Dalinar's Flashback Chapter from Oathbringer

[Battar]

Just because he has lived "more hours" does not mean his psychological and physical development follow the same curve.

 

Adolin essentially behaves like an early twenties young man, not an older one. His entire relationship with his father, his behavior, his thoughts are those of a young person.

 

The year length issue is annoying because it makes people take those characters for older than their actual behavior and physical description call for. There is no indication Rohsarian bodies age at the same pace as Earth ones nor is there any indication having lived enough hours qualify you to be 25 years old in our world implies you would be that age should you be magically transported here. 

 

I am quite sure Brandon did not intend his readers to read his books with a calculator when it comes to age, so if he say someone is 20 or 23, then they are 20 or 23, independently of how their fictional planet rotates on its orbit.

 

I think you are thinking of Rosharan physiology too much like that of Earth. Different cultures and physics (like having .7x the gravity on earth) have profound effects on physiology. Lower gravity means much of the body will be underdeveloped early on compared to Earth, and it would take more physical activity to have the same muscle mass as an Earth human. Societal differences might also evolve humans on Roshar to develop mentally later or earlier than on Earth. I also think Adolin behaves like a petulant child sometimes, but at others his acts much more mature and honorably (see the scene with the whore in Sadeas's camp). Kaladin certainly acts older than his age would have you believe most of the books, as does Shallan. But too many things go into mental and physical maturity that just knowing a few things about the calendar won't solve the mystery.

[AerionBFII]

Kaladin always feels much older than Adolin despite the later being a few years older whenever i read SA, i love how Brandon has factored that in. I'd go into more detail but @Battar has already nailed it    +1.

 

Loved it. The whole reason BS factored in Shardplades not physically cutting humans is because when he was writing the prologue to WOK it was majorly bloody and gory but it was nice to see Dalinar as "Intense" and as blood thirsty as everybody claimed. I never thought BS would crank it up this much and i like it. 

[Cemci]

Can we agree that the calendar discussion is useless? The variables of how and at what pace people age, what the physics of Roshar do to physiology and the differences in culture make it almost impossible, in my opinion, to definitely state that 'Adolin should be closer to 25.5/27/31 years old'. He's 23. Sanderson made him 23 for a reason, and I honestly doubt that it was in order to start a debate on why Adolin is so immature if by Earth years he would be 27. 

[Battar]

Can we agree that the calendar discussion is useless? The variables of how and at what pace people age, what the physics of Roshar do to physiology and the differences in culture make it almost impossible, in my opinion, to definitely state that 'Adolin should be closer to 25.5/27/31 years old'. He's 23. Sanderson made him 23 for a reason, and I honestly doubt that it was in order to start a debate on why Adolin is so immature if by Earth years he would be 27. 

 

Very much agree. I think the calendar and orbital patterns are much more impactful in the realm of astronomy or moon patterns, which are much more interesting.

 

Edit: I need more info on astronomy in the Roshar system. I've read the Moons on Roshar thread, but most of that info is from early 2014 and I want to know the details of the system canonically.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Battar

[hoser]

Can we agree that the calendar discussion is useless? The variables of how and at what pace people age, what the physics of Roshar do to physiology and the differences in culture make it almost impossible, in my opinion, to definitely state that 'Adolin should be closer to 25.5/27/31 years old'. He's 23. Sanderson made him 23 for a reason, and I honestly doubt that it was in order to start a debate on why Adolin is so immature if by Earth years he would be 27. 

Can we just agree to disagree?  Brandon's worldbuilding is deep, well researched and consistent.  Sure, you don't care.  All the characters are older in earth years and, for those who care, it can be relevant.  In the words of the great peacemaker Rodney King, "Can we all get along?."

[maxal]

I think you are thinking of Rosharan physiology too much like that of Earth. Different cultures and physics (like having .7x the gravity on earth) have profound effects on physiology. Lower gravity means much of the body will be underdeveloped early on compared to Earth, and it would take more physical activity to have the same muscle mass as an Earth human. Societal differences might also evolve humans on Roshar to develop mentally later or earlier than on Earth. I also think Adolin behaves like a petulant child sometimes, but at others his acts much more mature and honorably (see the scene with the whore in Sadeas's camp). Kaladin certainly acts older than his age would have you believe most of the books, as does Shallan. But too many things go into mental and physical maturity that just knowing a few things about the calendar won't solve the mystery.

 

Kaladin and Adolin are young adults who essentially behave like... young adults which imply they can both be very mature on certain aspects but terribly immature on others. Both have been shown to be immature, just not for the same reasons. This is where the line is typically drawn between young adults and adults: being mature on all fronts as opposed to have some work left to do in that regards. Adults also face much different challenges and certainly don't react, on average, as those two do.

 

Shallan essentially behaves like a teenager: she never thinks of consequences which is a sign of youth.

 

 

Can we just agree to disagree?  Brandon's worldbuilding is deep, well researched and consistent.  Sure, you don't care.  All the characters are older in earth years and, for those who care, it can be relevant.  In the words of the great peacemaker Rodney King, "Can we all get along?."

 

If it were extensively relevant, then the book would come with a disclaimer stating each reader has to multiply the "reported" age of each character by 1.1 in order to have a valid representation of each. Or even better, it would include a conversion table at the beginning to explain to each reader how Adolin is 26 years old and not 23 as stated in book. It should probably also include a lengthy description as to why Brandon essentially wrote those characters as young adults when in fact they are much older. This description should encompass why a 26 years old is called "lad" by all people and why his psychological development is that of a younger person. It should also explain how Rosharian morphology evolves such as a 26 years old looks "youthful" when our modern day references tell us most men lose this quality by the time they reach their mid-twenties.

 

It should also explain teenage Kaladin, Laral, Lift and even Shallan who is taken for a girl. It should explain Jasnah who should by all means show signs of age were she several years older because the sad truth is aging do happen even to the best of us.

 

In fact, if it were relevant to the point where I need to make impressive mental contortion to reunite those ages with the characters I am reading then it should be explained in large details such as to avoid poor readers thinking those characters truly are the age they have been given, in book.

 

We are likely to disagree, but for character readers such as myself, age is a crucial piece of information as a thirty years old character do not read the same as twenty years old one, nor does it writes the same way. So yes, a few more years make all the difference. 

[StormingTexan]

I think we are guessing Dalinar is around 19 or 20 in this scene Earth years or Rosharan years no matter how long they are there is not a huge jump in maturity between a 20 year old and 23 year old (under normal circumstances I will say having a kid can speed this up) and their age difference is still relative to each others even with a longer year. I think it is safe to compare them as basically the same age as far as maturity level goes. 

[Cemci]

Can we just agree to disagree?  Brandon's worldbuilding is deep, well researched and consistent.  Sure, you don't care.  All the characters are older in earth years and, for those who care, it can be relevant.  In the words of the great peacemaker Rodney King, "Can we all get along?."

 

It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't see where this discussion is going. When trying to analyse a character and figure out why they behave as they do, what helps me is knowing their age in their own universe, not knowing their age in an alternate universe, where almost all factors are different. What's the point to saying Adolin would be a certain age that's not 23, if he lived on Earth? If he lived on Earth, his age wouldn't be the only difference.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Cemci

[hoser]

It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't see where this discussion is going. When trying to analyse a character and figure out why they behave as they do, what helps me is knowing their age in their own universe, not knowing their age in an alternate universe, where almost all factors are different. What's the point to saying Adolin would be a certain age that's not 23, if he lived on Earth? If he lived on Earth, his age wouldn't be the only difference.

Oh.  Sorry about the misunderstanding.  I do think the logic still applies, however. 

 

You have a rationalization for deciding that it doesn't matter that a Rosharian year is 1.1 earth years.  That model is based on assumptions about Brandon's modeling.  There is no guarantee that those assumptions are correct.  Someone else could have a different model that, as far as I can tell, is just as likely to be correct.  So your claiming that it doesn't matter based on your model just looks intolerant to me.

 

If the "humans" on roshar mature chronologically similarly to earth humans and they are developmentally comparable to earth people with a numerical age x1.1, then your model is incorrect and people who factor in the relative ages are more correct. 

 

So your rationalization is based on two assumptions

1. "what helps me is knowing their age in their own universe, not knowing their age in an alternate universe"
2. "his age wouldn't be the only difference" implies that the other differences are more significant. 

Without WoB, I don't know that either of these is true.  My observations of the characters leads me to believe that they are more mature than the numerical age on Roshar, but YMMV. 

 

So let's argue based on data and tolerance of dissenting opinions. 

[Ardjet]

How long is this debate about semantics and age going to continue? This thread is supposed to be about Dalinar's flashback scene. Can I ask that this age/details debate be taken to another thread? I keep checking this thread because I see more posts and more pages, only to be disappointed and frustrated to find it's just another page of bickering.

[maxal]

 

Without WoB, I don't know that either of these is true.  My observations of the characters leads me to believe that they are more mature than the numerical age on Roshar, but YMMV. 

 

This is a frustrating conversation. 

 

You personal observation and analysis tell you the book age is wrong which means the "elongated age" is right. Even though you don't have the arguments to make the rational between the year length on Roshar and the physical and psychological development, you insist it must be true. You also ignore the thousand of facts making it implausible.

 

My personal observations and analysis tell me those characters aren't older than the book age and aging them not only creates a horde of implausibilities which I won't enumerate again, it also completely destroys the story. 

 

Brandon has written stories featuring older characters and they were clearly easily identified as older characters not to mistaken for young adults. 

 

So who is right? Who is wrong?

 

Since world-building is considered, on average in the community, more important than character consistency, I'll give you a win even if it completely ruins my personal appreciation of the Stormlight Archive, not to mention it is impossible to figure that out by simply reading the book... I mean why does Brandon even bother to give us ages in the books if they are completely off in a way that irrevocably change how readers analyze them? 

 

Character readers are always going to tell you the "assumed" ages are wrong. It is not even a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, it is a matter of the book not making sense.

 

[hoser]

One issue that seems strange is characterizing the archer as an assassin.  He was firing on an enemy combatant in the middle of a battle.  Killing opposing officers is a standard battle tactic.  While Dalinar refers to him that way, I believe that he is within the normal range of enemy combatant behavior.  The archer's behavior is not really comparable to Szeth's, for example. 

How long is this debate about semantics and age going to continue? This thread is supposed to be about Dalinar's flashback scene. Can I ask that this age/details debate be taken to another thread? I keep checking this thread because I see more posts and more pages, only to be disappointed and frustrated to find it's just another page of bickering.

Ardjet, please accept my apologies.  The following post, if I understand it correctly, seems rather personal and negative.  You can stop reading now. 

 

This is a frustrating conversation. 

 

You personal observation and analysis tell you the book age is wrong which means the "elongated age" is right. Even though you don't have the arguments to make the rational between the year length on Roshar and the physical and psychological development, you insist it must be true. You also ignore the thousand of facts making it implausible.

 

My personal observations and analysis tell me those characters aren't older than the book age and aging them not only creates a horde of implausibilities which I won't enumerate again, it also completely destroys the story. 

 

Brandon has written stories featuring older characters and they were clearly easily identified as older characters not to mistaken for young adults. 

 

So who is right? Who is wrong?

 

Since world-building is considered, on average in the community, more important than character consistency, I'll give you a win even if it completely ruins my personal appreciation of the Stormlight Archive, not to mention it is impossible to figure that out by simply reading the book... I mean why does Brandon even bother to give us ages in the books if they are completely off in a way that irrevocably change how readers analyze them? 

 

Character readers are always going to tell you the "assumed" ages are wrong. It is not even a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, it is a matter of the book not making sense.

@maxal - Is this addressed to me?  Because, if so, I take issue with a number of points:

1. you state "Even though you don't have the arguments to make the rational between the year length on Roshar and the physical and psychological development"  How do you know what arguments I have?  Just because I don't choose to make them in an unrelated thread doesn't mean I don't have them.  As they are not relevant to either the thread or the point I was making, it seems better not to make them in my earlier post.  I don't see how you think it reasonable to conclude that they don't exist. 
2. How do you conclude that I "insist that it must be true?"  I say, explicitly, "but YMMV."  That is the opposite of insisting that it must be true, is it not?
3. "thousand of facts making it implausible."  "horde of implausibilities"  "completely destroys the story"  These phrases seem very dramatic and polarizing to me.  Thousand of facts?  Really?  When I read this, I honestly don't want to engage except to defend myself.  It seems like you are saying, there are two ways to look at this: your way and the wrong way.  I don't think it's that simple and I don't think you have a straight pipeline to the truth.  Your judgements may be more accurate than mine, or less.  The truth may be ambiguous or somewhere in between, IMO.  Divisive and nonspecific rhetoric seems unhelpful to reasonable discussion. 
4. "I'll give you a win even if it completely ruins my personal appreciation of the Stormlight Archive"  Wait, what?  I am saying that I see something and you may see it differently.  Where does winning enter into it?  Believe what you want to believe.  And now, because of one sentence in a post by me, you no longer appreciate the Stormlight Archive at all?  I call BS (and not Brandon Sanderson).  You have written many long and impassioned posts on this subject.  I don't believe that sentence that I wrote changes your feelings about the Stormlight Archive in any significant or measurable way. 

[maxal]

Hoser, please accept my apologies. My post was not entirely directed to you specifically. If you ever want to read the rational behind my reaction, I have prepared a response, but I won't burden your inbox if you do not wish to engage into this particular discussion.

[StormingTexan]

This thread needs a HUG

[Cadmium]

Kaladin

This was a slap in my face - the discrepance between the reaction to a salute.

In WoK it's something honourable - within the rules of war - now Dalinar only thought is: "Idiot".

Many modern officers will scream at a subordinate for no salute when on a home base, but they will throw a screaming FIT if they are saluted in a combat zone where snipers can see someone salute them. It paints them as a target. Not saying this is it, but it can explain a bit of it.

[Sarge]

Many modern officers will scream at a subordinate for no salute when on a home base, but they will throw a screaming FIT if they are saluted in a combat zone where snipers can see someone salute them. It paints them as a target. Not saying this is it, but it can explain a bit of it.

 

That's exactly how i first interpreted it.

Although, Dalinar is very obviously the commander. He's not even attempting to hide, is almost blatantly saying "Here I am come and get me!". so maybe its more of a "don't waste time saluting, we have a battle to win. Get back to work".

Edited November 14, 2015 by Sarge

[Shardbearer]

No, it was an enemy "saluting" him in respect and as a sign of "challenge accepted", not a subordinate or ally saluting an officer. Dalinar had one of his archers shoot the guy's horse while he was still "saluting".

[Sarge]

well, that's even more of a waste of time! why salute the guy who's come to kill you?

that's just silly. (the salute, not your post!)

Edited November 14, 2015 by Sarge

[maxal]

well, that's even more of a waste of time! why salute the guy who's come to kill you?

that's just silly. (the salute, not your post!)

 

I think the salute was a challenge. He saluted him just as you salute an opponent as you are about to duel. Dalinar ignored the rule and went for the kill as war does not have time for honor or it is how I read it.

[Shardbearer]

Yeah, it wasn't really a salute. Dalinar was swinging his sword around like he wanted a fight, and the guy raised his sword to his helm in a sign of challenge accepted. Then Dalinar used hand signals to have an archer shoot his horse.

[flying_shadow]

Ugh. I need more content now.

[Sarge]

Yeah, it wasn't really a salute. Dalinar was swinging his sword around like he wanted a fight, and the guy raised his sword to his helm in a sign of challenge accepted. Then Dalinar used hand signals to have an archer shoot his horse.

 

well, that makes more sense. still a waste of time and effort, but and honorable waste.

[Charononus]

Yeah, it wasn't really a salute. Dalinar was swinging his sword around like he wanted a fight, and the guy raised his sword to his helm in a sign of challenge accepted. Then Dalinar used hand signals to have an archer shoot his horse.

Which granted is the pragmatic and reasonable thing to do,  imo.

[Argent]

Here's a bit of interesting trivia:

 

Yup, that's where it came from! I read a history of Genghis a number of years back, and loved this story, which was included there (though said to be just a legend.) Since I based old-school Dalinar on Subutai, a Mongolian general, I thought that this would be a perfect inclusion.

The origins of the Mongolian-Dalinar link, by the way, can be traced back to a friend of mine, Bat-ultzi, a Mongolian who went about always claiming to be "The Great descendant of the Great Genghis Khan." He'd throw his shoes at people if they offended him. He was such a character that I got very interested in Mongolian practices and history.

EDIT: More tidbits. Rock and his culture started Mongolian long, long ago. (98-99 era, when I first wrote him.) As Roshar in general (and the Alethi in specific) became more Asian in look and less Semitic (though they are still a mash-up) I decided to push Rock's people in the direction of a human/parsh hybrid strain. This also was part of moving Rock himself from Yolen to Roshar, following after Dalinar and some other characters, who came earlier during the original Dragonsteel/Stormlight split in the early 2000s.

These changes drove the Horneaters away from Mongolian influences, though I can't say specifically where the Polynesian/Russian mashup came from. I liked how it read, and felt the linguistics supported the accent. These changes, of course, had a domino effect that resulted in the Veden people gaining their occasional red hair and fair skin from Horneater relation, which means Shallan is part parshman--though the relation is distant at this point.

[Stormgate]

I, for one, do not like the Blackthorn. I prefer the Bondsmith we know and respect.