New Terminology: Initiation

[Ari]

But remember that a power without sentience will develop its own sentience. So it's possible that an Endowment splinter, not given to make a Returned, would eventually gain sentience, and so I still don't think we know enough to definitively say they are different.

 

As for the Jindo, remember that the Dula are half Arelish, and so it's very possible that the Dula can't use ChayShan, and considering the only true Jindo we meet is Shuden, and the fact that ChayShan only happens once in the novel, we really don't know the extent to which the Jindo can access the Dor. At least I don't recall Shuden commenting on it. And in regards to it being unique, we know each of the magics are regionally unique on Sel. Considering the vast differences they show in channeling the Dor, I wouldn't be surprised to learn they Initiate differently, but then I do think it's a bit of a stretch. My point stands though, we don't know enough about other magics to definitively state that Nalthian magic is an outlier.

 

Except we have no examples of Splinters of Endowment that haven't glommed onto a body and achieved sentience indirectly, so now you're saying we can't come to conclusions about Returned being different from other Splinters because you are speculating there are Splinters of Endowment out there that aren't returned. That doesn't actually matter- that just means that Returned would also be different from these other Splinters you're speculating about. (And I agree with you that if Splinters of Endowment didn't make Returned, they would likely gain their own sentience)

 

Nalthian magic can be a provisionary outlier. We know enough about investiture on multiple worlds to start seeing patterns in how it functions. We can't be sure those patterns hold everywhere, but we can speculate and see if that speculation holds up to the wider pattern. Otherwise we're pretty stuck just not understanding anything until the Cosmere Sequence is over, or has at least covered all Shardworlds.

 

 

 

 

Aah thank you for this! I had been wondering if Brandon had coined a word for this! I'd been going around saying 'Activator' in my head.

How I see the usage of the term, 'Initiation' is what provides a being the the ability to use Investiture (so the change in sDNA). On Scadrial it's Lerasium/Genetics. On Roshar it's the Nahel Bond or Honor Blade. For Awakening it is the Breath and so forth.

 

Just for clarifcation (though it'll just make it more confusing) there's a slight issue about the Returned and their Investiture, as there are conflicting quotes from Brandon:

He at first in 2010 said that 

" Each Returned has one single superpowered breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter."

Then he says  

"(Returned) are Highly Invested beings, but the Investiture is not sapient."

But in 2013 he says 

"A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness."

 

The conflicting quotes just make the matter of the Returned even more confusing - though it might suggest that the Divine Breath HAD some sapience, possibly IT choses who to Return, and then loses it's self-awareness? That would mean that it WAS a Splinter, before a Returned got hold of it?

However at least I would say that Breaths/Divine Breaths would be the Initiatior (as well as the Investiture?)

 

 

Just to clarify, and not to be pedantic, the metals aren't actually a solid form of Investiture on Scadrial.

Brandon has said that they are the 'Focus' and that the Investiture comes from 'elsewhere'. He's never actually given, in public, the name of the Investiture for Scadrial - a lot of people (from what I have seen of posts) think the power/Investiture comes from Preservation, however in many of his early quotes Brandon specifically says that the power (Investiture) comes from somewhere (somewhere yet unnamed).

As for the Plants on Nalthis, I didn't think they had any power, they were just an incredibly strong dye which creates strong colours - and colours are needed to power Awakening, not specifically colours from the plant [unless they are dying bricks and grass and so forth].

 

 

The conflicting quotes are definitely arising because Brandon is sometimes talking about "how Splinters generally behave" without dealing with the exception. He's made it pretty clear that there's a fundamental difference between the Returned and other Splinters.

 

The Divine Breath doesn't choose to do anything as far as we can tell. It is split off by Endowment and used to make Returned before it gains sapience, and when a Returned gives it up, it's entirely possible said Divine Breath is recycled again.

 

As for the Metals- I'm pretty sure Blaze was referring to God Metals, which are themselves solid investiture. The Tears of Edgli are speculated to be a solid form of Endowment's investiture due to in-world comments that items dyed from the pigment of those flowers are more effective in Awakening. It's also entirely possible they actually have nothing to do with Endowment and just make the right kind of colours. We'll see!

[Blaze1616]

Just for clarifcation (though it'll just make it more confusing) there's a slight issue about the Returned and their Investiture, as there are conflicting quotes from Brandon:

He at first in 2010 said that 

" Each Returned has one single superpowered breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter."

Then he says  

"(Returned) are Highly Invested beings, but the Investiture is not sapient."

But in 2013 he says 

"A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness."

 

The conflicting quotes just make the matter of the Returned even more confusing - though it might suggest that the Divine Breath HAD some sapience, possibly IT choses who to Return, and then loses it's self-awareness? That would mean that it WAS a Splinter, before a Returned got hold of it?

However at least I would say that Breaths/Divine Breaths would be the Initiatior (as well as the Investiture?)

 

Note that the third WoB there says "certain people in the cosmere." I don't personally feel these are conflicting at all, and the Divine Breath is a splinter that simply isn't sapient. All that third quote means is that there are beings that are Realmatically aware, but don't understand the Returned on Nalthis yet. Plus, when looking at both Roshar and Sel, defining splinters as having self-awareness is completely reasonable.

 

 

Just to clarify, and not to be pedantic, the metals aren't actually a solid form of Investiture on Scadrial.

Brandon has said that they are the 'Focus' and that the Investiture comes from 'elsewhere'. He's never actually given, in public, the name of the Investiture for Scadrial - a lot of people (from what I have seen of posts) think the power/Investiture comes from Preservation, however in many of his early quotes Brandon specifically says that the power (Investiture) comes from somewhere (somewhere yet unnamed).

As for the Plants on Nalthis, I didn't think they had any power, they were just an incredibly strong dye which creates strong colours - and colours are needed to power Awakening, not specifically colours from the plant [unless they are dying bricks and grass and so forth].

 

As Ari says, I was referring to the God Metals, which are solid investiture. Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more specific.

 

 

Except we have no examples of Splinters of Endowment that haven't glommed onto a body and achieved sentience indirectly, so now you're saying we can't come to conclusions about Returned being different from other Splinters because you are speculating there are Splinters of Endowment out there that aren't returned. That doesn't actually matter- that just means that Returned would also be different from these other Splinters you're speculating about. (And I agree with you that if Splinters of Endowment didn't make Returned, they would likely gain their own sentience)

 

Nalthian magic can be a provisionary outlier. We know enough about investiture on multiple worlds to start seeing patterns in how it functions. We can't be sure those patterns hold everywhere, but we can speculate and see if that speculation holds up to the wider pattern. Otherwise we're pretty stuck just not understanding anything until the Cosmere Sequence is over, or has at least covered all Shardworlds.

 

I'm not speculating that there is an Endowment Splinter without a body somewhere, and whether one exists in the Cosmere really has no effect on this discussion. My point was that we don't know what would happen to a Divine Breath were it to not be endowed upon a dead body to make a Returned, and so we can't say for certain that Endowment Splinters are different from other Splinters. Spoilers for Elantris behind-the-scenes follow:

 

In Warbreaker, the Divine Breath can be used by Returned to heal people. This is a mirror of a power that Sanderson was originally going to give to the Seons, the Splinters on Sel. He took it out of Elantris, though, because it was a very extreme instance of Deus Ex Machina, according to Brandon. Now, I don't recall Brandon ever commenting on whether the Seons still have this power or not, but Brandon has said that the next Sel book will showcase the Seons more (and possibly the Skaze). Again, my point is that perhaps the Nalthis magic isn't some outlier like you think it is.

 

Personally, I think that the Nalthis system is intentionally different, as in different by design. Endowment's Splinters weren't created by the Shard's destruction, but rather by a conscious, willing decision to splinter the power. These Splinters aren't allowed to form their own sentience because Endowment channels them into the Returned. Heck, it's very possible that the Nalthian magic fits with Realmatics perfectly, in that it represents the Shard used: The Knight Radiant system involves keeping to your oaths, a rather honorable thing to do, with breaking them coming at a cost of losing your Splinter; the Seons are incredibly loyal, very devoted, to their "bonded" human, and I'll leave my other Selish comment out since you've yet to read the new scene.

 

So I'm not saying we shouldn't speculate because we don't have all of our data points yet, but rather that I think you're viewing the Nalthis data point incorrectly.

[Yata]

In my interpretation of "Splinters".

A Splinter is a piece of Shard's power with a some degree to Sentience and an own Intent.

This is the only difference between a Divine_Breath/Spren/seon/skaze and the Lerasium/Atium/Breath/Stormlight. The second it's "just" Concentrate Investiture without will. The First have some kind of sentience.

 

We know that the power without host develop sentience and I believe that when Endowment "splinter herself" she give the Intent to her Splinter (Divine Breath) and the Splinter develop some basic kind of sentience (something like a flamespren or little more) then the Divine Breath bond with a recent deadman resurrecting it. From now the Splinter had host a guide and doesn't develop more sentience.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

The sentience issue could be explained through the splinter's origin.

 

Apart from the Returned, all splinters we've seen so far have been the result of a shard being splintered (killed), which would include the shard's consciousness. So the (splintered) consciousness of the shard would become the consciousness(-es) of its splinters

 

With Divine Breath, the shard is still intact and the splinters are created by Endowment severing a part its power. This does not necessarily have to grant sentience to the splinters. Also, Lightsong's flashback to his post-mortem conversation with Endowment suggests to me that his sentience as a Returned is the same one as his original human sentience, not a part of his Divine Breath.

[Yata]

The sentience issue could be explained through the splinter's origin.

 

Apart from the Returned, all splinters we've seen so far have been the result of a shard being splintered (killed), which would include the shard's consciousness. So the (splintered) consciousness of the shard would become the consciousness(-es) of its splinters

 

With Divine Breath, the shard is still intact and the splinters are created by Endowment severing a part its power. This does not necessarily have to grant sentience to the splinters. Also, Lightsong's flashback to his post-mortem conversation with Endowment suggests to me that his sentience as a Returned is the same one as his original human sentience, not a part of his Divine Breath.

But there is Adonalsium's spren pre-shattering therefore the origin doesn't matter.

 

Of course if a Shard is splintered and 100 Splinter (as example) are created. Probably some of them develops sentience in short time. While if there is a creation of a single Splinter it's more unlikely that could does some "strange" without many time.

[Ari]

In my interpretation of "Splinters".

A Splinter is a piece of Shard's power with a some degree to Sentience and an own Intent.

This is the only difference between a Divine_Breath/Spren/seon/skaze and the Lerasium/Atium/Breath/Stormlight. The second it's "just" Concentrate Investiture without will. The First have some kind of sentience.

 

We know that the power without host develop sentience and I believe that when Endowment "splinter herself" she give the Intent to her Splinter (Divine Breath) and the Splinter develop some basic kind of sentience (something like a flamespren or little more) then the Divine Breath bond with a recent deadman resurrecting it. From now the Splinter had host a guide and doesn't develop more sentience.

 

You can believe it all you like, however Brandon has directly contradicted that the Splinter held by the Returned is sapient on its own, and thus has no bond with its holder. I can link you the tweet if you like. *shrug*

 

But it sounds like other than small details the rest of us are on the same page: intentional Splinters, most likely through virtue of having an existing consciousness to attach to and not being left unheld, don't gain sapience themselves.

[Stormgate]

Am I the only one geeking out about discovering the names of two Unknown Shards, Vax and Taldain?

[Lindel]

We already knew about Taldain, actually. An unpublished book entitled White Sand takes place on Taldain, and the Shard's Intent, Autonomy, was revealed fairly recently as well. Vax, however, is an entirely new world, one we hadn't heard of before, which is pretty exciting!

[Argent]

Am I the only one geeking out about discovering the names of two Unknown Shards, Vax and Taldain?

 

Shardworlds*