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2 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Is it something you cannot divulge right now because reasons.... or is it more like you don't have the time to organize the thoughts?

Very much the latter. There is a scene in The Way of Kings when Dalinar thinks to himself "What would Renarin think?" and the context of the scene makes it seem (to me) very likely that Dalinar would feel ashamed if Renarin (specifically - both of his sons are in the scene) found out how Dalinar's meeting with the Nightwatcher went. Which suggests he - Renarin - is somehow involved. My latest hypothesis on the topic is that Renaring ended up with the blood disease because of Dalinar's visit.

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14 minutes ago, Argent said:

Very much the latter. There is a scene in The Way of Kings when Dalinar thinks to himself "What would Renarin think?" and the context of the scene makes it seem (to me) very likely that Dalinar would feel ashamed if Renarin (specifically - both of his sons are in the scene) found out how Dalinar's meeting with the Nightwatcher went. Which suggests he - Renarin - is somehow involved. My latest hypothesis on the topic is that Renaring ended up with the blood disease because of Dalinar's visit.

So, two competing interpretations possible.

Version 1: Boon: Evi => Shshshshshhh.  Curse => Renarin's health [*]

Version 2: Boon: Something that might help Renarin with his disease [**]. Curse: Evi ==> Shshshshshsh.

 

[*] Most of the other curses we saw, I think, were mental in nature: things of perception, whereas the boons could've been anything. This supports the idea that Shshshsh is the curse part of the deal.

[**] Sending a spren to bond Renarin may be Nightwatcher's way of healing the boy (hey, it seems to have worked, no?). Truthwatching appears to be on the Cultivation's side of the double eye, so there. This might also explain why Glys is a boy - if this is a special deal from Nightwatcher, she may have selected someone, rather than relying on the standard boy-girl pairing (which reminds me a lot of Philip Pullman's daemons - wow - I get to bring him up twice in a row in these threads (-: ).  Also might explain the visions. As an aside, I am much more receptive to the idea that this (Renarin's visions that is) is Cultivation's influence above and beyond the standard KR package, than to the idea that this is Odium.

 

Edited by emailanimal
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8 hours ago, emailanimal said:

[*] Most of the other curses we saw, I think, were mental in nature: things of perception, whereas the boons could've been anything. This supports the idea that Shshshsh is the curse part of the deal.

Very much agreed.

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17 hours ago, Argent said:

Very much the latter. There is a scene in The Way of Kings when Dalinar thinks to himself "What would Renarin think?" and the context of the scene makes it seem (to me) very likely that Dalinar would feel ashamed if Renarin (specifically - both of his sons are in the scene) found out how Dalinar's meeting with the Nightwatcher went. Which suggests he - Renarin - is somehow involved. My latest hypothesis on the topic is that Renaring ended up with the blood disease because of Dalinar's visit.

I am not sure your hypothesis works... According to the timeline, Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher circa 8 years ago which means Renarin would have been close to his teenage years. However, when he spoke to Kaladin, Renarin mentions he has had his "sickness" and his "seizures" since he was a child. Had they suddenly started as he was nearing 12 years old, surely it would have gone noticed. The reverse is also true, had Renarin been so sick his life was in danger, then surely he would have mentioned how they got better as he aged, but never truly left.

It is thus I doubt the timing makes it possible for Dalinar to have asked/received anything with respect to Renarin.

As for the scene you are referring to, I have a different reading. Dalinar has always struck to me as a very emotionally rigid individual having trouble expressing soft emotions such as love, care and kindness. Hard emotions such as anger, fury and hate easily found their ways into him, but the other ones? He seems to have repressed more of them which is why he comes across as cold to others except for those who managed to get under his thick skin: his youngest son, his nephew, Navani and to a much lesser extend Kaladin. All have in common Dalinar feels he needs to protect/shelter them. They are the only ones who truly see the kind and caring individual he can be, others get orders and more orders. 

In this scene, I have always thought Dalinar wondered about Renarin's reaction and not Adolin because he is naturally wired to worry about his youngest son, not his oldest. He hardly ever expressed worry over Adolin: he always took for granted Adolin would merely go along with whatever he decides. He'll adapt. He'll suck it in. Renarin however is the one he needs to shelter, to protect, to shield from life which is why, when he wonders about what his sons might think of him forgetting about their mother, he only thinks of Renarin's reaction, not Adolin's. It also echos Wit's comment stating how Dalinar needs to stop seeing Renarin as fragile and weak.

This is how I read it anyway. This being said, it is highly probable, once the boys find out about their father forgetting their mother, Brandon will choose to present the Renarin angle, not the Adolin one even if the book indicates he should be the most affected by this news. It might thus be I am utterly wrong and Renarin has something to do with it, but my reading has made me come to other conclusions.

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Brandon told FeatherWriter that in WoK Prime Renarin wrote the Diagram. This adds to the list of arguments for there being something atypical about his Truthwatching. Brandon has confirmed that the writings Dalinar thinks he is writing were done by Renarin. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nightwatcher/Cultivation was involved... It's kind of similar to how Taravangian wrote the Diagram on walls in a frenzy.

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1 hour ago, yurisses said:

Brandon told FeatherWriter that in WoK Prime Renarin wrote the Diagram. This adds to the list of arguments for there being something atypical about his Truthwatching. Brandon has confirmed that the writings Dalinar thinks he is writing were done by Renarin. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nightwatcher/Cultivation was involved... It's kind of similar to how Taravangian wrote the Diagram on walls in a frenzy.

I mean, I tend to keep the idea of what happened in WoK Prime as "cool trivia" rather than letting it inform many of my theories, personally. Lots has changed since WoK Prime. I mean, from the first five chapters of it that were released a while ago, we also saw Renarin placed in charge of the Alethi armies, almost get challenged to a duel to the death with Elhokar, get disinherited and humiliated while his father thought this was fair, and then lost his shards, since he was a full shardbearer. It's a very different story.

We don't know if the Diagram served the same purpose in Prime, we don't know if it was a Nightwatcher thing like Taravangian's diagram was or if it had something to do with these visions that Renarin's now seeing. I have a feeling that the fact the Diagram has been wholesale ported to a different character means that its lingering influence on Renarin and Renarin's story arc is minimal now, though Renarin now has different things in the Diagram's place.

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9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Maxal, have an upvote :)

Too often (I feel), the more normal possibilities are ignored, and instead the solution to every problem/mystery is magic, world-hoppers, secret societies etc.

I agree though I have to admit I often have to weight in what I want to read with what I think we might read... as both rarely coincide.

It is thus, I would indeed prefer if Renarin's condition merely was what it seems: something he was born with. It is plausible enough, it gives the character hardships enough and it differentiates himself from the other characters. From my perspective, adding a magical cause to his difficulties seems superfluous. Magic is great, but I personally prefer if it doesn't come as the answer/cause to all problems. I also think Renarin is a more interesting character if his hardships come from himself and not from a magic curse thrown on him by an ancient entity.

I would also personally prefer if Dalinar seek the Nightwatchers for personal reasons. While the curse may end up having ramifications onto others, I somehow strongly doubt the Nightwatcher would curse a boy in exchange for a boon given to the father... and I really do not buy the "Renarin was so sick" theory. Maybe Argent has more under his hat which could help turn the tide, but I currently have to go with what correspond to my personal reading of the story.

6 hours ago, Argent said:

@maxal I will need to reread the passage before I can justifiably agree or disagree with your assessment of the situation. A normal explanation is certainly possible, but I feel the context made it the less likely option.

I will await for your answer then. As I said, I have just been wrong so often now, I hardly trust myself. So let's just say, this was my personal interpretation ;)

 

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Brandon is certainly keeping quiet about Renarin. I can't remember how much Brandon said about Dalinar's visions before WoR came out but my vague feeling is that he didn't give much away - because it was important for WoR. It's quite possible that Brandon is being extra careful about spilling the beans on Renarin (either directly or indirectly) because it would then spoil SA3 - ie knowing for sure one way or the other could ruin the suspense of Renarin's arc in SA3, whether or not the answer is more mundane or more spectacular.

Regarding the Nightwatcher being involved (at least through Dalinar), here's a quote from tWoK:

Quote

“My curse and boon are my own, son,” Dalinar said. “The specifics are not important.”

That seems quite hard to wave off. If Dalinar had any reason to believe that Renarin was affected, would he really say that?

Full quote being referred to is this (chapter 61:

Quote

“Yes,” he admitted. Would that day never stop haunting him? Was not losing all memory of his wife enough?

What did Renarin think? Would he condemn his father for such an egregious sin? Dalinar forced himself to look up and meet his son’s bespectacled eyes.

Note that Adolin is not in the room while Renarin is right there.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Brandon is certainly keeping quiet about Renarin. I can't remember how much Brandon said about Dalinar's visions before WoR came out but my vague feeling is that he didn't give much away - because it was important for WoR. It's quite possible that Brandon is being extra careful about spilling the beans on Renarin (either directly or indirectly) because it would then spoil SA3 - ie knowing for sure one way or the other could ruin the suspense of Renarin's arc in SA3, whether or not the answer is more mundane or more spectacular.

Regarding the Nightwatcher being involved (at least through Dalinar), here's a quote from tWoK:

That seems quite hard to wave off. If Dalinar had any reason to believe that Renarin was affected, would he really say that?

Full quote being referred to is this (chapter 61:

Note that Adolin is not in the room while Renarin is right there.

Another explanation is he might not have finished fleshing out the details. He is extremely careful not to accidentally canonize something he may still change his mind on. With Renarin's full story being several years down the road, he might not have fixed his mind on everything just yet.

I love the quotes. I do agree the first one does seem to indicate the Nightwatcher deal was a personal affair. Though, if I am to play devil's advocate, it is Renarin Dalinar talks to about it, not Adolin. He might have had a reason for it.

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  • 3 months later...

It was said in the books that surgebinding is more like side-effect of nahel bond, and being a Radiant gives you more than this. Lightweavers have affinity to art and perfect memory. Windrunners make their squires able to breath stormlight, if not surgebind. Skybreakers are referred as being able to sense if somebody lies or is guilty. Why wouldn't Truthwatchers be able to foresight?

Personally, i think visions are considered as Voidbinding in Alethkar because Voidbinding allow you to foresight even better or Odium can manipulate your visions, similar to what Ruin did on Scadrial.

Edited by Beatsmorn
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I think we should look for hemalurgy in those expensing visions... it smells to much of what ruin did. Even if it's not physical hemalurgy.... (insert personal theory on how traumatic events cause ruptures in connections that mirror hemalurgy can sdna scars)  hemalurgy messing with renarin is exactly the kind of heart wrenching evil Brandon is capable of. 

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On 4/10/2017 at 0:46 PM, Just another guyn said:

I think we should look for hemalurgy in those expensing visions... it smells to much of what ruin did. Even if it's not physical hemalurgy.... (insert personal theory on how traumatic events cause ruptures in connections that mirror hemalurgy can sdna scars)  hemalurgy messing with renarin is exactly the kind of heart wrenching evil Brandon is capable of. 

But what attribute would a hemalurgical spike even have to steal for Renarin to have these kinds of visions? It seems very different from everything we've seen vis-a-vis Ruin's whispers (as well as Sazed's use of hemalurgy with the Kandra and Wax), in my opinion. 

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2 hours ago, dantlee said:

But what attribute would a hemalurgical spike even have to steal for Renarin to have these kinds of visions? It seems very different from everything we've seen vis-a-vis Ruin's whispers (as well as Sazed's use of hemalurgy with the Kandra and Wax), in my opinion. 

I'm not saying it still any particular attribute, I'm just saying a shard could be using it as a way into renarins sou to manipulate him, like ruin did to vin

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On 10/4/2017 at 6:12 PM, Beatsmorn said:

It was said in the books that surgebinding is more like side-effect of nahel bond, and being a Radiant gives you more than this. Lightweavers have affinity to art and perfect memory. Windrunners make their squires able to breath stormlight, if not surgebind. Skybreakers are referred as being able to sense if somebody lies or is guilty. Why wouldn't Truthwatchers be able to foresight?

Personally, i think visions are considered as Voidbinding in Alethkar because Voidbinding allow you to foresight even better or Odium can manipulate your visions, similar to what Ruin did on Scadrial.

Nahel Bond gift Surgebinding and others abilities. But the One you used (Memory, Squire's Strenght and guilty sense) are Resonances, little extra you gain from the Powers mixing...In this case the Surges. Everyone with the right pair of Surge Will gain the same class Resonance, regardles of the Method from he gains the powers (hemalurgy, Honorblade,.....).

11 hours ago, dantlee said:

But what attribute would a hemalurgical spike even have to steal for Renarin to have these kinds of visions? It seems very different from everything we've seen vis-a-vis Ruin's whispers (as well as Sazed's use of hemalurgy with the Kandra and Wax), in my opinion. 

He refers simply to Renarin could have enough Soul crack to allow an external Force to influence to a certain degree.

I think this requires a convoluted explaination before rejecting that possibility.

We know Renarin has some Soul crack, It's a requirement to become a Radiant after all. But those cracks are already filled by his Spren. He has a "defense" aganist this kind of attack in another level compared to someone in his situation but without a Nahel Bond.

Of course I don't think his cracks will be enough to start with. This Hypotetical influence is too strong in him to be Simply the result of natural Soul cracks and much more a specific cognitive Attack to him would be detected with so many Cognitive entities around.

Notice also how Roshar is affected by a mass emotional manipulation by some Unmades (the Thrill) and the Radiants are protected by their bond and of course the Thrill is not something so specific.

The only way for Renarin to be manipulate for an external Force to that extent is if his Spren itself acts ad backdoor from something (like the Stormspren with the Listeners), without that this is impossible.

Some time ago I made a theory about Truthwatcher's visions, but I can't even be sure my idea is pratically possible

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I read theory of resonance, but i don't agree with it at all. Those abilities are not of resonance, they exist due to nature of their spren and divine attributes and are not necesarily the blend of their power. Yes, some of them are tied to Surges, as Skybreaker guiltsense to Division, Lightweaver influence on others to Transformation, or Elsecaller direction sense to Transportation. I think Elsecallers also have similar abilities to influence other that Lightweavers, as seen on how others react to Jasnah. We can track other respounding to attributes or spren nature - Windrunners Strength of Squires to Leading divine attribute and nature of honorspren (honor binds), Skybreaker skill to Just attribute and Shallan memory to Cryptics` ability to recreate what they heard and their very nature.

We know that Surges create some synergy between them, similar to what we saw on Scadrial (Wax F-Iron A-Steel synergy), and they probably have some cognitive and spiritual aspect, but you're going too far. I think that works more like Windrunners regarding their Lashings as one power, despite they use both Gravity and Adhesion surge. WoB to back my words. 21th and 16th.

*EDIT* I meant that i don't agree that Renarin foresight is Resonance, not that Theory of Resonance is wrong. This guy made an awesome theory which i think explains great what Resonance probably is. 

 

 

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Edited by Beatsmorn
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@Beatsmorn except the Divine Attributes themself are not coded into the Magic but they are an interpretation of the Heralds' actions and the Radiants Spren follow that Pattern.

Notice also the theory you cited is fault in his permise di I suggest to not take It as base for something else (in general don't take a theory as a base for something else...Much more if It's a debated theory) :-)

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We do not know much about Divine Attributes, but we know that Surgebinding creation was accidental, and Honor wanted to give Heralds something to help them with their role. At least Nale seems to be in some way restricted by them. I think they play a role in both Heralds and Knight Radiants identity. Every order has its own Ideals to understand and Oaths to speak, and it seems they are connected to attributes related to them. Perhaps on spiritual level? I think that Radiants' bond changes them in spiritual realm, granting them powers associated with Ideals that Order/Herold represents. Ideals like Platonic Ideas, which Brandon said to be inspired with.

I don't take this theory as basis. I just say it's cool. I'm just trying to prove that not every Radiant ability other than Surgebinding is effect of so called "Resonance"

 

"Dalinar's and Renarin's visions are incredibly similar actually. Both are involuntary and unable to be resisted. Both involve visions. Both have an element of compulsive actions, as Dalinar moves and speaks in other languages and Renarin has an almost hypergraphic need to write during his visions, despite that Renarin probably hasn't ever written before this. They also appear to both be tied to highstorms, since they happen at the same time.

Perhaps most telling is the fact that Dalinar seems to think that Renarin's future-sight is his own up until the reveal, and that he simply can't remember it happening. 

That said, there are differences. Dalinar sees the past, Renarin sees the future. Dalinar is completely unaware of the real world while in the midst of his visions. Renarin seems to know and be aware of what's happening to him, even though he can no longer control his body. Dalinar seems to act out what he's experiencing, Renarin writes."

I think this is just amazing comparison that FeatherWriter made, but that's more behind this. On Surgebinding graphs we see both Bondsmith and Truthwatchers opposed to them, dividing graph on two parts, upper one, representing Orders which spren/bonds are of honor primarily, which Heralds are male, and lower one, which spren/bond are primarily of cultivation, and which Heralds are women. This would make the Bondsmith as connected mainly with Honor, and Truthwatchers as connected with Cultivation. Cultivation sees future, Honor sees past. This just melds so amazing with Shards' Intent (Honor - preserving tradition, ideals, oaths, Cultivation - maintaining progress, life, beauty). We don't know Oaths of Truthwatchers, but Oaths of Bondsmiths are totally in line of it (Honor binds, Bondsmith binds and unite people). Tanavast also states that Cultivation is good in seeing the future.

Looking for holes, Windrunners bind with honorspren and Edgedancers bind with cultivationspren, and spren of Bondsmith is quite unique (Stormfather was of Honor, but Nightwatcher is probably of Cultivation, if not Cultivation herself), so one may say that if it was the case, they should have visions instead. However i think connection to Shard is based more about the Oaths and Ideals that order represents, than type of spren they are bound to. So, Bondmiths, Windrunners and Stonewards would be of Honor, Truthwatchers, Edgedancers and Lightweavers of Cultivation, and rest would be their combinations. IMO this fits perfectly.

It can be that this is just a misinterpretation, and Dalinar and Gavilar visions were one-time event, sent by Honor to prepare humanity for Desolation, but i think that indead there are pretty solid similarities between them and Truthwatching.

 

I think this guy interpretation of graph is way better than mine, but you have the catch. Both Orders would grant precognition abilities based on their Shard Intent.

Edited by FeatherWriter (Alyx)
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1 hour ago, Beatsmorn said:

We do not know much about Divine Attributes, but we know that Surgebinding creation was accidental, and Honor wanted to give Heralds something to help them with their role. At least Nale seems to be in some way restricted by them. I think they play a role in both Heralds and Knight Radiants identity. Every order has its own Ideals to understand and Oaths to speak, and it seems they are connected to attributes related to them. Perhaps on spiritual level? I think that Radiants' bond changes them in spiritual realm, granting them powers associated with Ideals that Order/Herold represents. Ideals like Platonic Ideas, which Brandon said to be inspired with.

So for you Szeth was restricted to protect people? The Fact is the Honorblade doesn't force you to follow a path or an attitude and the Heralds too had the same resonances of the Radiants. In the end Surgebinding at all isn't about an attitude, the "tool" a KR gains Surgebinding is related to an attitude because the Randiant Spren has its preferences and purposes

With this I am not saying Renarin's visions have to be his resonance. Simply I wanted to make you notice how your idea has some problem at its base. It could be good or not, but for now the little we saw seems aganist it.

Edited by Yata
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HonorbIade is just a weapon. Heralds had other powers and limitations beside that, Oathpact or direct connection to Shards for example. Honorblades give no restriction, but Oath Radiant speaks do, and Nale is forced to find a legal way to kill somebody. We do not know, if Heralds had same resonances as Knights Radiants. Some quotes from Roshar "Words of Radiance" seem to deny that. But i get your point. If honorblades were created as a weapons, then Surgebinding was probably built in them intentionally, as a tool. And if Heralds didn't have those Perks, that they are not connected to Divine Attributes.

 

I've got an other idea. :rolleyes:

Being a Knight Radiant requires directly two thing: a connection with spren and speaking an oath. Sprentype determines Surges that you are able to use and some other abilities, where your Orders Oaths - and Ideals, that Order follows, determines your other abilities. This Ideal could be related to Divine Attributes, but i think it's more like Platonic Ideal - Truth, that is reflected in words and actions of Radiants - and kind of in divine attributes. Due to the nature of the bond, your progression with understanding the Ideals changes your Spiritweb to reflect them and grant you abilities, much like passive effects of Breaths or Dak'Hor abilities, as long as you are bound to a Splinter.

Honorblade gives you the first part of the deal, but i think they are different that spren, artificial and will grant you only Surgebinding abilities. Heralds were granted with something more, that gave them great power and immortality, but bound them to preserve their Ideals and forced them to obey Oathpact. Probably it was the breaching of the Oathpact that caused they to degenerate.

Edited by FeatherWriter (Alyx)
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@Beatsmorn

The Heralds are insane, and Nalan's brand of insanity involves following the letter of the law. Is it a coincidence, probably not. But that is the source of his law restriction, not a Spren bond.

We actually do know for a fact that Honorblades allow Resonances. Brandon has said so, along with the fact that Jezrien basically got cheated by that, as Heralds don't get Squires. 

Surgebinding as the KR magic system was created unintentionally. Honor made the Honorblades and that was all he did with intent. The Spren copied the Honorblades somehow and created the Radiants.

Again, edit previous post and add to it. Do not double post.

Regarding said second post:

The Ideals appear to be directly related to the Divine Attributes. Kaladin's first two are all about Protection, and his last two are more than likely about Leading.

You have to act in a way that emulates those Attributes to attract the Spren, and evolve your understanding of what those attributes mean to "learn" the next Ideal.

As stated, Honorblades will give you the Resonance. Any mixing of multiple powers will give you some Resonance until you have too many powers. Hypothetically, I could even spike in both Stoneward Surges and gain their Resonance.

The Oathpact gave them their "pseudo-immortality" and the ability to directly access some of Honor's Investiture gave them great power. 

I actually don't think it was their breaking of the pact that drove them insane anymore. I think it was a side effect of their direct connection with Honor. Honor died, and they felt or were affected by it in some way. This one is my opinion, so take it as you wish

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I love what you wrote, amazing sum-up. Just one thing. Of course all Heralds are insane, but in their insanity it seems that their Divine Attributes are kind of twisted. Nalan hides his injustice behind the face of law follower, Paliah destroys when upholding creativity and so on.

We still don't know what is Resonance. It was said that it's a minor reaction affecting the way you use Surges, and i highly doubt that all of KR powers come from Resonance.

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2 hours ago, Beatsmorn said:

We still don't know what is Resonance. It was said that it's a minor reaction affecting the way you use Surges, and i highly doubt that all of KR powers come from Resonance.

As I tried to tell you before, that idea of the Resonance has fallacies at his main concept as mostly all the Resonances we saw don't affect directly the Surges (or they didn't affect the Surges at all).
We don't know deeply the Resonances, but what we see allow us to figure something of them

PS: Is Shallash the one who destroys art, but it isn't really relevant here.

Edited by Yata
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