surge v. surge

[Oudeis]

Could Lift Slick her way out of a Full Lashing?

[Satsuoni]

Yes

Edit:

Waah, I cannot stand it anymore. Perhaps I should elaborate.

Presumably, the Full Lashing is based on Pressure or Atmospheric Pressure, by pressing the two things together so that the created friction overcomes any attempt to move the objects. Though there is some uncertainty about this - there are bondspren attracted to the connected surfaces, and I am not sure what do they do with Pressure. Or where the said pressure is applied. Regardless, in most models the bonding is secondary to pressure, and pressure isn't applied laterally. Now, Slicking works directly on the ability of two substrates to form bonds (mostly electrostatic), as well as increasing the smoothness (possibly by creating a small layer similar to force field over affected surface). As such, it should be more effective in combating friction than Full Lashing is in creating it, so, with the same amount of spent Stormlight, Slicking from Full Lashing should be possible.

There may be several other possibilities, depending on the application of Pressure, such as:

* Lift capable of sliding around on surface without separating from it

* Lift capable of rotating in place without sliding (if the pressure is applied from all directions, forming a kind of wall)

But in general, I would say that , IMO, it should be possible.

editedit:

Full lashing is not gravity based:

 

A Full Lashing might seem very similar to a Basic Lashing, but they worked on very different principles. While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force (or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion—binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have had something to do with atmospheric pressure.

Edited December 2, 2013 by OOkla the Felinicious

[Shardlet]

I would say that it is improbable.  The lashing apparently effectively alters the gravity you are subjected to rather than actually bonding you to a surface using some sort of Friction.  The location of the lashing is effectively down (the gravitational core if you will).  Trying to slick your way out of it seems like it would be like trying to climb out of a giant plastic bowl coated in vegetable oil. 

[Oudeis]

I would say that it is improbable. The lashing apparently effectively alters the gravity you are subjected to rather than actually bonding you to a surface using some sort of Friction. The location of the lashing is effectively down (the gravitational core if you will). Trying to slick your way out of it seems like it would be like trying to climb out of a giant plastic bowl coated in vegetable oil.

First, I disagree. She's held to the floor by gravity and she slicks past that just fine. However strongly two surfaces are pressed together, only friction keeps them from sliding across each other.

Second, I disagree. The Ars Arcanum of WoK strongly suggests, though it does not flat-out say, that the Full Lashing is an aspect of the Surge of Atmospheric Pressure, not Gravity.

[Satsuoni]

:ph34r: :ph34r:

[Shardlet]

First, I disagree. She's held to the floor by gravity and she slicks past that just fine. However strongly two surfaces are pressed together, only friction keeps them from sliding across each other.

Second, I disagree. The Ars Arcanum of WoK strongly suggests, though it does not flat-out say, that the Full Lashing is an aspect of the Surge of Atmospheric Pressure, not Gravity.

 

To the first point, the gravity that Lift is experiencing is Rosharan gravity meaning that it is essentially focused at the core of the planet.  So, relative to the focus of that gravity, 10 feet away is not substantially different than where she started.  Consider, would she be able to slide up to the top of a hill?  Not likely, it would be expected that she would slide down hill.

 

To the second point, even if it is solely pressure (and I am not suggesting it is not), that pressure is pushing her to a specific place.  If she was facing a powerful wind, would she be able to slide into the wind?  Not likely, it would be expected that the wind would push her.

 

In either case, a force is pushing or pulling her to a specific spot.  It seems a reduction in friction would make it harder for her to escape the lashing rather than facilitate it.

 

As a side not, since we are discussing material beyond the Lift reading, it may be appropriate for this thread to be moved to the Steelhunt forum.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Occulus

[Oudeis]

Sorry; what are we discussing that is from the Steelhunt but not Words of Radiance readings?

[Shardlet]

The friction surge at least.

[Satsuoni]

Well, the configuration of wind that would push an object to a certain place, as opposed in a direction, is highly nontrivial (as in, the only one I can think of includes a sink under the object that does not affect other objects and includes moving air towards object) Normal pressure configuration is from above the object pushing it in place, and that can be overcome by decreased friction.

[Shardlet]

Ok, fine.  For the sake of illustration, lets represent pressure as jets of water on a 2D grid.  To hold a person or an object in a location on the grid, there should be jets of water coming from every direction on that 2D grid focused on the point of holding (not simply a single direction normal to the grid).  There is equal pressure in every 2D direction pushing the person or object to the point of holding.  Decreasing the friction between tha person or object and the grid would reduce the capability of the person or object to move in opposition to the pressure.

 

It seems that you guys are assuming that the pressure is coming only from a single direction.  I personally think this is unlikely.

[Swimmingly]

I assumed that it simply created a vacuum between the objects, using the stormlight to maintain microscopic supercells of vacuum, thus preventing them from being drawn apart

[Oudeis]

Ok, fine. For the sake of illustration, lets represent pressure as jets of water on a 2D grid. To hold a person or an object in a location on the grid, there should be jets of water coming from every direction on that 2D grid focused on the point of holding (not simply a single direction normal to the grid). There is equal pressure in every 2D direction pushing the person or object to the point of holding. Decreasing the friction between tha person or object and the grid would reduce the capability of the person or object to move in opposition to the pressure.

It seems that you guys are assuming that the pressure is coming only from a single direction. I personally think this is unlikely.

Wouldn't your model crush mmost things? If I fully-lash two teacups together, and according to your model that means they experience omnidirectional pressure so great that rocks would literally tear before the bond broke... wouldn't that be enough pressure to shatter the cups?

Or even just people. When Szeth Lashes people to that table, shouldn't they have been unable to breath?

If your model is correct, then I agree with you. But something about your model doesn't seem to fit the actual circumstances.

[Shardlet]

I assumed that it simply created a vacuum between the objects, using the stormlight to maintain microscopic supercells of vacuum, thus preventing them from being drawn apart

 

This is a great thought.  It is of course functionally the same as increased pressure pushing since the force would be applied because the higher pressure area trying to eliminate the vacuum.

[Shardlet]

Wouldn't your model crush mmost things? If I fully-lash two teacups together, and according to your model that means they experience omnidirectional pressure so great that rocks would literally tear before the bond broke... wouldn't that be enough pressure to shatter the cups?

Or even just people. When Szeth Lashes people to that table, shouldn't they have been unable to breath?

If your model is correct, then I agree with you. But something about your model doesn't seem to fit the actual circumstances.

 

What alternative would you propose?  A single direction of pressure which could be overcome by slipping past it with reduced friction should have pretty much the same effects that you just described?

 

Please forgive the double post.  It appears that you posted just before I clicked and I wanted to include the quote as a reference point.

[Oudeis]

This is a great thought. It is of course functionally the same as increased pressure pushing since the force would be applied because the higher pressure area trying to eliminate the vacuum.

It does fit the circumstances better. In such a case, only friction would keep the surfaces from sliding across each other, yes?

[Shardlet]

Nope, the vacuum and the higher pressure opposing the vacuum would hold the object in place independent of friction.  Reducing the friction would only better enable an outside force to overcome the attraction.

 

Edit: The applied force (whether from an induced vacuum or an increased pressure) is an applied force which keeps the object in place. 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Occulus

[Oudeis]

What alternative would you propose? A single direction of pressure which could be overcome by slipping past it with reduced friction should have pretty much the same effects that you just described?

Please forgive the double post. It appears that you posted just before I clicked and I wanted to include the quote as a reference point.

Surely there are options that lie between 'single-directional' and 'omnidirectional'. If two rocks are Lashed, neither is being held immobile. Rock A is feeling pressure towards Rock B and vice versa. If you move Rock A, Rock B comes with. If you flip the rocks 180 degrees, they're now feeling pressure each in the opposite direction. I honestly have trouble understanding how pressure could achieve this effect without a lot of obvious side effects we haven't seen. Is it possible to theorize pressure in exactly half of all potential directions?

[Shardlet]

The physics of it aren't really going to make a whole lot of sense in any case.  The vacuum idea (though functionally the same as increased pressure in terms of the bonding action) seems the most reasonable explanation.  That being the case, you would have a pressure differential causing resulting in ambient air pressure enacting the applied force.  A vaccum has no effect unless coupled with a pressure differential (i.e., one is not sucked into space but is instead bown into space). The biggest problem I have with the vacuum idea is that you can't get more empty than empty.  So, compounding lashings beyond actual vacuum would be ineffective.  I also have doubts as to capability of ambient atospheric pressure being able to apply sufficient force.

 

The key take away is that rock A is bonded to rock B by the force of the lashing.  The force applied by the lashing is independent of rock A's position relative to rock B.

[Kurkistan]

I assumed that it simply created a vacuum between the objects, using the stormlight to maintain microscopic supercells of vacuum, thus preventing them from being drawn apart

This whole "science" thing has not historically been my friend, but I very much like this. Simplified things neatly, and perhaps we could even explain away "bindspren " as "vacuumspren", assuming that such spren need to have some real relation to that which they are associated with beyond mere perceptions.

[Oudeis]

This whole "science" thing has not historically been my friend, but I very much like this. Simplified things neatly, and perhaps we could even explain away "bindspren " as "vacuumspren", assuming that such spren need to have some real relation to that which they are associated with beyond mere perceptions.

They can still be bindspren. Whether it's via vacuum, glue, or held together with string, two things are bound together. Flamespren presumably show up regardless of type of wood burned, or even if you're burning charcoal, or anthracite.

[Kurkistan]

They can still be bindspren. Whether it's via vacuum, glue, or held together with string, two things are bound together. Flamespren presumably show up regardless of type of wood burned, or even if you're burning charcoal, or anthracite.

Yes, but in the case of vacuum the things aren't really "bound". I refer you to Shardlet's point that two Full-Lashed objects would not stick together in vacuum, which I find to be appropriate given that it's supposed to be atmospheric pressure that we're dealing with. Whereas string and glue don't depend on strictly defined external conditions to function in a "binding" capacity, vacuum binding things together relies on an atmosphere to do all the hard work.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Shardlet]

I thought up another tricky aspect to the vacuum idea.  A full lashing works even when rock A and rock B are substantially far away from one another.  If it was simply a vacuum between the two of them, then the vacuum would be eliminated by the ambient air before rocks A and B ever got close to one another.  It seems that any use of actual pressure requires at least a significant amount of handwavium. 

[Kurkistan]

I thought up another tricky aspect to the vacuum idea. A full lashing works even when rock A and rock B are substantially far away from one another. If it was simply a vacuum between the two of them, then the vacuum would be eliminated by the ambient air before rocks A and B ever got close to one another. It seems that any use of actual pressure requires at least a significant amount of handwavium.

Forgive me if I'm simply recalling things wrong, but my understanding is that Full Lashings require the objects to touch before sticking them together. They don't suddenly pull objects together from afar, but instead keep them together once they make contact

Szeth "paints" a Full Lashing onto one surface, then brings it into contact with another in order to bind them together.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Shardlet]

Ah, I am very foggy on these things.  You are likely correct.  that being the case vacuum is rather happy and friendly except for the need for the atmospheric pressure to apply the actual force.

[Gloom]

I see surge vs surge more like rock-paper-scissors. A full lashing may catch someone using the friction surge, but someone with the Transportation surge would be able to travel out of it. Someone with Lightweaving could make you think they escaped, or cause your to lash the wrong location. A Dustbringer might get caught in the surge and blow the other Surgebinder to little bitty pieces. I don't think all surges are equal against each other. If this was the case, then all Orders would be equally combat efficient.