The Way of Kings Reread Questions

[WeiryWriter]

Sorry for the absence, Christmas was a whirlwind. Continuing!

 

45. Is Uruthiru the mythic Tranquiline Halls?

46. Are the Cryptic Spren that Shallan sees the Dawnsingers?

47. Who is Teft, your theories?

48. When Hoid says he started out as words on a page and then stole himself, is he making a meta joke?

 

45. Probably not, existed on Roshar.  And the Tranquiline Halls are somewhere else.

 

46. We don't know very much about cryptics or even if Dawnsingers are actually spren or not.  (My personal theory is that the Dawnsingers were the Radiant bonding spren and also splinters of Honor/Cultivation, so yes cryptics would be Dawnsingers according to my theory)

 

47.  Teft was raised as an Envisager. Other than that only Teft knows...

 

48.  It's possible, people have discussed it before.  I'm not so sure

[KevThinker]

First two observations:

 

More of a statement than a question. The more I read about Dalinar's visions, the more I am convinced that Dalinar is actually being transported into the past to influence events. It just seems to make more and more sense as he interacts with people.

 

&

 

Dalinar's vision in which he sees Noadon (sorry about spelling, I blame the audiobook) it seems to provide some insight into why humanity is in such sorry shape following Desolations. Heralds only come at the beginning of Desolations leaving the interim time to be governed by Kings/Soul Casters/Lords/Surgebinders. It seems like these groups abused their power and directed their energies towards eachother instead of uniting and preparing to fight the Voidbringers. This doesn't answer why the Radiants gave up their power, or why magical abilities such as Surgebinding vanished but it does seem to point to a possible reason for why the Heralds were so distressed everytime they were called back to Roshar to fight. Imagine being the only member of your team willing to pull your own weight, I'd get exhausted too. 

 

49. Are Humans native to Roshar? They do not seem to fit into the ecological/evolutionary niche that Roshar cultivates. If anything the Parshendi seem to be more in line with what a humanoid native would look like.

 

50. Is the barrier between the cognitive and physical realm somehow weaker on Roshar? I keep thinking about how Spren are only seen on Roshar and not other Shardworlds. Is this due to the presence of a particular shardholder or has the world been affected in some way?

[WeiryWriter]

First two observations:

 

More of a statement than a question. The more I read about Dalinar's visions, the more I am convinced that Dalinar is actually being transported into the past to influence events. It just seems to make more and more sense as he interacts with people.

 

&

 

Dalinar's vision in which he sees Noadon (sorry about spelling, I blame the audiobook) it seems to provide some insight into why humanity is in such sorry shape following Desolations. Heralds only come at the beginning of Desolations leaving the interim time to be governed by Kings/Soul Casters/Lords/Surgebinders. It seems like these groups abused their power and directed their energies towards eachother instead of uniting and preparing to fight the Voidbringers. This doesn't answer why the Radiants gave up their power, or why magical abilities such as Surgebinding vanished but it does seem to point to a possible reason for why the Heralds were so distressed everytime they were called back to Roshar to fight. Imagine being the only member of your team willing to pull your own weight, I'd get exhausted too. 

 

49. Are Humans native to Roshar? They do not seem to fit into the ecological/evolutionary niche that Roshar cultivates. If anything the Parshendi seem to be more in line with what a humanoid native would look like.

 

50. Is the barrier between the cognitive and physical realm somehow weaker on Roshar? I keep thinking about how Spren are only seen on Roshar and not other Shardworlds. Is this due to the presence of a particular shardholder or has the world been affected in some way?

 

I'm definitely in the "Dalinar is NOT actually going to the past" camp.  It is strongly implied that he is not the first to have received the visions and I just don't know how it would work if they all actually went back to the same point in time?

 

49.  Probably not.  Humans first originated on Yolen, but they have been created on other Shardworlds as well (i.e. Scadrial).  The origins of Rosharan humans are not known or what species were extant on Roshar prior to the arrival of Honor and Cultivation.

 

50.  I don't think that is a matter of the barrier being "weaker".  I think spren are just a result of the natural realmatics of Roshar, like how metal-based magics are on Scadrial or form/programming-based on Sel.  I'd also say no to it being a particular Shard since there are Adonalsium-invested spren and so that pre-date the Shattering.  Spren are just a part of Roshar.

[KevThinker]

@WeiryWriter.

 

You make an excellent point about Dalinar not being the very first person to see these visions. Do we have any concrete WOB that others have experienced the exact same events? 

 

I say it seems he his actually in the past because it just seems to odd that Dalinar would suggest to Noadon that he write a book. It smacks too much of planting an idea and a direct influence upon the past.

Edited December 30, 2013 by KevThinker

[dyring]

Dont think we have WOB on it. Its mostly the things in WoK. The "false" visions of the hierocracy. It tried to take power. That sounds alot like unite them doesent it? . The victor writes history and it seems likely that those who confessed that the visions where false were either tortured into saying so, or some who claimed to see it to fit in with those who did. Or, simply a story made up by the dude(forgot the name) who brought em down to make himself look better.

[Aether]

@WeiryWriter.

 

You make an excellent point about Dalinar not being the very first person to see these visions. Do we have any concrete WOB that others have experienced the exact same events? 

 

I say it seems he his actually in the past because it just seems to odd that Dalinar would suggest to Noadon that he write a book. It smacks too much of planting an idea and a direct influence upon the past.

We do not know if they get the exact same visions, but there are others who have gotten them. Some people also suggest that the Hierocracy might actually have been inspired by the vision, but I myself believe them to be a later appearance, along with Death Chants and the reappearance of Surgebinding, etc..

 

And while it does seem to good not to be true, I do not think Dalinar was the one who inspired Nohadon. Dalinar has recently read (well, listened to) the Way of Kings a lot, and it is only natural that he would mention it when he started suspecting he was speaking to Nohadon.

 

EDIT: @dyring: You are thinking about the Sunmaker.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Aether

[Isomere]

This quote is pretty good evidence the visions are not affecting the past:

I know it's a bit late, but I ran into him here and managed to get a few Cosmere questions in:

 

Q: In Dalinar's visions, he interacted with people in ways that seemed strange and unexpected to those he was interacting with, and they responded appropriately.  Did his actions actually influence the past, or not? For example, did he help influence Nohadon to write The Way of Kings?  (Note: This is a very interesting question to ask because both answers reveal something very interesting.  A yes says that time travel in some form is possible under Cosmere magic; a no says that the dying Tanavast had enough power and awareness available to him to create some extremely detailed and highly interactive simulations, which is far more capability than Leras had while dying!)

 

A: No, they were just projections sent into his mind.

[KevThinker]

So the visions of the hierocracy were the same ones that Dalinar has been experiencing?

[WeiryWriter]

So the visions of the hierocracy were the same ones that Dalinar has been experiencing?

 

This has not been confirmed, it is theory only.

[Edgedancer]

So the visions of the hierocracy were the same ones that Dalinar has been experiencing?

If I remember right the Hierocracy claimed to see visions on the future, which Honor was not especally good at, while Dalinar is seeing the past, with from what I know only one exception that was somewhat ominous. So Imo it is rather unlikely that Honor woud send enough future visions to actually create an organisation around it, maybe a couple of very bad/ important events to come, but as I said that woudn´t be enough to base the Hierocracy on.

 

Cultivation may be able to create a number of correct visions high enough to lead the Hierocracy and I suppose that "taking total control of humanity so that it ends up where I want it" coud be a more sinister interpretation of Cultivation.

The falshood of the Visions of the H as modern Vorinism claims coud be caused by intervierence of another Shard so that the Visions stoped or where corrupted when it was already to late to stop this organisation.

 

And now I have created another theory based mostly on speculation, enjoy.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Edgedancer

[Isomere]

Was the church trying to serve Honor when it attempted the Heirocracy? We only have the records of modern Vorinism which we believe to be corrupt so it is hard to know. I personally think the visions they had were real and encouraged them to unite the world in preparation for the everstorm. They failed. If you look at this from the victors perspective it could easily be seen as power mongering, especially if they were influenced by Odium. By all accounts, Sunmaker was a warlord that conquered much of the world, it's reasonable to speculate he wasn't exactly Honorable.

Some comments on older questions:

26: I fear modern Vorinism is largely influenced by Odium. The aversion to predicting the future seems a way to subjugate the people and prevent them from learning about the Almighty. For example, it would discredit anyone like Dalinar that sees visions from Honor.

34: I have seen no good evidence that shardblades permanently change eye color. Taln at the end of WOK has dark eyes, so wielding an Honorblade is confirmed to not make you a Lighteyes. I suspect the legends are due to shardblades originally being used only by Radiants holding vast reserves of stormlight. The eyes of all the Radiants glow with the color of their respective polestone, and they don't leak light through the skin like Szeth and Kaladin. This makes me suspect they can store the light until they want to use it, but their eyes change color as a result.

35: Honorblades are the swords used by the Heralds. They are more powerful than shardblades. Dawnshards may not be swords at all, but we are still waiting to find out.

37: You develop a Nahel bond by living in such a way that you attract a spren of the Almighty. They are drawn to people that consistently nurture the associated character traits listed in the Ars Arcanum. If you want to be a Windrunner, protect and lead those around you. If you want to be an Edgedancer, love and heal all you meet, etc. There is likely more to it since this doesn't account for the long absence and recent resurgence of surgebinding. Did Gavilar/Szeth free the spren? Are the fallen Heralds suppressing Nahel bonds? Did Szeth trigger something when he became Truthless? So many questions, so few answers.

48: I think Hoid outlined and planned who he wanted to become, then stole the name of his former master and became the man he had designed. The meta-reference is a fun double meaning.

[Moogle]

This quote is pretty good evidence the visions are not affecting the past:

 

 

I know it's a bit late, but I ran into him here and managed to get a few Cosmere questions in:

 

Q: In Dalinar's visions, he interacted with people in ways that seemed strange and unexpected to those he was interacting with, and they responded appropriately.  Did his actions actually influence the past, or not? For example, did he help influence Nohadon to write The Way of Kings?  (Note: This is a very interesting question to ask because both answers reveal something very interesting.  A yes says that time travel in some form is possible under Cosmere magic; a no says that the dying Tanavast had enough power and awareness available to him to create some extremely detailed and highly interactive simulations, which is far more capability than Leras had while dying!)

 

A: No, they were just projections sent into his mind.

 

Well, that's just disturbing. Not to say that backwards time travel wouldn't be, but the fact that the simulation could interact with Dalinar shows that the Almighty was able to 'copy' people, essentially. The implications that every time Dalinar sees a vision results in people being created, who are then promptly killed when the vision ends, are disturbing. Selfish, too. Honor never made it so he was capable of interacting with Dalinar and answering questions like he did for poor Nohadon, so Honor wouldn't have to suffer being constantly killed.

 

Anyways, this is all a leadup to my next great theory: Honor is responsible for every single problem on Roshar and was a horrible mass murderer. Odium is clearly a vigilante who was trying to save the Cosmere from him, except he is limited by his Intent, so the current state of Roshar was the best he could do.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Moogle

[KevThinker]

I suspect the legends are due to shardblades originally being used only by Radiants holding vast reserves of stormlight. The eyes of all the Radiants glow with the color of their respective polestone, and they don't leak light through the skin like Szeth and Kaladin. This makes me suspect they can store the light until they want to use it, but their eyes change color as a result.

Whats a "polestone?"

[WeiryWriter]

Whats a "polestone?"

The ten polestones are the then gemstones that are used in surgebinding. Sapphire, Smokestone, Ruby, Diamond, Emerald, Garnet, Zircon, Amethyst, Topaz, Heliodor.

Edit: Woo! got those right the first time!

Edited December 31, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Oudeis]

Is polestone a word in real life, or is it the word on roshar for those ten gems?

[WeiryWriter]

Is polestone a word in real life, or is it the word on roshar for those ten gems?

I believe it is just a Roshar word, I'm not familiar with an Earth-usage.

[Gamma Fiend]

So is this the thread we compile basically all our knowledge and theory discussion into one, for those too lazy to browse all the individual threads? XD

[Oudeis]

No, this is the thread where one person, reading the book, posts all of his or her own questions, and then everyone chimes in.

[KevThinker]

51. Is an Alethi woman's Safe Hand physically different than her Free Hand? Also does everyone have the same orientation of safe hand, meaning right hands are always safe or left or are they interchangeable?

[KevThinker]

52. Would it be possible for a Surgebinder to create lashings if he had no use of his limbs? Could he create lashings by touching objects with his feet or other parts his body?

[WeiryWriter]

51. Is an Alethi woman's Safe Hand physically different than her Free Hand? Also does everyone have the same orientation of safe hand, meaning right hands are always safe or left or are they interchangeable?

52. Would it be possible for a Surgebinder to create lashings if he had no use of his limbs? Could he create lashings by touching objects with his feet or other parts his body?

51.  There is no morphological difference, safehands are always the left hand.

 

52. Probably, the stipulation is that the object to be lashed has to be touched, no mention of how it is to be touched.

Edited December 31, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[name_here]

I kind of doubt actual time travel was involved with the visions. For one thing, it's unprecedented in the Cosmere. Also, if Honor can send someone else back in time to change history, I'd think he could go back himself. Plus, if Dalinar's suggestion actually prompted the writing of The Way Of Kings, we have a serious causality problem. Dalinar suggested writing a book because he had heard it read. That's a four thousand year long closed time loop, and I doubt anyone recognizable as Dalinar would have initiated it. I think it's much more likely that the visions are just a sophisticated simulation.

 

Also, the last vision is a repeat of the first one Dalinar saw, although it's also not in the past.

[KevThinker]

53. is Kalladin married? There are subtle references to someone named Tera probably a woman who pulled him out of his funk following Tien's death.

Edited December 31, 2013 by KevThinker

[WeiryWriter]

53. is Kalladin married? There are subtle references to someone probably a woman who pulled him out of his funk following Tien's death.

53. We don't really know much about Tarah at this point, people have theorized that she was some sort of love interest, but we don't know much.

[KevThinker]

54. What are the order of events in the Way of Kings since ancient days? So far I think it goes.

 

1. The Heralds leave the Radiants and primitive humans abandoning the oathpact.

2. Nohadon's kingdom is desolated in a horrible battle. (This must have happened before Honor was killed as he stated that his journal was composed of events he witnessed.)

3. The Knights Radiant give up their Plate and Blade. 

4. Odium defeats Honor splintering his Shard

5. The Alethi Kingdoms and other Roshar Kingdoms acquire the Plate and Blade.

6. The taming of the Parshmen.

7. Odium chooses to allow his war to pass into myth and for the world to forget about him in preparation for the Last Desolation.

 

The only event that I can't place is when Honor created his vision journal. It was obviously before Odium killed him, but the Knights seem to have fractured after his death. 3 & 4 give me a bit of pause because Honor stated that his visions were made up of events he witnessed. If he was already dead then how did he know the Radiants gave up their plate in the Firestone Keep vision?

 

I've heard some people state that they think that vision contains the day that Odium finally defeated Honor, but I'm not so certain. 

 

55. I wonder if the cities created by the Dawnsingers fit together to form some kind of larger pattern? I also wonder if they are connected by mystical means.

 

56. Did Talanel's blade behave differently because it is an Honorblade?

Edited January 3, 2014 by KevThinker