Parshendi + Gemheart? (WoR-Spoiler)

[Pattern]

The Oathbringer Prologue gives an answer to the question whether Parshendi have a gemheart or not. I'll put it in spoiler tags, it hasn't been discussed right now, yet:

Spoiler

Quote

 

On 6.2.2017 at 8:41 PM, jofwu said:

“It’s what’s called a fabrial, a device powered by Stormlight that does something handy. This one makes warmth, just a smidge unfortunately, but my wife’s confident the scholars can create one that would heat an entire room. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? No more fires and hearths.”

It seemed lifeless to Eshonai, but she didn’t say so. She hummed to praise, so he wouldn’t keep telling her of this, and handed it back.

“Look closely,” King Gavilar said. “Look deep into it. Can you see what’s moving inside? That’s a spren. That’s how the device works.”

Captive, like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning awe. They built a device to mimic how they applied their forms. [They invested? so much of their limitations?].

 

In my opinion, this indicates that Parshendi do have gemhearts and they apply their forms by capturing spren in them. One can only speculate on the consequences to the War of Reckoning, if the Alethi had known about this.

@Shaukan-son-Hasweth Very good theorizing, one and a half year before readings from Oathbreaker, and on the point. Fabrials use Stormlight like greatshells and Parshendi - captured spren in a gemstone(heart).

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Pattern
capturing spren, not gemhearts ;)

[Stark]

On 10/31/2015 at 10:09 AM, Cemci said:

The gemhearts in greatshells are enormous by the way, and the Parshendi are only a little taller than humans. They probably don't have all the anatomy of humans, but it's fair to assume that they don't have gemhearts the size of human heads inside them. If Parshendi develop gemhearts, they're nowhere near as big as the greatshells'. Also, Knights Radiant in general do have human anatomy, so I would say no to KR developing gemhearts, at least not without developing some serious medical issues (the human body doesn't exactly have a great amount of space left inside it to develop a gemheart).

Late to a discussion that may be re-igniting soon, if Oathbringer brings new information.  I think the above argument is flawed.  Humans, mice, whales and elephants all have hearts, and they are all different sizes, based on what the organism evolved to suit its needs.  If the Parshendi have gemhearts, they likely would be about the size of a normal heart, as that is all they would need.  We cannot dismiss the possibility based on size, though the function may vary (tri-chamber frog heart as compared to a qaud-chamber mammalian heart, compared to a dual-chamber fish heart)

 

What is also interesting is the idea that the Radiants are developing their own gemhearts.  I don't think that will cause obvious physiological issues, partially because magic.  But more Cosmere relevantly, because it sounds really like Savantism.  We have seen Savantism have physiological changes and drawbacks before (Spook in HoA, the soulcasters in WoR) It would make sense that the Radiants would develop some form of Savantism with extended surge use, or higher level Oaths.  This could tie into answers as to what happened to the Radiants after the Recreance.  If the Radiant form of Savantism causes gemheart development, when the oath is broken, and the Spren are gone, there is nothing left to sustain them.  They could then all die very quickly without it.  

 

We saw Kaladin be negatively impacted by the loss of Syl after two Oath's.  Imagine, a full Radiant, with all five Oaths, and a fully developed gemheart, losing their bond.  

 

If Radiants and Listeners develop/have gemhearts to help contain their spren for the bond.  It feels like an organic tie-in to Savantism to me.

[Fulminato]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

Late to a discussion that may be re-igniting soon, if Oathbringer brings new information.  I think the above argument is flawed.  Humans, mice, whales and elephants all have hearts, and they are all different sizes, based on what the organism evolved to suit its needs.  If the Parshendi have gemhearts, they likely would be about the size of a normal heart, as that is all they would need.  We cannot dismiss the possibility based on size, though the function may vary (tri-chamber frog heart as compared to a qaud-chamber mammalian heart, compared to a dual-chamber fish heart)

 

What is also interesting is the idea that the Radiants are developing their own gemhearts.  I don't think that will cause obvious physiological issues, partially because magic.  But more Cosmere relevantly, because it sounds really like Savantism.  We have seen Savantism have physiological changes and drawbacks before (Spook in HoA, the soulcasters in WoR) It would make sense that the Radiants would develop some form of Savantism with extended surge use, or higher level Oaths.  This could tie into answers as to what happened to the Radiants after the Recreance.  If the Radiant form of Savantism causes gemheart development, when the oath is broken, and the Spren are gone, there is nothing left to sustain them.  They could then all die very quickly without it.  

 

We saw Kaladin be negatively impacted by the loss of Syl after two Oath's.  Imagine, a full Radiant, with all five Oaths, and a fully developed gemheart, losing their bond.  

 

If Radiants and Listeners develop/have gemhearts to help contain their spren for the bond.  It feels like an organic tie-in to Savantism to me.

a gemheart hold a spren, Sly and patter aren't hold, the ancient radiant don't have they spren locked in a gem too, first the blade all radiant held (exception peraps for the bondismith) are that spren, and in the dalinar's purelake vision the KR (woring a full plate, so well beyond the third ideal) are talking to the air (her invisible spren i suppose)

 

PS: my english are atrocius, i know. pls be gentle

Edited February 23, 2017 by Fulminato

[Stark]

@Fulminato I agree, the Nahel-bond spren we have seen so far are not trapped in a gem.  This is an excellent point.  My only counter is that the Radiants have the Nahel bond, which applies a different rule set.  It could be possible that the Nahel bond promotes the growth of a gemheart for the spren to inhabit, but not be captured.  It's all speculation at this point, we don't yet have enough information to confirm anything.

 

My other counter is that we see gems capture spren, but we do not know what they do in a living being.  We do see spren leaving the Chasmfiends as they die.  Maybe a living gemheart works differently than a dead one.  A home, like a hermit-crab's shell for the spren that allow the organisms to defy physics, where as the dead ones become traps?

[Jofwu]

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

The Oathbringer Prologue gives an answer to the question whether Parshendi have a gemheart or not. I'll put it in spoiler tags, it hasn't been discussed right now, yet:

  Hide contents

In my opinion, this indicates that Parshendi do have gemhearts and they apply their forms by capturing gemhearts in them. One can only speculate on the consequences to the War of Reckoning, if the Alethi had known about this.

@Shaukan-son-Hasweth Very good theorizing, one and a half year before readings from Oathbreaker, and on the point. Fabrials use Stormlight like greatshells and Parshendi - captured spren in a gemstone(heart).

 

 

 

This wasn't my interpretation of the Prologue. When listeners change form, they capture a spren in a gem and go out in the storm with it. I think this is the similarity that Eshonai was referring to here.

[Bcknight2]

35 minutes ago, jofwu said:

This wasn't my interpretation of the Prologue. When listeners change form, they capture a spren in a gem and go out in the storm with it. I think this is the similarity that Eshonai was referring to here.

This Quote from WoR backs @Pattern's interpretation of the prologue...

Quote

 

She hated trapping them. The right way was to go into the highstorm with the proper attitude, singing the proper song to attract the proper spren. You bonded it in the fury of the raging storm and were reborn with a new body. People had been doing this from the arrival of the first winds.

The listeners had learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans, then had figured out the process on their own. A captive spren made the transformation much more reliable. Before, there had always been an element of chance. You could go into the storm wanting to become a soldier, and come out a mate instead.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 198). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Also, @Stark this WoB  Says no surgebinders with gemhearts:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

KURKISTAN

Do Surgebinders have Gemhearts?

BLIGHTSONG

*laughs* I was about to ask that.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, good question.

TAGS

surgebinders, gemhearts

 

[Pattern]

19 hours ago, Bcknight2 said:

The listeners had learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans, then had figured out the process on their own. A captive spren made the transformation much more reliable. Before, there had always been an element of chance. You could go into the storm wanting to become a soldier, and come out a mate instead.

Again, I put my arguments spoiler tags for Oathbringer prologue, since I refer to it.

Spoiler

The Parshendi first contact to humans in a very long time (perhaps since the last Desolation) was Eshonais scouting party stumbling over the Alethi expedition. So Eshonai's encounter with Gavilar in the prologue might be the inspiration to use gemstones to prepare the right spren for a transformation. Before that day, capturing spren in gemstones could not have been common knowlege to the Parshendi, enforced by the fact that fabrials are quite a recent (human) invention with ongoing research. Navani somewhere talks of "modern fabrial" opposed to shardblades and shardplate, which we know aren't fabrials at all. So it would be unlikely for the Parshendi to have got that information a century ago or so.

Eshonai's thought in the prologue is "Captive like in a gemheart" as opposed to gemstone. So I conclude that the Parshendi way of changing their forms is by trapping - or inviting a spren to live in - their own gemheart, which obviously would be smaller than the gemheart of a greatshell and would not be responsible for pumping the blood/ichor. Iirc a gemheart is an entirely independent organ from the ordinary heart, which might be there or not (spiders and insects also only have "hearts" that have only little in common with hearts of vertebrae).

I cannot see how the information from the prologue could fit with the hypothesis that Parshendi don't have a gemheart, so they must have one.

An argument came to my mind, to give a loophole: Parshendi might call their uncut gemstones "gemhearts", since that's what the uncut stones are: Gemhearts of cremlings and other smaller animals. But, also in the Oathbringer prologue:

Spoiler

Quote

The lower levels of the palace had an open feel to them, broad hallways and boundaries lit by spheres containing carefully cut gemstones. The main lights sparkled, as opposed to the uncut stones her people tended to wear. Sparkling chandeliers hung above her, broken suns spraying light all around.

Here Eshonai calls the stones uncut and not "gemhearts", so there is a difference.

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Pattern

[Jofwu]

Huh, great points all around.

Seems odd to me that they're aware they have a gemheart. Parshendi don't seem like the sort of people to dissect their dead, and how else would they know?

[Brgst13]

Parshendi harvest gemhearts from the greatshells in the Shattered Plains.  This suggests that the reference to gemhearts may not refer to their own gemhearts.  

The reference to their forms is likely due to the fact that the spren are taken into the Highstorm trapped in gems, where they are then used to transform.

[Bcknight2]

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

Parshendi harvest gemhearts from the greatshells in the Shattered Plains.  This suggests that the reference to gemhearts may not refer to their own gemhearts.  

  Reveal hidden contents

The reference to their forms is likely due to the fact that the spren are taken into the Highstorm trapped in gems, where they are then used to transform.

 

From the passage from WoR, that I quoted in my previous post, it is clear that the Parshendi DID NOT bring spren trapped in gemstones into the storm until after they learned that spren could be manually trapped in gemstones from the Alethi. Prior to this they just went into the storm and hoped to attract the correct spren.

Spoiler

From the interaction between Gavilar and Eshonai in the prologue, it is clear that Eshonai is surprised by the Alethi's ability to capture a spren in a gemstone. This makes it obvious that the parshendi have not yet learned that spren could be captured in this manner from the Alethi.

Thus, the parshendi obviously have not yet begun the practice, of bringing spren into the storm trapped in gemstones, and that could not have possibly been what Eshonai was thinking about.

 

[Pattern]

4 hours ago, jofwu said:

Huh, great points all around.

Seems odd to me that they're aware they have a gemheart. Parshendi don't seem like the sort of people to dissect their dead, and how else would they know?

Well, that we can only can speculate about, since we don't know what it feels like to have a gemheart. Parshendi should be able to know about their gemhearts without dissecting corpses, what they most definitely don't do, anyway: Parshendi are after all able to see spren leaking from the cognitive realm to the physical realm, so when they trap/invite a spren to their gemheart, they should be able to see/feel where the spren goes to. As long as they are not in slave-form (Parshmen), capturing a spren should be something instinctive to do. After all that's what they are doing since prehistory on Roshar (See the Song of Listeners:)

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We cant't provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.

From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza

From "betrayed" I conclude that there was a (natural) symbiosis of spren and Parshendi, even before humanity came to Roshar. The closeness of their minds to the cognitive realm giving them their froms plus the information from the Oathbringer prologue makes me think, that Parshendi are aware of where their spren stays after capturing it. "Though broth are we, their meat is men." implies (for me) that the symbiosis of spren and Parshendi is something basic, perhaps just the Parshendi giving the spren a place to stay on the physical realm like it's done in fabrials (though that's more like enslavement of spren), getting their form in return, while we know that the Nahel bond provides sapience for spren (in the physical realm) and access to surges for the human.
There is more, if one considers the forms of power, which were shunned by the free Parshendi, and the possibility to bend the surges of men to the surges of Parshendi, but that would go too far here.

An explanation for the Parshendi not to touch their dead could be: In early history, Parshendi looted and disected killed enemies (tribal wars, etc.) to get to their gemhearts (compare to historical cannibalism in Polynesia, where enemies were eaten to get the strenght from the killed enemy). This practice being "a bit" messy could have led to a taboo in touching the dead at all, to prevent such atrocities.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Pattern

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

On 23.2.2017 at 3:34 PM, Pattern said:

The Oathbringer Prologue gives an answer to the question whether Parshendi have a gemheart or not. I'll put it in spoiler tags, it hasn't been discussed right now, yet:

  Hide contents

In my opinion, this indicates that Parshendi do have gemhearts and they apply their forms by capturing gemhearts in them. One can only speculate on the consequences to the War of Reckoning, if the Alethi had known about this.

@Shaukan-son-Hasweth Very good theorizing, one and a half year before readings from Oathbreaker, and on the point. Fabrials use Stormlight like greatshells and Parshendi - captured spren in a gemstone(heart).

 

 

 

Thank you!

I havent spent any time on here for almost a year, and almost forgot about this post.
The moment i read this line in Oathbringer i was so hyped.