theory Szeth is a former Stone Shaman

[Oversleep]

It's a pure theory, but...

First, why give a Honorblade to somebody you are about to banish and sell into slavery?

I think there are ten Stone Shamans (one for each of the Blades and one leader without one), and they're bonded with the Blades. And it would be against the rules to make Szeth give back his own.

Also, if Szeth was a Stone Shaman, he probably had access to more knowledge and that's why he interpreted the facts and announced that Desolation is coming. That's why it was so terrible for all Shins, since one of their high priests had gone mad (or so they thought).
So they made him a Truthless and they were waiting for this mechanism to kill him (since he was to be a slave, and slaves doesn't live long). They would reclaim his Blade when he would die, and choose another Stone Shaman.

The problem was, that Truthless usually doesn't have Honorblades, so he survived, time and time again... until Kaladin happened.

As for Nalan, maybe he considered them taking Honorblades a theft and killed the one who had his Blade, so he hadn't had any difficulties with reclaiming it. Maybe he considers Honorblades to obey only laws of Almighty, and He gave them to Heralds, so he is still working while obeying the law.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Oversleep

[DreamEternal]

It's a pure theory, but...

First, why give a Honorblade to somebody you are about to banish and sell into slavery?

I think there are ten Stone Shamans (one for each of the Blades and one leader without one), and they're bonded with the Blades. And it would be against the rules to make Szeth give back his own.

That is ibteresting, but most likely false. There is no clue on how many Stone Shamans there are, and whatever the keepers of the honorblades are a subgroup of them or all of them.

Also, if Szeth was a Stone Shaman, he probably had access to more knowledge and that's why he interpreted the facts and announced that Desolation is coming.

I agree with this part.

That's why it was so terrible for all Shins, since one of their high priests had gone mad (or so they thought).

I don't think it would be like that. If every insane Shin was given a sword, a rock, and deported, then shin slave-warriors wouldn't be so unheard off.

I think Truthlessness is a very specific punishment for raising the alarm wrongly.

The fact Szeth refers to what he did as raising the alarm and that in his narration he mentions that the Shamanate told him "The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant have fallen. We are all that remains." makes me think the Stone Shamanate wad created to guard the honorblades and knowledge ofbthe Desolations until the True Desolation, but they grew drunk with power and turned the whole Shin society into an isolationist cult dedicated to serving them.

If an acolyte like Szeth convinced the people of Shinovar that the True Desolation was indeed coming, they would be forced to lose their power, so they simply told him he was wrong. After all, he was one of the most loyal members of the most brainwashed group of fanatics in Roshar. If the cult leaders told him he was wrong, he was. Denying that would mean denying the pillars if his warped reality.

So, as tradition dictates, for the crime of almost waking Shinovar up too soon he was to condemn his own soul.

Edited November 29, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oversleep]

That is ibteresting, but most likely false. There is no clue on how many Stone Shamans there are, and whatever the keepers of the honorblades are a subgroup of them or all of them.

Anyway, my theory is that Szeth was one of the holders of the Honorblades. Doesn't matter how many people were Stone Shamans

I don't think it would be like that. If every insane Shin was given a sword, a rock, and deported, then shin slave-warriors wouldn't be so unheard off.

I think Truthlessness is a very specific punishment for raising the alarm wrongly.

Well, it's not about him being insane, of course. It's about claiming that Apocalypse is coming back. And for that they are given Oathstone and made into slaves. Having a Honorblade is a consequence of being holder of it, they cannot take it fromm him.

 

If an acolyte like Szeth convinced the people of Shinovar that the True Desolation was indeed coming, they would be forced to lose their power, so they simply told him he was wrong. After all, he was one of the most loyal members of the most brainwashed group of fanatics in Roshar. If the cult leaders told him he was wrong, he was. Denying that would mean denying the pillars if his warped reality.

So, as tradition dictates, for the crime of almost waking Shinovar up too soon he was to condemn his own soul.

It may be because of losing power, but if somebody was to claim that Apocalypse, which ravaged this world countless times before was about to return, it would also be a crime in and of itself. If he was one of the high priests, he would have political power... that's why it was so bad for them

Edited November 29, 2015 by Oversleep

[Shardbearer]

We have an interlude that indicates that all Shin warriors have oathstones. So maybe becoming Truthless is a common punishment for crimes. The question remains whether Szeth had the Honorblade before or after he was declared Truthless.

[DreamEternal]

We have an interlude that indicates that all Shin warriors have oathstones. So maybe becoming Truthless is a common punishment for crimes. The question remains whether Szeth had the Honorblade before or after he was declared Truthless.

No, truthless are different from common warrior-slaves. In the WoK Rysn interlude it is said it is forbidden to sell a normal Shin warrior to foreigners, but this does not apply to to a truthless. Who knows what else is different?

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Any Shin who even touches a weapon is forced to be a virtual slave, gets an oathstone and is traded around between Shin farmers.

So I highly doubt that their religious leaders would hold an Honorblade, even if their purpose is to protect the blades.

 

The Shin also have some pretty strict rules about the truth, so much so that they turn haggling on its head to be as honest as can be.

Maybe Szeth's sin wasn't just that he lied (or was thought to be lying), but that they considered what he claimed (the desolations coming back) to be such an immense lie that the shamans declared there was no truth left in Szeth, therefore: truthless.

 

 

 

I think there are ten Stone Shamans (one for each of the Blades and one leader without one), and they're bonded with the Blades. 

There's a maximum of eight blades the Shin could have: 10 minus Taln and one other (unspecified) Herald who reclaimed his blade after abandoning it.

[DreamEternal]

Any Shin who even touches a weapon is forced to be a virtual slave, gets an oathstone and is traded around between Shin farmers.

So I highly doubt that their religious leaders would hold an Honorblade, even if their purpose is to protect the blades.

Cult leaders often make themselves exempt from their own rules. I wouldn't assume the Stone Shamans aren't hypocrites.

[Unodus]

If Szeth was a stone shaman, that'd explain why he's so adamant about walking on unsacred stone

[Oversleep]

Any Shin who even touches a weapon is forced to be a virtual slave, gets an oathstone and is traded around between Shin farmers.

So I highly doubt that their religious leaders would hold an Honorblade, even if their purpose is to protect the blades.

 

The Shin also have some pretty strict rules about the truth, so much so that they turn haggling on its head to be as honest as can be.

Maybe Szeth's sin wasn't just that he lied (or was thought to be lying), but that they considered what he claimed (the desolations coming back) to be such an immense lie that the shamans declared there was no truth left in Szeth, therefore: truthless.

 

 

 

There's a maximum of eight blades the Shin could have: 10 minus Taln and one other (unspecified) Herald who reclaimed his blade after abandoning it.

Well, at first they had 9 Blades (unless Darkness went back for his immediately after Kalak and Jezrien walked away in Prelude).

Also, there is no better way to protect something so valuable than bonding to it. They don't have to use them, they maybe locked away somewhere, and when they find out that something was stolen (I picture a weekly ritual to check if the Blades are in place) they simply need to summon to their hands. Unstealable, unless you kill the Stone Shaman. But the Stone Shaman is a holder of Honorblade, what makes him hard to kill.

Cult leaders often make themselves exempt from their own rules. I wouldn't assume the Stone Shamans aren't hypocrites.

They are to protect the Blades, it doesn't contradict the rule against using weapons.

[baby]

I can't seem to remember if we know where Szeth's Honorblade is now. Anybody know?

[Shardbearer]

Kaladin took it, and I think gave it to Dalinar.

[Stormgate]

Kaladin took it, I don't remember what happens next.

[Oversleep]

The last time we see Windrunners' Honorblade is in Urithiru when Kaladin sticks it in the ground dramatically before Dalinar, while telling him that he killed the Assassin. I haven't read any of the Book 3 chapters, though.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Oversleep

[Confused]

Interesting theory. I proposed something similar last summer. That post - "Stone Shamans Are Heralds in Waiting" - had too much in it to paraphrase here, but that theory and yours are consistent.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Confused

[hoser]

We have an interlude that indicates that all Shin warriors have oathstones. So maybe becoming Truthless is a common punishment for crimes. The question remains whether Szeth had the Honorblade before or after he was declared Truthless.

The following quotes indicate otherwise to me. 

I believe that Szeth's Truthlessness is a singular event and he was given the sword as part of his punishment. 

 

“You couldn’t trade me a soldier, could you?” Vstim asked as they waited. “They cannot be sold to an outsider, I am afraid.” “But there was that one you traded me…” “It’s been nearly seven years!” Thresh said with a laugh. “And still you ask!” “You don’t know what I got for him,” Vstim said. “And you gave him to me for practically nothing!” “He was Truthless,” Thresh said, shrugging. “He wasn’t worth anything at all. You forced me to take something in trade, though to confess, I had to throw your payment into a river. I could not take money for a Truthless.” “Well, I suppose I can’t take offense at that,” Vstim said, rubbing his chin. “But if you ever have another, let me know. Best servant I ever had. I still regret that I traded him.” “I will remember, friend,” Thresh said. “But I do not think it likely we will have another like him.” He seemed to grow distracted. “Indeed, I should hope that we never do….”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 436). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Another trap? “You have done your work well,” the king said, still not facing him. “Leaders dead, lives lost. Panic and chaos. Was this your destiny? Do you wonder? Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, cast out and absolved of any sin your masters might require of you?” “I am not absolved,” Szeth said, still wary. “It is a common mistake stone-walkers make. Each life I take weighs me down, eating away at my soul.” The voices… the screams… spirits below, I can hear them howling…. “Yet you kill.” “It is my punishment,” Szeth said. “To kill, to have no choice, but to bear the sins nonetheless. I am Truthless.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 973). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Oversleep]

I just read the changes Brandon did in WoR... And this particular quote is in line with my theory that Stone Shamans bond with Honorblades. It seems that they even use them!
Before:

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.”

Now:

Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”

[Oversleep]

Going a little tangential here, but why everyone think that Shins culture is sect-like and Shamanate are like cult leaders?

[DreamEternal]

Going a little tangential here, but why everyone think that Shins culture is sect-like and Shamanate are like cult leaders?

Because of their isolationism and how sure they were of Szeth's obedience, like it was expected of every Shin.

Plus, a priest governed society where people who touch weapons willingly give up their freedom? And none of them refuse?

And how they see everyone outside Shinovar as a sinner, because *gasp* there is no soil outside Shinovar, so they step on stones. So leaving because you disagree will damnation your soul.

And how they find it OK to send a living weapon of mass destruction for outsisers to kill one another with.

They sure aren't an accepting, open-minded society.

[Oversleep]

When Nin spoke to Szeth, Szeth mentioned the Shin had Shards and he would need Shards to fight them he said the Shinovar peoples Stone Shamans were powerful enough to reclaim the Honorblade from whoever had killed him. This seems to imply a great level of skill and not just Braggadocio. Also they are allowed to use weapons, it's just when they pick one up they have to live the rest of their lives as warrior.

[yurisses]

I just read the changes Brandon did in WoR... And this particular quote is in line with my theory that Stone Shamans bond with Honorblades. It seems that they even use them!

Before:

Now:

 

WHAT!

 

I never knew this part changed! All this time I thought it was just the way Szeth died! That's huge!

[scifan]

The theory seems plausible... we'll have to see how close to the mark you are...

[The Ninja Yodeler]

I agree with everyone who says they made him Truthless because they thought he was lying/wrong about the Final Desolations coming. But, I think the reason he has an Honorblade is because they consider it the most dangerous weapon they have. Which would probably make it the most shameful weapon to ever touch. Why not force a Truthless to bond it? I don't think he already had it bonded because he was a stone shaman.

[Oversleep]

If their purpose is to guard Honorblades, I doubt they would made somebody who was to be sold into slavery and banished bond one. It just doesn't make sense.
But if he was already bonded to it, however...

[The Ninja Yodeler]

If their purpose is to guard Honorblades, I doubt they would made somebody who was to be sold into slavery and banished bond one. It just doesn't make sense.

But if he was already bonded to it, however...

Yeah I was thinking it didn't hold up when I remembered Szeth is a beast with Lashings from the very first time we see his POV. I doubt he would be so skilled if he wasn't already bonded to it before becoming Truthless.

[Elementalist]

He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

Szeth is confident that Stone Shamans are powerful enough to defeat whomever killed him. Given that such an individual would likely be incredibly skilled in order to kill Szeth, and would possess Szeth's Honorblade on top of that, this implies that the Shamans have some sort of trump card- possibly Honorblades of their own. Edited March 7, 2016 by Elementalist