Surgebinding vs Allomancy

[Unite Them]

Which magic system is more powerful in terms of combat.  

 

Specifically, all things being equal who would win in a fight: A mistborn or a windrunner?

 

If we had Zane or Vin fighting against Kaladin who would win?

 

This was inspired by the Lord Ruler vs Vasher question.

 

For the sake of argument let's assume that both contestants are absolute masters of their craft and have all of their necessary fuel available in limitless quantities.

 

The Windrunner has his/her shardblade and infinite stormlight.  The Mistborn has an endless supply of all available metals.  

 

While my heart wants to say the Windrunner would win I understand that things like atium would definitely give Kaladin a run for his money.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Unite Them

[Zathoth]

Surgebinding has free pewter in the Stormlight and by the looks of it stormlight heals you better than pewter. (Kaladins arm. Im not pewter could grow back your arm.) And they have these huge, awesome weapons.

 

A Mistborn however has more abilities, but Im not sure just flinging coins as bullets will be enough to hurt a surgebinder in any meaningful way.

 

There are other factors, the battlefield, a Surgebinder is a warrior, a Mistborn is an assasin, a Windrunner is better at flying than a Mistborn and could just make them fall into the sky and a Mistborn wont be able to do much about that unless they have something to pull against. I am leaning Windrunner at the moment...

[Unite Them]

Surgebinding has free pewter in the Stormlight and by the looks of it stormlight heals you better than pewter. (Kaladins arm. Im not pewter could grow back your arm.) And they have these huge, awesome weapons.

 

A Mistborn however has more abilities, but Im not sure just flinging coins as bullets will be enough to hurt a surgebinder in any meaningful way.

 

There are other factors, the battlefield, a Surgebinder is a warrior, a Mistborn is an assasin, a Windrunner is better at flying than a Mistborn and could just make them fall into the sky and a Mistborn wont be able to do much about that unless they have something to pull against. I am leaning Windrunner at the moment...

 

That's a good point a Mistborn would need an anchor and a Windrunner could simply lash the anchor into the sky as well.  Which would only accelerate the Mistborn's upward flight.

That still doesn't get around the Atium problem though.  How can you defeat an opponent who can see your next move?  Although I suppose if the "next move" involves getting yourself thrown skyward maybe it doesn't matter.

 

And then the shardblade... as I understand it an allomancer would not be able to directly manipulate the blade.

[Zathoth]

That's a good point a Mistborn would need an anchor and a Windrunner could simply lash the anchor into the sky as well.  Which would only accelerate the Mistborn's upward flight.

That still doesn't get around the Atium problem though.  How can you defeat an opponent who can see your next move?  Although I suppose if the "next move" involves getting yourself thrown skyward maybe it doesn't matter.

 

And then the shardblade... as I understand it an allomancer would not be able to directly manipulate the blade.

Well, if the Mistborn has atium there is no way the Windrunner is going to win.

 

I think I read a WoB on that you could push on a shardblade with duralumin, which is of course leaving you a bit open...

 

I think it depends on the time of the day as well. Mistborn can see in the dark, Surgebinders glow in the dark, Mistborn are pretty good at sneaking.

 

Really though, most Mistborn vs anything usually comes down to "Does the Mistborn have atium?"

[Unite Them]

Well, if the Mistborn has atium there is no way the Windrunner is going to win.

 

I think I read a WoB on that you could push on a shardblade with duralumin, which is of course leaving you a bit open...

 

I think it depends on the time of the day as well. Mistborn can see in the dark, Surgebinders glow in the dark, Mistborn are pretty good at sneaking.

 

Really though, most Mistborn vs anything usually comes down to "Does the Mistborn have atium?"

 

As I understand Atium it allows you to see your opponents next move and react to it quickly.  However if someone's next move is something you have no ability to defend against or react to wouldn't that mean the Atium is essentially nullified.

As you pointed out above.  The Windrunner could simply last the Mistborn to the sky and they would fly upwards.  They could try to use a coin to anchor but the Windrunner could lash that upwards as well. 

 

Is there any ability a Mistborn has that would save them from being lashed up a thousand feet and then being lashed down to their deaths with no anchors?

[Zathoth]

As I understand Atium it allows you to see your opponents next move and react to it quickly.  However if someone's next move is something you have no ability to defend against or react to wouldn't that mean the Atium is essentially nullified.

As you pointed out above.  The Windrunner could simply last the Mistborn to the sky and they would fly upwards.  They could try to use a coin to anchor but the Windrunner could lash that upwards as well. 

 

Is there any ability a Mistborn has that would save them from being lashed up a thousand feet and then being lashed down to their deaths with no anchors?

You have to touch something to lash it, you could avoid being touched with atium.

 

If there is metal near the Mistborn could use that as anchors until they stopped falling, then when they do fall they could push on things to slow the fall, not sure if it would be enough though.

[Voidus]

It should be mentioned that Chromium could likely be used to burn a Surgebinders Stormlight stores out of existence. Particularly if they're a 'master of their craft'

Now aside from the obvious use of Atium all metals would include Lerasium. And you said as much as they need. So not only could they use Lerasiums* unknown other abilities, they could just keep burning it to make them insanely strong as an Allomancer.
Then they could emulate TLRs example and just rip all the metal out of peoples bodies.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Voidus

[Zathoth]

It should be mentioned that Chromium could likely be used to burn a Surgebinders Stormlight stores out of existence. Particularly if they're a 'master of their craft'

Now aside from the obvious use of Atium all metals would include Lerasium. And you said as much as they need. So not only could they use Lerasiums* unknown other abilities, they could just keep burning it to make them insanely strong as an Allomancer.

Then they could emulate TLRs example and just rip all the metal out of peoples bodies.

This is another interesting thing about Mistborn, they have in theory about 48 abilities, while a surgebinder has about 4, if you count the stormlight and the extra effects they get from the nahel bonds.

 

We need to balance this if we want it to be interesting XD

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Given almost unlimited supplies of fuel then Surgebinders win. Yes, Atium is amazing. But Stormlight makes a Surgebinding nigh immortal. Plus Shardblade that can shape change instantaneously and instakills. 

 

There is WoB somewhere that states that Burning enough Lerasium would essentially cause an ascension? 

[Unite Them]

You don't have to necessarily touch something to lash it.  For instance Kaladin pulled all of those arrows without touching them.  Yes he touched the shield but he was still able to manipulate all those other things by lashing the shield.

[Zathoth]

Yes, thats the reverse lashing, for the basic lashing however you need to touch something.

[Edgedancer]

First off, the only Windrunner we know right now is still lacking some of his progress, so we don't actually know how strong a full Windrunner is right now. Most obvious detail being Shardplate. Another thing, do we count the magical enhhanced army of squires that the Windrunner comes with?

 

Apart from that, let's look at this piece by piece.

Close quarters: Between free Stormlight enhancements, healing and a morphing Shardblade the Windrunner wins hands down.

Long range: About a draw with lashings against pushing/pulling. Allomancers can retrive their ammunition but Windrunners have less restriction in what they use, don't have to worry about the other manipulating their trajectory and can take more liberty aiming. Pushing on a Shardblade would be next to usless, as they could instantly resummon it. However, a Shardbladeshield neutralizes most things an allomancer could throw at them, while Bendalloy bubbles give a large leway in dodging. Meaning that unless the basic lashing can actually create homing projectiles neither will get in a solid hit.

Mobility: Windrunner, as they do not need an anchor for their movement and don't seem to need to worry about whiplash from sudden shift of directions.

Combat sense: Yes, Mistborn have Atium, however our one Windrunner has also shown an impressive combat sense allowing him to fight with eyes closed, so I don't think Atium is that big an advantage in this match up.

 

Bottom line, in open combat the advantage seems to go to the Windrunner.

[Voidus]

Given almost unlimited supplies of fuel then Surgebinders win. Yes, Atium is amazing. But Stormlight makes a Surgebinding nigh immortal. Plus Shardblade that can shape change instantaneously and instakills. 

 

There is WoB somewhere that states that Burning enough Lerasium would essentially cause an ascension? 

Atium + Bendalloy is basically invincible. You know everything that's going to happen before it happens and have plenty of time to avoid it.

Also assuming the Surgebinder isn't prepared ahead of time they'd still have metal on them, so Duralumin + Iron and steel could wreak some serious havoc on them.

If the Mistborn is lashed upwards then that's really not a big deal, Mistborn are pretty used to flying. drop a coin as you're landing and you're fine. Or heck just Duralumin+Pewter to take the full impact without breaking.

So let's go through a Windrunners abilities:

Stormlight strength/speed/healing - largely countered by pewter, although they retain the advantage in healing, but Duralumin and pewter could easily remove a Surgebinders entire head which is one of the most reliable ways to kill them IIRC.

Basic lashing - Provides superior mobility but is largely countered by Iron and Steel, though it'd still provide an edge even over a Mistborn. Need to touch the Mistborn to use it which is basically going to be impossible, they're almost as mobile as a Windrunner is plus they can see the future. Using it on other objects to turn them into projectiles has the same problem, they'll be avoided pretty easily.

Full Lashing - not going to see much use since I think the battle would be primarily aerial.

Reverse Lashing - would get some use to block Steelpushed coins I suppose, though a Duralumin Steelpush probably provides too much speed for gravity to effect it much, other than that not much use.

Now the Mistborn

Tin: Vastly enhanced senses provide quite an edge, particularly in a night battle (Which is essentially the worst situation for a Surgebinder since they're surrounded by light their nightvision would be pretty non-existent)

Pewter: Cancelled by Stormlight.

Iron: Used for mobility, throwing the Windrunner off balance, retrieving thrown weapons to gain near-limitless projectiles.

Steel: Mobility, pushing the Windrunner away/pinning them potentially, launch projectiles (Though a reverse lashing will render these pretty useless)

Zinc & Brass: Windrunner has no defenses against emotional manipulation, could provide distractions or drive the Windrunner to recklessness but largely will go unused.

Copper: Pretty useless in this fight.

Bronze: Could be used to detect the Windrunner even when they can't be seen if the user is experienced enough.

Gold: Not going to be used.

Electrum: Not likely to be used if the Mistborn has Atium.

Cadmium: Could be used in conjunction with Iron and Steel to do some things (Trap the Windrunner in with you and your pushes/pulls will seem to affect things outside the bubble much faster (Maybe, we don't really know))

Bendalloy: Going to see quite a lot of use, will probably give the Mistborn the edge in mobility and make them nearly impossible to hit with any ranged attacks. Will also be a great source of confusion, causing their movement to seem very jumpy and unpredictable. Combined with Atium it would render pretty much anything other than close quarters fighting completely useless.

Atium: The obvious, Mistborn becomes nigh-impossible to hit and will be able to strike through your guard with ease.

Aluminium: Almost definitely not going to be used, though could potentially dispel a full lashing if the Mistborn is somehow caught.

Chromium: May very well be able to wipe the Windrunners stormlight out completely.

Nicrosil: Similar to Chromium, though potentially more risky. Though also potentially even more useful since if well timed it may cause a Windrunner to accidentally super-lash themselves in some direction and fly into space.

Duralumin: Basically just super-charge all the Mistborns abilities, Pewter now allows the Mistborn to move even faster than the Windrunner, punch harder, shatter skulls with a single strike, survive huge impacts, Iron and Steel will likely become impossible to effect with Lashings so fired coins will now become a significant problem to the Windrunner. Atium will basically make the Mistborn instantly win since they can see the Spiritual realm directly and know everything that is going to happen in the match. Time bubbles may cause Harmony only knows what to happen but potentially completely freeze time. Zinc and Brass become incredibly powerful weapons of psychological warfare, chromium might be able to wipe out Stormlight without even touching the Windrunner.

Basically Duralumin will act as a giant 'WIN' button.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

@Voidus. Do you know if an Allomancer Burning Atium can see a live Shardblade?

[Voidus]

@Voidus. Do you know if an Allomancer Burning Atium can see a live Shardblade?

I thought I remembered someone asking but I don't remember the answer and I can't find it anywhere.

Aluminium doesn't so it's a possibility that metals which are heavily invested enough don't either (Though with enough power they would be)

Regardless they'd still see the wielder so you'd have to employ the shapeshifting of the sprenblade pretty heavily to make us of it if it is invisible to Atium.

[Yata]

But an Surgebinder with infinite Stormlight isn't functionally Immortal ? And his Plate quite Indistructible ?

With This two facts I suppose that a Surgebinder can't lose with anyone (but of course in the reallity the Stormlight is a finite fuel).

 

Probably the Infinite Metals+ Durallumin may help but is a poison card to play. In the reallity a Mistborn with this setup will die by himself in minutes. Hyperflare so much metal, will turn you very fast in a Savant and probably make you apart in little time.

 

We need to change the conditions, because this term is far too unrealistic.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Yata

[Voidus]

But an Surgebinder with infinite Stormlight isn't functionally Immortal ? And his Plate quite Indistructible ?

With This two facts I suppose that a Surgebinder can't lose with anyone (but of course in the reallity the Stormlight is a finite fuel).

 

Probably the Infinite Metals+ Durallumin may help but is a poison card to play. In the reallity a Mistborn with this setup will die by himself in minutes. Hyperflare so much metal, will turn you very fast in a Savant and probably make you apart in little time.

 

We need to change the conditions, because this term is far too unrealistic.

No they're not immortal, they can heal from quite a lot but it's been specifically mentioned that crushing blows can kill them. We don't know how they get the Plate and it's not Indestructible, just very hard.

Savantism is different from Duralumin-burning metals, I don't know if we have any WoB on how the two interact, but regardless being a Savant isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's dangerous to become a savant and perhaps tin is but plenty of Seekers became Savants with no ill effects whatsoever.

[Yata]

Savantism is different from Duralumin-burning metals, I don't know if we have any WoB on how the two interact, but regardless being a Savant isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's dangerous to become a savant and perhaps tin is but plenty of Seekers became Savants with no ill effects whatsoever.

I speak about the damage that bein a Savant made at your Spirit Web. Probably using tons of metal for long time would at the end rip you.

I suppose that is the reason between the Harmony "unSavant" Spook when he give him the full set of powers.

[Voidus]

I speak about the damage that bein a Savant made at your Spirit Web. Probably using tons of metal for long time would at the end rip you.

I suppose that is the reason between the Harmony "unSavant" Spook when he give him the full set of powers.

As I said, Tin and arguably Pewter can be dangerous since it physically alters your body but the other metals wouldn't. And you wouldn't become a Savant inside of a single fight, it takes years of constant flaring.

[Guest]

Unlimited Stormlight = the ability to create a Stormlight Singularity (IE: Artificial Black Hole). Just compound an Infinite number of Reverse Lashings onto a pebble, and watch the Mistborn get sucked in.

 

 

Assuming by "Infinite" you mean "so much that normal combat usage would take weeks to run out":

 

My money's on the KR. With that level of Stormlight, death would be practically impossible. A Mistborn with Atium could run the KR through with a sword, think they've won, and then get punched so hard that real life cartoon birdies fly around their head. The only way the fight would even be competitive IMO would be a Mistborn + Feruchemical gold for Compounding.

[Voidus]

Unlimited Stormlight = the ability to create a Stormlight Singularity (IE: Artificial Black Hole). Just compound an Infinite number of Reverse Lashings onto a pebble, and watch the Mistborn get sucked in.

 

 

Assuming by "Infinite" you mean "so much that normal combat usage would take weeks to run out":

 

My money's on the KR. With that level of Stormlight, death would be practically impossible. A Mistborn with Atium could run the KR through with a sword, think they've won, and then get punched so hard that real life cartoon birdies fly around their head. The only way the fight would even be competitive IMO would be a Mistborn + Feruchemical gold for Compounding.

Along with yourself? In fact only yourself since you're closer and once you die it would stop.

Problem with Atium, there's no way for them to think they've won until they've actually won, they'd dodge the punch then retaliate with a Duralumin fueled punch of their own, crushing the Radiants skull and killing them.

A Soulcasting Radiant probably has a decent chance, especially Jasnah and her ability to Soulcast at a distance, but a Windrunner is just not cut out for fighting a Mistborn. Their largest advantage is their mobility and Mistborn have almost the same level of mobility plus a host of other abilities.

Pretty much the only edge the Radiant has is in healing and if you give a Mistborn Atium then it doesn't matter how difficult to kill you are, they will find the one way to kill you and execute it perfectly.

Mistborn with no Atium would be a much better fight, in that fight I'd probably give the edge to the Radiant, but it would be close and it really depends on how certain Mistborn powers interact with other forms of Investiture. If Chromium works on all Investiture then it might very well enable a Mistborn to kill a Sprenblade just by touching it and then consume all the Windrunners Stormlight.

[Yata]

Like said above. The unlimited fuel trasform this fight in a No-sense where the first how hit the other win (also if I am not sure that a guy with a lot of healing may be killed with regolar blow).

[Voidus]

Like said above. The unlimited fuel trasform this fight in a No-sense where the first how hit the other win (also if I am not sure that a guy with a lot of healing may be killed with regolar blow).

Hence why I vote for the guy who can see all attacks and blocks before they even start, precog is going to get the first hit in, first hit will probably decide the match, precog is going to win.

I said it before but Surgebinders can be killed with a crushing blow to the head. It's basically the same as zombies I imagine, need to destroy the brain.

[Yata]

Hence why I vote for the guy who can see all attacks and blocks before they even start, precog is going to get the first hit in, first hit will probably decide the match, precog is going to win.

I said it before but Surgebinders can be killed with a crushing blow to the head. It's basically the same as zombies I imagine, need to destroy the brain.

For how the Healing works I don't think. Unless the Stormlight Healing is a lot of different of the Feruchemical Healing.

Miles may survive without his head (with enough Healing) and I suppose that a Surgebinder may do the same with a lot of Stormlight

[Edgedancer]

Hence why I vote for the guy who can see all attacks and blocks before they even start, precog is going to get the first hit in, first hit will probably decide the match, precog is going to win.

I said it before but Surgebinders can be killed with a crushing blow to the head. It's basically the same as zombies I imagine, need to destroy the brain.

On the precog angle, Atium does have an flaw in that the atium shadow splits, if the opponent can react to the Atium guided actions fast enough. And Kaladin's combat sense gives him said super reflexes in spades, giving him a pretty solid counter to Atium.