful things currently overtly manifest. There are those who would say there are other subtle forces being manifest. Most people in the know would say that Shards are the most powerful thing.

ADAM

Does Hoid believe that Shards are the most powerful thing?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You'll have to ask him sometime. [gives troll grin]. Or see him get asked something like that sometime. There's argument to be made that right now Harmony is the most powerful thing in the Cosmere.

 

This tells us that there is something out there more powerful than the Shards.  It's nearly certain, though I will allow for the probability that Brandon is just being tricksy.  However, his ''manifest'' comment made me pause.  What if Adonalsium was just a force of nature and it didn't have a consciousness like Shards of Adonalsium do?  It would be a complete whole, so its power left to its own devices would function as they were intended to and it wasn't until this force was shattered that it required consciousnesses to guide the powers left behind since they were out of balance.  I think of it much like if I were to take myself, make 15 clones, and do some fancy neurosurgery to cause each clone, and myself, to only be capable of feeling one particular emotion but also to feel it constantly.  They're all natural emotions, but without the others to balance them something like, say, fury would be left unchecked and that clone would require addition supervision to make sure it didn't do anything counter to my original intents.  Following me?  It's like Adonalsium currently has severe multiple personality disorders, but each personality exists and is singular in its purpose.  Okay, I'm hitting a tangent - back on topic.

 

If the Power of Creation was a natural force that was balancing out an opposing force, which I find to be a reasonable assumption, it would throw the entire Cosmere out of whack when Adonalsium was shattered.  Now the Void is doing whatever it is designed to do, which I assume is Unmaking things, and it's doing it completely unchecked because the Shards of Adonalsium can't see past their own Intents to stop it.

 

Harmony, if he becomes privy to this information (if any of it is factual) will realize that things are WAY out of balance and that Odium is committing petty mischief compared to the even larger story happening behind the scenes.  

Perhaps Odium hates everything so much, he wants to disable the shards so that this Void is left to work uncontested.  Mayhaps that's the origin of Odiums servants, the Voidbringers.  Maybe they're in the know as to what Odium plans to do, and thus the name Voidbring rather than, say, Hatebringer or Harbingers of Desolations etc.

 

So that's why I assume Demeoux is on Roshar looking for Hoid.  The 17th Shard wants to stop him because, though Hoid is likely working towards the same goal they are, they thing his methods are wrong.

Again, this is all speculation with the loosest of circumstantial evidence.  My basic points are this:

  • Adonalsium used to be opposed by a force; let's assume a cosmic one
  • In light of the presumable disaster of the Shattering, that's all anyone is focused on but this other force is still active
  • Harmony may catch wind and take steps to restore Adonalsium because Adonalsium, reformed, would be in harmony again with the force that opposed it.
Edited by Alaxel
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Interesting theory. Very interesting. He left the plans for Elendel in the Words of Founding, which means he would have had to design it really really fast, but that's not infeasible.

 

There's a lot of holes with the theory, but the fact that Galladon might be using illusion magic while on Roshar adds some credence to the idea that someone's helping out the Elantrians on every planet.

 

The question becomes more if he's a member of the 17th Shard or not. I believe we've had hints this is the case in WoBs, though nothing certain.

 

I wonder if the Dawncities on Roshar would help out Elantrians?

 

This theory is unlikely, but certainly not impossible. I like it.

Edited by Moogle
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As far as I know, there is no "Aon Aon" (the base point for all Aons) in the design of Elendel. Of course, it being a different Shardworld, perhaps the base Aon would be different. Maybe instead of mirroring the landscape, it would mirror locations of metal deposits or something.

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Mmmm.... this is a stretch, and I personally am gonna say no, but it's certainly plausible. We know that any Shard can power any magic system, it just seems to interfere with Sazed's baseline idea of not helping any one side over any other.

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As far as I know, there is no "Aon Aon" (the base point for all Aons) in the design of Elendel. Of course, it being a different Shardworld, perhaps the base Aon would be different. Maybe instead of mirroring the landscape, it would mirror locations of metal deposits or something.

 

Aon Aon is a design based on the landscape around Elantris, so it seems likely that Elantrian powers could work anywhere, you just have to find the right base Aon for the area around you in a ~10 mile radius or so. And you'd have to do a lot of trial and error to re-find the other Aons based on that shape, but it should be feasible.

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Do you have a WoB on AonDor being one-region-only specific? I don't recall the distinction being as clear cut as you're making it.

 

(Edit: to clarify, since I think I phrased this poorly, it seems pretty apparent that the Shaod only takes people living within Arelon or thereabouts. I just don't think we've got a WoB stating that once the Shaod takes you, you're tied to that one area. The idea that your sDNA would be altered to refer to a specific location seems incredibly odd to me. Furthermore, when Raoden ended up in Teod, a fair distance away from Elantris, he was not described as glowing less brightly or losing his altered appearance.

 

The powers of creation seem to be universal, and I would go so far as to say that the way the form-based magic of the Elantrians work is that you have to show/tell the AonDor how to do things, similar to commands with Awakening. The best way to do that is to hook it up to forms that already exist around you. Sort of like saying, "I'd like water. An example of what I want is like that lake over there." The farther away you get from the landmarks you're using to tell the system what to do, the weaker it gets. So you need a new set up landmarks, closer to you, to make things work.)

 

It's possible to get any magic system working on any planet. What are the possibilities for getting AonDor to work on other planets if not 'setting' a new region? A long ranged power transfer system from Elantris through space onto another planet? I'm drawing a blank here.

Edited by Moogle
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I think, if nothing else, the increasing number of deliberately designed cities across the Cosmere is worthy of discussion. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest these other cities were given functions based on their shape. Elantris' function is primarily the Elantrian effect, no doubt. Elendel creates fertility and uh... Soothing atmosphere. Perhaps Luthadel's similarly symmetrical design aided somehow in containing Ruin or the Well.

But regardless, I like the idea of Elantrians being able to tap into those geometries like their own town.

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Do you have a WoB on AonDor being one-region-only specific? I don't recall the distinction being as clear cut as you're making it.

 

(Edit: to clarify, since I think I phrased this poorly, it seems pretty apparent that the Shaod only takes people living within Arelon or thereabouts. I just don't think we've got a WoB stating that once the Shaod takes you, you're tied to that one area. The idea that your sDNA would be altered to refer to a specific location seems incredibly odd to me. Furthermore, when Raoden ended up in Teod, a fair distance away from Elantris, he was not described as glowing less brightly or losing his altered appearance.

 

The powers of creation seem to be universal, and I would go so far as to say that the way the form-based magic of the Elantrians work is that you have to show/tell the AonDor how to do things, similar to commands with Awakening. The best way to do that is to hook it up to forms that already exist around you. Sort of like saying, "I'd like water. An example of what I want is like that lake over there." The farther away you get from the landmarks you're using to tell the system what to do, the weaker it gets. So you need a new set up landmarks, closer to you, to make things work.)

 

It's possible to get any magic system working on any planet. What are the possibilities for getting AonDor to work on other planets if not 'setting' a new region? A long ranged power transfer system from Elantris through space onto another planet? I'm drawing a blank here.

We have WoB on magic on Sel being regional. I'll edit them in when I find them. But that isn't really needed. We have in-world descriptions of the Shaod only taking people from Arelon, or who are tied to Arelon in some way, (as you yourself pointed out), and Raoden mentions that his magic is considerably weaker in Teod then what it was in Arelon. When he tried to teleport back with Serene, he only managed to get down to the docs, even though the Aon equations were more or less the same.

 

EDIT: All the relevant quotes I found through a few quick searches on Theoryland:

Odium's_Shard

Can magic systems from one world work in any given other?

Brandon Sanderson

For some, it will take quite a bit of work, but it's possible to get them each to work. Sel's magics are regional, and so they are going to be tough. Scadrial's magics are the easiest.

<source>

Windrunner17

Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

Brandon Sanderson

Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel—much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

<source>

Viper

Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?

Brandon Sanderson

That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.

Viper

So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?

Brandon Sanderson

That's correct.

<source>

Edited by Aether
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I agree with Moogle.  I recall the WoB saying that it would be very challenging to use AonDor outside of Arelon.  This implied to me that it was possible.  The AonDor that Raoden used in Teod was based on Arelon's geography.  Thus using those symbols, it would function only in proximity to Arelon.  The idea presented by Alaxel is more that a new base for the Aons (other than Aon Aon) could be used in other regions and even worlds.  So, in the case of Elendel, this would be something on the order of concentric circles and four lines which intersect each other at the center of the circles.  This is similar to how several of us have theorized that forgery could be adapted by altering the last seal marking (which Shai describes as resembling MaiPon).

Edited by Shardlet
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I hope not. AonDor is overpowered already and has literally two restrictions. If making it work everywhere is not only possible, but that easy, the story will become incredibly boring.

It might not have that many theoretical restrictions, but it is really impractical to use in a real-time battle scenario, for example. I believe more or less all other systems would beat them one on one, as long as the Elantrian doesn't have time to prepare before the battle starts.

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It might not have that many theoretical restrictions, but it is really impractical to use in a real-time battle scenario, for example. I believe more or less all other systems would beat them one on one, as long as the Elantrian doesn't have time to prepare before the battle starts.

 

Sure, that sounds great in theory... except that Raoden, a man who isn't a warrior, a man with only a few days experience in successful AonDor, period, was drawing them two-handed rapid-fire in combat. Clearly, its difficulty is over-rated.

 

It takes him a matter of seconds to throw up a shield, which gives him enough time to Tia a hundred yards away, which certainly gives him enough time to draw the Aon for "go kill that person over there".

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I hope not. AonDor is overpowered already and has literally two restrictions. If making it work everywhere is not only possible, but that easy, the story will become incredibly boring.

 

Doesn't seem like it would be 'easy'.  You basically would have to discover how it can work wherever you go.  The only thing to go off of would be the base Aon.  It is conceivable that once you had it figured out for a few different regions you could maybe establish a pattern that would help intuit the symbols for a new region.  But, you are basically learning a new language from scratch each time.  Sounds like a hefty limitation to me. 

 

Also, Raoden may not be the best to describe a typical case.  If I recall he was far more innately skilled at accurately producing Aons in general.  Nobody else could hold a candle to him.

Edited by Shardlet
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I hope not. AonDor is overpowered already and has literally two restrictions. If making it work everywhere is not only possible, but that easy, the story will become incredibly boring.

 

Don't look at me - I didn't even really like Elantris, and I too thought the magic system was far too broad. Odd, considering Sanderson has made a 'law' stating that restrictions on magic make them more interesting. I sorta wish Elantris wasn't written, with more Mistborn in its place. It's more interesting from a theoretical Realmatic perspective than as an actual book to me.

 

I also don't think it's 'easy' to form a new Aon Aon and bunch of symbols based on that. You'd have to do trial and error for a lot of things, and not all geographies contain the same things. For example, the Aon for fire creation is based on the location of a natural gas fire near Arelon (if I recall). If there's nothing like that in your new location, it would be difficult to make a symbol tied to fire. I would go so far as to guess that setting up a new Aon language (or finding what's already there, depending on your perspective) would take months of hard, boring work, even if the geography is nice and easy to work with.

 

What's more, the average Elantrian is only powerful because Elantris is a power amplifier. Setting up an entire new city just to get your strength to decent levels is a lot of work.

 

Unless, of course, a Shard could help. I believe the original post brought this one up.

Edited by Moogle
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I'm 99% positive that Selian magic relies heavily on a person's cognative/spiritual national identity. They can only use the forms associated with the region of their heritage. Galladon has some Arelon blood, so that counts as a spiritual connection in my book.

 

So, a Selian would not be able to replace their forms with substitutes from a different region unless their Identity were rewritten.

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I personally think associating Elendel with AonDor is pushing it. I think it's made the way it is because Sazed thought it would look cool and be organizationally easiest for its residents.

 

While I doubt it has much if anything to do with AonDor (Really, Sazed was only getting an inkling during his ascension that there was more to the universe than dreamed of in his philosphy), I think there is some additional significance to its design.  I don't know what that may be yet, but I have noticed (as I'm sure others have before me) that is closely resembles the allomantic chart. 

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First i feel the need to defend Elantris yes AonDor is a little over powered but if you notice Brandon didn't use the magic system for like 90% of the book and is in fact the leading cause of problems for the main character most of the time.

As for how powerful it is ya its much better at support functions then attacking.

 

I think only Elantrians would be able to use Sel based magic due to the massive change to their body. the ability to create rifts to the spiritual realm could lend them to being able to use a lesser form of their power once they figured out how to make it work. That is assuming that the Elantrian in pure lake is in disguise and not just changed back to his original form due to his great distance from Sel. if you consider each magic system as directions for the were and how the spiritual energy is used creating new directions is possible just difficult. 

 

As for shard cities I like the idea but I think it may have more to due with a natural desire for symmetry inherent in each shard.

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I´d like to point out the possibility that Aondor is likely as powerful as it is since the shards are wrecked and out in the world, meaning all the power is avaliable.

 

And I figure time is a tradeoff. And Raoden is to elantrians what Vin are to mistborn. And try to hit an atium mistborn with Aon Daa;).

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I updated my old post, if anyone is interested.  Moar unfalsifiable claims and gut feelings!

I imagine that a city like Elendel wouldn't be the source of the power in itself, but act more like a relay station and thus be incorporated into the design of the Aons they draw and that Harmony would somehow assist in the access of the original power through Elendel.  Although Occam's Shardblade suggests that Shards likely just enjoy symmetry when they design cities.

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