Surgebinding vs Allomancy

[Voidus]

Sure but what I want to propose was another tatcic.

A Windrunner or a Skybreaker may touch some big object and Infused with a lot of Reverse Lash. From that moment the object had a Great gravitational pull that may bend the object shoot to the RK and create confusion to the Mistborn's Anchors. In all this chaos the RK may use Gravitational Surge to be unaffected by the Reverse Lash.

With this strategy the RK may be safe for any long range attack of the Mistborn (if he is smart enough to not stay near the "mini-Black Hole").

 

I am sorry to explain myself bad. 

You can't not stay near it, they have to be in constant contact with the object to produce the Lashing.

And unlike regular arrows or spears a Mistborn pushed coin has a constant force acting on it from the Mistborn so it's only going to keep accelerating. Plus they can push or pull on it again as much as needed so once it's hit the ground/whatever the Windrunner is Reverse Lashing they can just pull it back up again.

[Unite Them]

For clarification a lashing is usually a multiplier of gravity correct?  As in you are just changing the origin of gravity and its strength yes?

So if you were to lash someone to the sky they would fly up at the same speed they would normally fall.  However if you double-lashed them to the sky they would fly upwards at twice the normal fall-rate.  Is this correct?

 

Also is there a limit to the number of lashings you can apply to the same object?

 

With this in mind which is stronger?  A duralimin enhanced push or a multiple lashed object?

Do we have any quantitative numbers on this?

 

That's it for my twenty questions.  I really wish we had Shallan or Sazed here to study this.

[Charononus]

We are not sure that Distance-Soulcasting is a common trat of the Trasformation Surge. It can be the effect of the Trasformation Surge using the Trasportation Surge to get the target without touch it.

That's why I said possibly. Even without it, self healing, illusions, and a shardblade would be an opponent right out of a nightmare.

[Hemalurgist]

I think the only limit to the amount of lashings is the amount of stormlight you have. So after x number of lashings a multiple lashed object would be stronger.

[Yata]

You can't not stay near it, they have to be in constant contact with the object to produce the Lashing.

And unlike regular arrows or spears a Mistborn pushed coin has a constant force acting on it from the Mistborn so it's only going to keep accelerating. Plus they can push or pull on it again as much as needed so once it's hit the ground/whatever the Windrunner is Reverse Lashing they can just pull it back up again.

If I am not wrong, a Referse Lashing don't require constant contact after you infused it. Once Szeth didn't use it with a object that he launched to an enemy ? (A Shardbearer if I remember right).

[Voidus]

If I am not wrong, a Referse Lashing don't require constant contact after you infused it. Once Szeth didn't use it with a object that he launched to an enemy ? (A Shardbearer if I remember right).

Nope, he's done that with a Full Lashing but not a Reverse Lashing.

[The Honor Spren]

A tie. I can't see either Kaladin or Vin losing in a fight like this.

[Cadmium]

Another facet y'all haven't discussed is that Windrunners (and all radiants) are bound by their ideals.  Not saying this would be easy, but if  Kelsier (or the Mistborn/Twinborn in question) has prior knowledge of his opponent and wished to "fight dirty", you only have to place a Windrunner in a place where they aren't aligned with the third ideal (or any ideal, perhaps) and whoops, Radiant loses abilities and it's game over man.  Game. Over.

So that's another limiting factor that might swing the pendulum toward the Scadrian over the Rosharan.

But it's also difficult to fight with a glass knife if your arm has been severed by an honorblade, so lots of the points above have good merit.

[tobar14]

For clarification a lashing is usually a multiplier of gravity correct?  As in you are just changing the origin of gravity and its strength yes?

So if you were to lash someone to the sky they would fly up at the same speed they would normally fall.  However if you double-lashed them to the sky they would fly upwards at twice the normal fall-rate.  Is this correct?

 

Also is there a limit to the number of lashings you can apply to the same object?

I believe that a basic lashing directly upwards would make you weightless, because there is still the regular gravity pulling you towards the planet. In order to fly upwards at 9.8 m/s squared, you would have to put a double lashing towards the sky.

 

No upper limit, just uses stormlight faster. Although I am unsure if there is anything like diminishing returns involved.

[Edgedancer]

I believe that a basic lashing directly upwards would make you weightless, because there is still the regular gravity pulling you towards the planet. In order to fly upwards at 9.8 m/s squared, you would have to put a double lashing towards the sky.

 

No upper limit, just uses stormlight faster. Although I am unsure if there is anything like diminishing returns involved.

The first lashing is just the redirection of the regular spiritual gravity bond thingy people already have and doesn't add gravity, as such it is a half lashing upwards for weightlesness. A full lashing would indeed make someone fall upwards.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Edgedancer

[tobar14]

The first lashing is just the redirection of the regular spiritual gravity bond thingy people already have and doesn't add gravity, as such it is a half lashing upwards for weightlesness. A full lashing would indeed make someone fall upwards.

That sounds right, my B

[Rockbud]

I believe that a basic lashing directly upwards would make you weightless, because there is still the regular gravity pulling you towards the planet. In order to fly upwards at 9.8 m/s squared, you would have to put a double lashing towards the sky.

No upper limit, just uses stormlight faster. Although I am unsure if there is anything like diminishing returns involved.

If you're calculating, remember Rosharian gravity is less than Earth's.

Also the upper limit might be terminal velocity: air resistance. Can get round that if you get slicked by an edge dancer though!

[Stormgate]

I think the Windrunner would win, since investiture is hard to use on something filled with investiture. The Mistborn would be confused at why it had trouble Soothing or Rioting emotions, why only duralumin-fueled Allomancy could move the sword, and why on Scadrial (or, you know, not) the guy was glowing. The Windrunner, on the other hand, would simply wonder why its Shardblade was being pulled around every so often, and why the Mistborn kept furiously swallowing metals. It might get thrown by speed-bubble near-teleportation, but it would easily react. 

The problem with atium is an important one. How do you defeat an opponent that can see what you are about to do? There are two possibilities that I see. One, they do what Vin did, and 

see what the atium-burner is anticipating them doing, and do something else

or they pull a page from the Reckoner's book (not Steelheart, I'm not talking literally), and checkmate the atium-burner. Don't know how they would do this, maybe stick them to a rock, and then hit them with their Shardblade? Either way, as was mentioned earlier, the KR were formed to be warriors, and the Mistborn were assassins. While they have similar potential death counts, the Windrunner would likely win.

[soulcastJam]

I don't believe either would win with standard fighting methods.  Infinite Atium is next to impossible to beat (especially since flared Atium lets you see further into the future as evidenced by the Duralumin enhanced Atium burn witness in canon).  But shardplate with infinite stormlight is also impossible to defeat as it's a full-body shield that can't be destroyed.  

 

A possible solution would be for the windrunner to lash a giant landmass to the sky and let it fall on the allomancer.  This would be quite difficult to avoid because you are limited by the strength of the allomancer in creating large speed-bubbles, running fast etc.  But with atium you could see what was happening and duralumin push yourself on top of the landmass before it gets over you...  So, no finishing blow after all. 

 

The only thing I see working is fighting until one person becomes so tired they fall asleep.  Of course, the shardplate could still stay intact during sleep, so the windrunner wouldn't die anyway.  The allomancer would be susceptible to death while asleep though, so I guess they would be the loser.

 

Things just get silly when you give anyone infinite anything.  

[Voidus]

I think the Windrunner would win, since investiture is hard to use on something filled with investiture. The Mistborn would be confused at why it had trouble Soothing or Rioting emotions, why only duralumin-fueled Allomancy could move the sword, and why on Scadrial (or, you know, not) the guy was glowing. The Windrunner, on the other hand, would simply wonder why its Shardblade was being pulled around every so often, and why the Mistborn kept furiously swallowing metals. It might get thrown by speed-bubble near-teleportation, but it would easily react. 

The problem with atium is an important one. How do you defeat an opponent that can see what you are about to do? There are two possibilities that I see. One, they do what Vin did, and 

see what the atium-burner is anticipating them doing, and do something else

or they pull a page from the Reckoner's book (not Steelheart, I'm not talking literally), and checkmate the atium-burner. Don't know how they would do this, maybe stick them to a rock, and then hit them with their Shardblade? Either way, as was mentioned earlier, the KR were formed to be warriors, and the Mistborn were assassins. While they have similar potential death counts, the Windrunner would likely win.

There's no feedback from soothing and rioting so they wouldn't notice anything was amiss, and Mistborn rarely use it in combat anyway, as for the sword I imagine they'd just assume it to either be spiked into the Radiant or made of Aluminium or just some other exception, it's not like they're totally unfamiliar with being unable to pull on metals.

Radiant is dealing with sudden loss of Shardblade, potentially extreme spikes in emotion and the Allomancer dodging every single move they make with absolute ease and they have to deal with the Mistborn throwing them around the place from a distance assuming they have any metal on them  (Which they almost certainly will)

The problem with a full Mistborn as opposed to a regular precog or Seer is that a Mistborn has a host of other abilities too so checkmating them is almost impossible. They have huge advantages in mobility and speed , they have heightened durability and can push or pull on any metal source.

If you're calculating, remember Rosharian gravity is less than Earth's.

Also the upper limit might be terminal velocity: air resistance. Can get round that if you get slicked by an edge dancer though!

Terminal velocity is in large part determined by the gravitational force, if there's a larger force pushing on you your terminal velocity will be higher.

[soulcastJam]

A new point.  If we assume infinite stormlight then we must be talking about either being in a highstorm or being on a giant crystal/sea of spheres etc.  Sucking in stormlight doesn't require more than proximity to the source which can be easily achieved by a windrunner skimming over the surface.

  Now, if we assume infinite metal, this requires repeated, almost continuous ingestion of metals.  At the very least, atium requires very frequent swallowing to maintain the battle.  This is time consuming, but more importantly, swallowing metal is difficult without some sort of liquid (water, alcohol).  So my point is this: A mistborn who is continuously ingesting atium would soon be too full to ingest anything else.  So beyond the initial time consuming activity of swallowing things constantly they have to add the time consuming activity of throwing up to make room for more.  

  I think the OPs intent was to ask what would happen if they had infinite stormlight/metal inside of them without having to replenish it from outside, but I wanted to add a little more reality to the question.

[Charononus]

A new point.  If we assume infinite stormlight then we must be talking about either being in a highstorm or being on a giant crystal/sea of spheres etc.  Sucking in stormlight doesn't require more than proximity to the source which can be easily achieved by a windrunner skimming over the surface.

  Now, if we assume infinite metal, this requires repeated, almost continuous ingestion of metals.  At the very least, atium requires very frequent swallowing to maintain the battle.  This is time consuming, but more importantly, swallowing metal is difficult without some sort of liquid (water, alcohol).  So my point is this: A mistborn who is continuously ingesting atium would soon be too full to ingest anything else.  So beyond the initial time consuming activity of swallowing things constantly they have to add the time consuming activity of throwing up to make room for more.  

  I think the OPs intent was to ask what would happen if they had infinite stormlight/metal inside of them without having to replenish it from outside, but I wanted to add a little more reality to the question.

Or a shard feeding them directly.

[Voidus]

A new point.  If we assume infinite stormlight then we must be talking about either being in a highstorm or being on a giant crystal/sea of spheres etc.  Sucking in stormlight doesn't require more than proximity to the source which can be easily achieved by a windrunner skimming over the surface.

  Now, if we assume infinite metal, this requires repeated, almost continuous ingestion of metals.  At the very least, atium requires very frequent swallowing to maintain the battle.  This is time consuming, but more importantly, swallowing metal is difficult without some sort of liquid (water, alcohol).  So my point is this: A mistborn who is continuously ingesting atium would soon be too full to ingest anything else.  So beyond the initial time consuming activity of swallowing things constantly they have to add the time consuming activity of throwing up to make room for more.  

  I think the OPs intent was to ask what would happen if they had infinite stormlight/metal inside of them without having to replenish it from outside, but I wanted to add a little more reality to the question.

Well they're burning the Atium so it wouldn't fill them up...

[Zathoth]

Other possibility. The battle takes place on Scadrial, it is not too ridiculous that a Radiant could draw investiture from another magical weather phenomena, is it? The Mistborn is of course capable of doing the same.

 

There, they both have infinite investiture.

[soulcastJam]

Other possibility. The battle takes place on Scadrial, it is not too ridiculous that a Radiant could draw investiture from another magical weather phenomena, is it? The Mistborn is of course capable of doing the same.

 

There, they both have infinite investiture.

I'm not sure why this is considered likely.  Of the many occasions of mistborn battles I recall only two (possibly three) occasions where a single individual accomplished this.  I thought it was a fluke actually based on some sort of godly preferential treatment.  

 

Well they're burning the Atium so it wouldn't fill them up...

I was suggesting the liquids they wash it down with would fill them up.

[Jondesu]

I think there's one big point that has never been satisfactorily answered.  Sure, a Mistborn with Atium is at the very least incredibly difficult to beat when you don't have Atium yourself (or at least Electrum), which obviously the Knight Radiant would not.  However, a Mistborn does not have the capability to deliver a mortal blow to a Radiant. Nothing a Mistborn is capable of doing, within any framework we've seen so far, seems like it would have the killing power, even if it connected, to do anything more than very temporarily inconvenience the Radiant.

 

Were they to attempt an assassination, and could catch the Radiant without Stormlight, perhaps the Mistborn would win.  In a direct fight, fully powered?  Not a chance.

 

jW

[soulcastJam]

Can't you just behead them?  That is, assuming they didn't have armor on...

[ZotarDragonSlayer]

Depends. Is the KR protecting anything???

 

But in all seriousness, I think it's safe to say that a Mistborn has a huge stealth advantage. Which makes sense because that's how they fight, from the shadows. In a full out brawl I believe the KR would win, but give each one time to plan and I think the Mistborn would give the Windrunner a good fight.

 

(Also, could a Knights Radiant survive decapitation? I know that other powers of Investiture i.e gold compounding can do it but would enough Stormlight give that kind of power boost?)

[Voidus]

I think there's one big point that has never been satisfactorily answered.  Sure, a Mistborn with Atium is at the very least incredibly difficult to beat when you don't have Atium yourself (or at least Electrum), which obviously the Knight Radiant would not.  However, a Mistborn does not have the capability to deliver a mortal blow to a Radiant. Nothing a Mistborn is capable of doing, within any framework we've seen so far, seems like it would have the killing power, even if it connected, to do anything more than very temporarily inconvenience the Radiant.

 

Were they to attempt an assassination, and could catch the Radiant without Stormlight, perhaps the Mistborn would win.  In a direct fight, fully powered?  Not a chance.

 

jW

Beheading, pewter enhanced punch to the face, steelpush them into the ground, hold them underwater til they drown. Then there's the speculative ones like Nicrosil-boost their lashing so they launch themselves into space, Chromium burn their Stormlight out of existence then kill them any old way.

Plenty of ways.

[Yata]

Beheading, pewter enhanced punch to the face, steelpush them into the ground, hold them underwater til they drown. Then there's the speculative ones like Nicrosil-boost their lashing so they launch themselves into space, Chromium burn their Stormlight out of existence then kill them any old way.

Plenty of ways.

I had actually with the point of "assassination=Mistborn win and Duel= Surgebinding win".

For example the Surgebinder within a Plate are quite immune to all ambiental condition (and also without the Plate they had no need of breathing).

The Enhanched Ultimate-Punch to the Face had to destroy the Plate and overcome all the Stormlight's Healing and the Nicrosil-Surge may be simply stopped by the Surgebinder at will. The Cromium to be honest is a Wild-Card and honestly I don't know if would simply suck all the Stomlight or be partialy-halted by the Plate.

Anyway as we said a lot of post ago. We had actually see what a complete RK would become at the end. Before of this, we can't make a rightfull judge.