Allomancy, E=mc^2, and the Law of Conservation of Energy.

[Thermophile]

Okay. Allomancy has been declared to be end-positive a lot of times. This means that it does not follow the Law of Conservation of Energy, causing more energy to enter the system then was originally there. This is okay, because this is magic. However E=mc^2 means that each kilogram of mass amounts to roughly 9 x 10^16. A metal flake is nowhere near a kilogram. Let's say a metal flake is a ten thousandth of a kilogram, to be conservative. That still means that a metal flake would need to give more than 10^13 joules. That's ten trillion joules. Yikes. Unfortunately, it is difficult to convert the energy used in allomancy due to the unusual outputs, scientifically speaking. However, there is one metal that transfers metal almost directly from allomantic power into calculable work: iron/steel. Now, the best chance we get (I think) to measure the energy potential of steel is when Vin is doing the horseshoe trick to get to Luthadel. She spent roughly five hours doing it and used 'almost all of her iron and steel'. I'm not going to be calculating iron, since she wasn't spending as much energy pulling in the horseshoes, and was probably wasting a lot of the energy potential. She was keeping herself aloft on average so that makes the energy output somewhat easy to calculate.

 

 

Let's assume Vin weighs rougly 150 pounds, or 68 kilograms. This means it would take just over 666 watts to keep her afloat (yes, that is what I got). Over the course of 5 hours, this adds up to roughly 12 million, or 1.2 x 10^7 joules. This is six orders of magnitude away from the energy the mass of the metal contained. At this point, it seems like allomancy should be classified as end-negative. What's really going on here?

 

 

At first, I thought that the metal may just revert into an inert state, or change into a different element. However, considering what happened at towards end of the third book, I find this unlikely. What I propose is that when metal is burned, the metal itself is returned into the earth. After all, it contains a bit of Ruin and Preservation, so the energy must return to its source, aka, the earth. This means that when an allomancer uses metal, that metal appears back in whatever mine it was taken out of.

 

 

 

What do you guys think?

[EdroGrimshell]

WoB has the metals returning to Scadrial in some fashion when burned.

 

Also, Vin's barely 5ft tall, the average for that height is 90-110lbs, 150lbs is overweight, even with her clothes and the horseshoes included, it'd be about 130lbs maximum. I'd imagine she's on the lighter side too, so I'd put it more likely at around 100-110lbs for how much she weighed in that particular scenario. Just a nitpick more than anything else, I do like the look of the analysis.

[natc]

Well, for one thing the investiture does not come from the metal to begin with (god metals aside), and for another the metal was not kinetically (is that even a word?) invested, so the starting investiture was basically the baseline set by your spiritweb's existence, and the inflow of power increases that, which is positive change.

[Thermophile]

 it'd be about 130lbs maximum.

I totally pulled 150lb out of thin air. I was overestimating, since I didn't want to get below just on account of getting Vin's weight wrong (I was pretty confident about the numbers not matching up. Kenetic energy just doesn't have that much energy).

[baby]

Yeah as natc said, the energy is coming straight from preservation and its end positive because the user is gaining more energy than they expended so it's end positive for them. Energy isn't being created in this instance.

[Thermophile]

I'm not sure that's what end-positive means. Obviously, aeons create energy, as the shards aren't being consumed through use. With that logic, cars would be end-positive, since you didn't put in the work to create the fuel.

 

I think end-positive means you're getting energy from nothing in particular. This breaks the Law of Conservation of Mass, but I'm not holding fantasy novels to that.

[senick67]

Agreed but the Shards power has to recharge so it wouldn't be end positive at all. BRIDGE FOUR!

[Thermophile]

Sure it has to recharge, but the energy created through its use does not go away.

[Jondesu]

I'm not sure that's what end-positive means. Obviously, aeons create energy, as the shards aren't being consumed through use. With that logic, cars would be end-positive, since you didn't put in the work to create the fuel.

I think end-positive means you're getting energy from nothing in particular. This breaks the Law of Conservation of Mass, but I'm not holding fantasy novels to that.

Brandon has stated that Investiture follows it's own version of the laws of conservation, so I'm sure the energy is derived from somewhere rather than being created. However, mass doesn't really have to enter into it from a power perspective, only the duration. The mass affects how quickly they can burn the metal, but the power is only unlocked by that metal. It flows from Preservation directly, or possibly also from some type of innate Investiture the planet itself has (that part is hazy. No pun intended.).

Edit: The power, once used, also then returns to Preservation, to be used again. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

jW

Edited November 29, 2015 by Jondesu

[Thermophile]

Matter is literally just a form of energy. All energy has mass, but only matter has enough to really matter (pun intended).

Edited November 29, 2015 by Thermophile

[Voidus]

WoB has the metals returning to Scadrial in some fashion when burned.

 

Also, Vin's barely 5ft tall, the average for that height is 90-110lbs, 150lbs is overweight, even with her clothes and the horseshoes included, it'd be about 130lbs maximum. I'd imagine she's on the lighter side too, so I'd put it more likely at around 100-110lbs for how much she weighed in that particular scenario. Just a nitpick more than anything else, I do like the look of the analysis.

There's actually some conflicting WoBs on whether the metal sticks around or not, it caused quite a bit of a problem for some of us. 

[baby]

In Allomancy, you (the user) is gaining power. Thus, end positive. You hadn't stored power like Feruchemy or stole like hemalurgy.

[natc]

So back to the car. You have this car, it's the system we are using as the frame of reference. Obviously not a closed one, as you're putting gas in it from outside.

So you put the gas in it, and you've got potential energy to work with now. More than before. You start driving and that's converted to motion. It's still more energy than just an empty car, and it'll never go below the original empty baseline unless you go annihilate the parts into energy (just why?) or scrap some pieces. Eventually you run out of gas, strand yourself on the interstate like an idiot, and are back to . . . however much energy is used to form the matter of the car at all. The fuel escaped as exhaust all the while and disappated.

You have an allomancer. You start with however much investiture constitutes his spiritweb and the matter forming his cells. That's the system we're defining as a reference. You burn, pouring Preservation (or metabolized atium) into the allomancer, investing him. His powers use that investiture to do their magics, like how the car goes forward. All this time, from the first time the allomancer uses his powers to the day he kicks the bucket, he is more invested than the baseline human. You run out if metal, the flow stops, and you're back to normal with no magic, looking like a fool. The investiture probably escapes into the environment, incorpirated into newborn baby souls, shards, atium, what have you.

You can't just take the entire cosmere into account, because investiture cannot be created or destroyed as far as we know. Only end neutral will exist, and it's the same for energy in the real world. Science doesn't work like that. The thermometer you stuck in the test tube to track a reaction in a chemistry lab is used to track change of heat of that reaction alone, not the whole universe (which will be 0 anyway). Science is relative, you need to define the frame of reference first.

Edited November 29, 2015 by natc

[Thermophile]

So back to the car. You have this car, it's the system we are using as the frame of reference. Obviously not a closed one, as you're putting gas in it from outside.

So you put the gas in it, and you've got potential energy to work with now. More than before. You start driving and that's converted to motion. It's still more energy than just an empty car, and it'll never go below the original empty baseline unless you go annihilate the parts into energy (just why?) or scrap some pieces. Eventually you run out of gas, strand yourself on the interstate like an idiot, and are back to . . . however much energy is used to form the matter of the car at all. The fuel escaped as exhaust all the while and disappated.

You have an allomancer. You start with however much investiture constitutes his spiritweb and the matter forming his cells. That's the system we're defining as a reference. You burn, pouring Preservation (or metabolized atium) into the allomancer, investing him. His powers use that investiture to do their magics, like how the car goes forward. All this time, from the first time the allomancer uses his powers to the day he kicks the bucket, he is more invested than the baseline human. You run out if metal, the flow stops, and you're back to normal with no magic, looking like a fool. The investiture probably escapes into the environment, incorpirated into newborn baby souls, shards, atium, what have you.

You can't just take the entire cosmere into account, because investiture cannot be created or destroyed as far as we know. Only end neutral will exist, and it's the same for energy in the real world. Science doesn't work like that. The thermometer you stuck in the test tube to track a reaction in a chemistry lab is used to track change of heat of that reaction alone, not the whole universe (which will be 0 anyway). Science is relative, you need to define the frame of reference first.

 

Unless I misread this, I don't feel like you really addressed the point of this topic. I have heard that metal is more of a 'focus' for the allomancy, rather than the real component. The real component for allomancy is using the investiture you posses to cause an effect (which increases the total energy in the world). You don't lose investiture, otherwise, instead of becoming savants, people would become weaker. The energy generated by allomancy (unless you count compounding, but I think some sort of amplification is going on there) is much less than the energy contained in the matter. The law of conservation of energy would dictate that the energy has to go somewhere, and if the metal does return into the ground, that would allow there to be energy gained rather than lost. Unless less metal goes into the ground than was burned, but I don't want to get into that until I'm ready to make an argument that all magic systems are actually end-negative.

 

Of course, I could have just completely misunderstood you, so if I did, sorry.

[Edgedancer]

You are right that if we concentrate on physical energy aside from Investure then yes, Allomancy actually destroys more than it adds, especially given that appart from physical metals the investiture in Allomancy creates a non physical effect and then flows back to the Shard, not actually increasing the amount of Investiture/energy in the system.

 

Of course this depends on wheter or not metal returns to the planet on which we have contradicting information.

[Thermophile]

Grimshell seems to think that they do return in some fashion, although I do not have access to WoB myself.

[Edgedancer]

Grimshell seems to think that they do return in some fashion, although I do not have access to WoB myself.

I don't have the older WoB but recently in the Oak Brook Signing Brandon gave us this WoB.

 

32:20]

Q: Is metal a renewable resource on Scadrial, or is it going to run out?

A: It does run out.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

The term end-positive (and end-neutral and end-negative) refers to the user of the power, not the amount of power in the system.

(because investiture cannot be created or destroyed, but it can be changed from one form to another)

 

Allomancy is end-positive because the allomancer gets power (in the form of a metal's effect) without expending an internal resource.

Feruchemy is end-neutral because the feruchemist only gets as much power as he initially expended when storing.

Hemalurgy is weird, because it doesn't seem like you expend anything at all when you steal an ability, even though that ability degrades inside the spike.

(Also note that when you gain an allomantic ability through hemalurgy, that ability itself is still end-positive)

[Yata]

The term End-Positive, End-Neutral or End-Negative as Ookle the Wookie says is all about the Investiture's point of view.

The fact that quite all the Magic System that we saw until now are End-Positive give you a lot of "case of use" about the Magic.

If I didn't wrong there is just 2 End-Neutral magic System with the current books and the Hemalurgy as only know End-Negative.

 

Therefore a Magic System that give you a lot of Investiture while you consume a less amount of Investiture (the metals) is an End-Positive.

[Oversleep]

Well, maybe enthropy is different in cosmere.
For example, the Well Of Ascension - they did some serious usage of the power like moving a freaking planet closer/further from the Sun. This requires so much energy that some Allomancy doesn't even count in comparison. Still, the power of the Shard remains unchanged, as it refills. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed (I often wonder what happens to the charge in melted metalmind), it seems that this energy somehow is replenished. Maybe entrophy forms some kind of a cycle like Investiture -> something-> many different transformations of energy -> Investiture.
In our universe the universal product of entrophy is heat.

Maybe cosmere has different set of law o physics in that matter and there is a mechanism converting the final energy product back into Investiture.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Oversleep

[Yata]

Oversleep we know that all the investiture "spent" by the Magic User turn after some time to the Shard.

We have proof of this "standard cycle" with the Well of Ascension or the Pit of Hatsin (all the Atium burned return to the Pit to re-grow".

 

 

The only things in the Cosmere that may change the nature of Investiture (as far as I know) is Nightblood and whatever The Blade does at the Investiture drained. But this is pure speculation.

[Thermophile]

Investiture is constant, but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to Investiture that creates energy without permanently expending itself (meaning most forms of investiture).

[Oversleep]

Oversleep we know that all the investiture "spent" by the Magic User turn after some time to the Shard.

We have proof of this "standard cycle" with the Well of Ascension or the Pit of Hatsin (all the Atium burned return to the Pit to re-grow".

I know. But what I was wondering about is how does it work? With Steelpushing, you convert Investiture into kinetic energy (and some heat due to air friction). Because of physical processess some day all of energy will become heat, but in cosmere it doesn't work like that since Investiture is spent, yet somehow is constant. The question is, how this "standard cycle" of Investiture works.

 

Investiture is constant, but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to Investiture that creates energy without permanently expending itself (meaning most forms of investiture).

 

Exactly this.

[killersquirrel59]

Your premise here is flawed. The energy powering Allomancy is not being created, it is being transferred from the Shard Preservation. It is not contained in the metal itself, therefore, your calculations of mass to energy based on the amount of metal are irrelevant. The metal acts as a key of sorts, unlocking access to the stream of energy coming from Preservation. There is a calculable amount of energy gained when burning metal, but this follows very different conservation laws than the standard E=MC ².

 

To address your other point, Allomancy being end-positive, this is in reference to the Allomancer himself. The Allomancer is not spending any of his own energy to accomplish Allomantic feats. Instead all of the energy is coming directly from Preservation.

[Thermophile]

First Law of Thermodynamics amounts to this: If energy exits an enclosed system, the energy in that system must decrease by that amount. This is the fundamental law that nealry all forms of magic in fiction break, as the magic is not permanentely consumed in the process. Again, this is fine, nobody should hold magic fully to the laws of physics. My point was that as the metal dissapears (as it seems to), the energy (or mass. The two are technically the same) in the enclosed system of the planet would reduce far more than it is increased by the use of allomancy. This is unusual for end-positive magic systems, which leads me to believe that the metal returns to the earth after use, just like atium.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Thermophile