theory [OB] Renarin's Visions and Truthwatching [Moved and Updated for OB!]

[Did Someone Say Kill Evil?]

Voidbinding can see the future, its why its taboo.

So is Glys a Voidspren sent by odium or is renarin being posessed by Odium, who knows...

[Spoolofwhool]

30 minutes ago, Did Someone Say Kill Evil? said:

Voidbinding can see the future, its why its taboo.

So is Glys a Voidspren sent by odium or is renarin being posessed by Odium, who knows...

According to Vorinism voidbinding can see the future, which is not the same thing as is actually able to, considering what we know about Vorinism's past and the seeing the future. It's entirely possible they decided to attribute future sight to voidbinding as a reason for it to be considered evil following the Hierocracy.

[maxal]

58 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

Very insightful. Gave me a lot to mull over. I don't think he will be evil persay, I should have changed my wording there. I do think he will play an antagonistic role at some point tho. We saw it with Kaladin already when he nearly kills Syl to satisfy his own version of what is right. But he doesn't kill the king! He comes to his senses even tho the kingdom will be better with Dalinar at the throne. Adolin however goes through with murdering Sadeas. Am I the only one who threw up a red flag at that scene?

I wouldn't refer to Kaladin as an antagonist, not even in his worst moments. I would refer to him as a very conflicted young man who's trust has been broken so many times he feels he ought to get retribution. It also happens his third oath implies him refusing to allow his feelings cloud his judgment when it comes to deciding whom he should protect. His whole story arc is about letting go of his need for vengeance, it is about accepting some things just are and if he is to change them, he might as well lead by example than slaughter all those who oppose him.

As for Adolin, this isn't the right thread to discuss it fully, we have other threads for it. I have already transgressed the rules by having talked about it. I thus invite you to join us out there in order to voice out your thoughts on the matter and to hear what others have to say on the matter. A lot of people have thrown a red flag at the scene. You will see opinions differ and my own are Adolin isn't going down the evil path which is also supported by WoB. He is going through rough times, he is a lot more sensitive then he lets on, but his core is good, so he'll eventually fall back on his feet. 

 

 

[KnightofLight]

16 minutes ago, maxal said:

I wouldn't refer to Kaladin as an antagonist, not even in his worst moments. I would refer to him as a very conflicted young man who's trust has been broken so many times he feels he ought to get retribution. It also happens his third oath implies him refusing to allow his feelings cloud his judgment when it comes to deciding whom he should protect. His whole story arc is about letting go of his need for vengeance, it is about accepting some things just are and if he is to change them, he might as well lead by example than slaughter all those who oppose him.

As for Adolin, this isn't the right thread to discuss it fully, we have other threads for it. I have already transgressed the rules by having talked about it. I thus invite you to join us out there in order to voice out your thoughts on the matter and to hear what others have to say on the matter. A lot of people have thrown a red flag at the scene. You will see opinions differ and my own are Adolin isn't going down the evil path which is also supported by WoB. He is going through rough times, he is a lot more sensitive then he lets on, but his core is good, so he'll eventually fall back on his feet. 

 

 

Sorry I am new to this site. Didn't know the rules. 

[maxal]

48 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

Sorry I am new to this site. Didn't know the rules. 

Nah this isn't a hard rule... A lot of discussions go out of topic, but it is preferable, when it does, to either start a new thread and/or join an already existing one. Adolin is a subject which has been discussed a lot over the last three years, so if you are interested in reading more about him, there are many threads for you to explore. The one I linked is the lasted one, so the more "up to date". If you were to read stuff we wrote three years ago, you would see how opinions have evolved since, including my own. I wouldn't recommend going as far into your readings unless you are particularly curious. The old threads contain a lot of out of date information.

Don't feel bad about it: I'm the one who made the discussion derail.... but if you want to continue the discussion you can more onto the other thread or start a new one. I think the other people who are following this thread would rather it remains focus on Renarin and his visions 

Edit: Also, character related discussion mostly belong to the Stormlight Archive sub, the Cosmere Theories sub is more to theorize on magic, the Cosmere and this kind of stuff. So if you want to discuss characters, any characters, feel free to join us.

Edited April 23, 2017 by maxal

[FeatherWriter]

Quick Mod Note: Y'all are doing a good job of self moderating (making my job easy), but yes, double posting and running threads off topic are frowned upon. Thanks, everyone, for helping to keep the thread tidy. I don't think we derailed too much in here!

Now then, as theory poster, I don't know if I ever discussed resonances re: Renarin. I'm... pretty unconvinced that the future thing is a resonance. Again, it just doesn't seem to be on par with other resonances. They don't match up. Resonances seem like little perks or quirks of each order, which kind of make them unique or help them out. I mean, Windrunners get more squires, Lightweavers get good memories, and Truthwatchers get all-consuming and utterly uncontrollable visions of the future, which entirely take over their body?

It just doesn't line up, for me. We're talking about very different classes of things here.

[ccstat]

One thing I don't really follow/agree with is the argument that the glyphs are sloppy because Renarin isn't good at writing.

On 10/10/2015 at 10:00 PM, FeatherWriter (Alyx) said:

Sloppy lines, unpracticed at drawing glyphs. Renarin is not used to writing. He also might have been fighting against the complusion to write as he did it.

Glyphs are allowed for men, and he reads just fine. We have seen him attracted to scholarly pursuits, and I would find it surprising if he didn't excel in this area of personal interest. Yes, he feels ashamed enough that he refuses to pursue it, but if he didn't know he was good at it I doubt it would be the same temptation. Feather's suggestion that Renarin was fighting the compulsion is possible, but I don't buy it. In fact, I don't think the glyphs are poorly-drawn at all. Here is the quote from Rushu.

Quote

 “Ah,” said Rushu— a young female ardent with long eyelashes and buttonlike lips. “Look at the sloppy lines! The improper symmetry. Whoever did this is not practiced with drawing glyphs.They almost spelled death wrong — it looks more like ‘broken.’ And the meaning is vague. Death follows? Or is it ‘follow death’? Or Sixty-Two Days of Death and Following? Glyphs are imprecise.”

Hmm... 'broken.' As in "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." A glyph that looks mostly like 'death' but also a lot like 'broken,' and written in a sentence that doesn't convey a clear meaning in modern Vorin grammar? We know that Dalinar speaks ancient languages during his visions--I thought it strongly hinted here that Renarin was writing in an ancient language, one from which modern glyphs are derived. It makes great sense that an early glyph for Odium would later evolve into both 'broken' and 'death,' giving the translation Rushu provides.

 

On the topic of the visions themselves, I find it quite logical that the surges accessed by Truthwatchers would work together to create visions (illumination) of possible futures (progression). Depending on how you interpret "Resonance" you are free to apply that term to this interaction, but I wouldn't call it that--it's not in the same class as the mnemonic perk of Lightweavers, for example. Just as the three Windrunner lashings are a combination of their two surges, I believe that future-sight is one of several forms of truthwatching, arising naturally from the combination of surges. The Vorin prohibition on predicting the future is not enough for me to discount it as a Radiant ability, especially since Cultivation is stated to be better at it than Honor--and Truthwatchers are on the (theorized) Cultivation side of the KR chart.

With that perspective, though, I do agree that Renarin's visions are fundamentally different from those that a standard Truthwatcher would experience. Feather makes a great case, and the involuntary nature in particular makes me agree with the others here who say his Nahel bond is being hijacked by something external.

Edited April 28, 2017 by ccstat

[Argent]

9 minutes ago, ccstat said:

We know that Dalinar speaks ancient languages during his visions--I thought it strongly hinted here that Renarin was writing in an ancient language (Dawnchant?), one from which modern glyphs are derived. It makes great sense that an early glyph for Odium would later evolve into both 'broken' and 'death,' giving the translation Rushu provides.

People have forgotten how to read the Dawnchant. Navani's work on Dalinar's visions is only the beginning of a pretty big effort. I think there is a far cleaner solution to this ambiguity - Renarin was essentially saying that Odium, the Broken One, would arrive after 62 days, but that version wouldn't make sense to anyone who doesn't know that there is a being known as the Broken (One) - such as Rushu - so they would probably interpret it as "Death" if the glyphs for "broken" and "death" are similar enough. With how elaborate glyphs can be, I can easily imagine misinterpretation. 

[ccstat]

Yeah, I knew including the word Dawnchant would get me in trouble. I used it because it is the only pre-WoK language we have a name for, not because it was a likely option compared to intermediate scripts. I'll go ahead and edit it out of the previous post.

I can tell you aren't convinced, but I still think the text is hinting at a language discrepancy at the root of the misunderstanding, rather than poor penmanship or unfamiliar glyphs.

[Darkness]

On ‎24‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 0:30 AM, Did Someone Say Kill Evil? said:

Voidbinding can see the future, its why its taboo.

So is Glys a Voidspren sent by odium or is renarin being posessed by Odium, who knows...

I absolutely love the idea that Glys could be of Odium and deceiving Renarin. Huge twist: No, you just think you were a truthwatcher because i told you so... It seems unlikely to me for head-canon reasons though, which I wont jump into here because they aren't on topic. I'll make a thread on it this weekend hopefully.

[Spoolofwhool]

11 minutes ago, Darkness said:

I absolutely love the idea that Glys could be of Odium and deceiving Renarin. Huge twist: No, you just think you were a truthwatcher because i told you so... It seems unlikely to me for head-canon reasons though, which I wont jump into here because they aren't on topic. I'll make a thread on it this weekend hopefully.

I'll point out that he is incorrectly asserting seeing the future as voidbinding like it's a fact. That voidbinding sees the future is a Vorin construct, and considering their history with seeing the future, it's possible that they just invented that thought to give a reason why seeing the future should be avoided.

[Yata]

22 minutes ago, Darkness said:

I absolutely love the idea that Glys could be of Odium and deceiving Renarin. Huge twist: No, you just think you were a truthwatcher because i told you so... It seems unlikely to me for head-canon reasons though, which I wont jump into here because they aren't on topic. I'll make a thread on it this weekend hopefully.

I am very doubtful in this. Fake Radiancy is quite impossible if you know something of them.

Your Powers Will not fit and you will discovered Soon. Much more all' the Spren in the room at the end of WoR didn't notice something wrong with Renarin or his Spren (plus the Stormfather Who Just passed there)

Edited April 28, 2017 by Yata

[Darkness]

both of you are absolutely correct, and those are two of the reasons I think it isn't going to happen. But I still think it would be an awesome plot twist haha

[Beast_c_a_t]

I would like to point out that in the Cosmere "seeing the future" and "predicting the future" are two different things. Apart from the Vorin superstition that all foreseeing is evil, Voinbinders are always said to have tried to divine or prefect the future. This is (locally) a power of Odium, and to a lesser extent Cultivation, but something Honor isn't any good at. This is most evident in Dalinar's visions, where Honor could see that the Everstorm would come but wasn't able to predict when, so he had to leave pre-recorded visions with the Stormfather to be delivered at the appropriate time. I think a Truthwatcher's ability to see the future is like Honor's, they can see the general "shape" and major events like the Everstorm but can't tell when or how likely unless it is unavoidable. Renarin's countdown doesn't seem to start until the Everstorm is already basically started(Listeners have decided to join with voidspren and it's only a matter of time), so it's more a warning of what's going on now then a prediction of the future. I don't think that the timing or Renarin's actions are the results of an outside influence, but the heavily invested nature of the Highstorm turning his foresight from a "whisper" into a "shout" causing him to be overwhelmed and react with compulsive behavior.

[avus]

Dalinar and Renarin. Involuntary sight... Sounds like a familial gift and a curse. What did Dalinar ask the Nightwatcher for?

[AbsentKeeper]

3 hours ago, avus said:

Dalinar and Renarin. Involuntary sight... Sounds like a familial gift and a curse. What did Dalinar ask the Nightwatcher for?

Dalinar specifically says that he knows both his boon and his curse, and he doesn't think his visions are related.

Granted, he doesn't make it seem like he knows for sure, but still worth pointing out.

[FiveLate]

16 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Dalinar specifically says that he knows both his boon and his curse, and he doesn't think his visions are related.

Granted, he doesn't make it seem like he knows for sure, but still worth pointing out.

But is he right?  He may think he knows them, but he could still be wrong.

[AbsentKeeper]

40 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

But is he right?  He may think he knows them, but he could still be wrong.

This is why I added the second bit to my post, even Dalinar himself only seems reasonably sure about the fact that they aren't connected, at the point in the story where he discusses it with his sons.

 It still seems unlikely to me that he wouldn't know pretty solidly what they are though, being that he lives with them, unless he assumes (like us) that forgetting his wife is his curse and/or boon, while it's actually something unrelated.

Don't know what else could make him forget though.

*insert half baked theory regarding obscure breath commands we only saw once here*

But that's a discussion for another topic, I think.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Cowmanthethird
Added a joke that I thought of too late

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Hmmm. Sry, going to be lazy as dont have time ATM to look for it but I memba reading somewhere something about "cracks" involving spirit webs and how much investiture an individual can use and this being related to trauma. I think this discussion revolved around mistborn snapping..

Regarding this post, maybe its a lil of collumn a and a lil of column b.

Meaning: Truthwatchers have this vision perk but Renni is more.. impacting or convulsive due to past trauma = epilepsy?

Dont think its going to be that easy. Mr S does like his depth and misdirections..

!~ HIF ~!

 

In regards to Odiums influence, I've conjured a theory that hes subtly attacking all the potential Radiants. Would be a great way to end the war before it begins by removing his enemies biggest players or.. Further discredit them.

E.g. Knights Radiants aren't historically viewed in a good light and are seen as betrayers.. Than the time comes and we need them and humanity still doesnt trust the KR ontop of them being unstable and crazy (due to Odious infuence).. Wont be looking good for the good guys 

In regards to our current lovelies being.. manipulated:

Kaladins depression and escalating hate.

Shallans fears and self confidence and self loathing

Szeths self loathing and hate

Hmmmm... reading it written down, its sounding a bit flimsy..

But you cant deny the above 3 have all had profound hate in their lives. And we all know who the master of hate is.!

I wonder if these "cracks" would be like a back door for Shardic influence?

I can see an unmade being a part of this..

!~ HIF ~!

 

1 more!!

Regarding Renni and his potentially male spren. What if this has to do with..

Ahemm..

Sexuality?

You know.. whos attracting who here and all that.?

There's also something about self perception that could back this up but im not sure how all thas works..

Ahemm..

I dont know if that came out right.. 

** awkwardly looks around **

... Is this the right place to talk about this?

!~ HIF ~!

Edited September 5, 2017 by FeatherWriter
Please do not multi-post.

[ccstat]

On 8/16/2017 at 6:13 PM, Cowmanthethird said:

Don't know what else could make him forget though.

*insert half baked theory regarding obscure breath commands we only saw once here*

I didn't even think of that!

Zahel does appear to have been around the family long enough to make it plausible. Seems pretty out of character for him in this context, and I doubt the Nightwatcher is a red herring here, but as a long shot theory I really like it.

[AbsentKeeper]

2 hours ago, ccstat said:

I didn't even think of that!

Zahel does appear to have been around the family long enough to make it plausible. Seems pretty out of character for him in this context, and I doubt the Nightwatcher is a red herring here, but as a long shot theory I really like it.

Its definitely a long shot, especially since theres a WoB that says he hasn't figured out how to awaken with Stormlight. I suppose he could have some real real breaths stored somewhere for an emergency though. 

As far as the Nightwatcher being a red herring, I wouldn't put that past Brandon at all, especially since its so easy to explain why someone doesn't remember how they got memory loss. I do seriously doubt it's this specific circustance though, both for logical reasons and, as you said, because it would be very out of character.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[FeatherWriter]

@Hoids Imaginary Friend I've consolidated your posts into one and hidden the others. Please do not post multiple times. If you need to add something else onto your post, please use the "Edit" button. Thank you.

Also, I believe Brandon has debunked the idea that the genders of Nahel bond spren are related to a Radiant's sexuality.

[Andy92]

I was reading the Listener's Songs and thought about this thread when I read this.

Quote

Nightform predicting what will be, 
As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. 
A new storm will come, someday to break. 
A new storm a new world to make. 
A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.

To me it seems like a Nightform Listener could predict a new storm, which is what Renarin does with the Everstorm when he's sketching the countdown on the walls. 

My gut instinct is that Nightform Listener spren and Truthwatcher spren are both related to Cultivation, not necessarily Odium. 

[The One Who Connects]

46 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

My gut instinct is that Nightform Listener spren and Truthwatcher spren are both related to Cultivation, not necessarily Odium. 

The Parshendi Gods are "of Odium," and Nightform is mentioned as being around when the Gods weren't, so I can agree with you here about it being a Spren of Cultivation.

[FeatherWriter]

=== OATHBRINGER SPOILERS START HERE. THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN MOVED ===

Where there is great theory, there must also be great bragging and therefore please allow me to say:

I FREAKING CALLED IT!

From what I see, this theory is case closed as of Oathbringer and is proven right. Now, as for the specifics for what is actually happening with Renarin as of the end of OB, I am going to type up my thoughts on that subject in another thread, since this theory is done with! But yes, for the mean time, consider this my warning that I will be utterly insufferable about calling this reveal for at least the next...

...forever.

Did anyone else see it coming as you were going through Oathbringer, or did Sanderson manage to convince you otherwise?