theory [OB] Renarin's Visions and Truthwatching [Moved and Updated for OB!]

[iBambam]

I think this theory has some merit, but I'm inclined to think that Renarin's visions have more to do with being a Truthwatcher than anything else.

And if any of the Kholin's are going to be succumb to Odium,I think it's definitely Adolin.

[DreamEternal]

And if any of the Kholin's are going to be succumb to Odium,I think it's definitely Adolin.

While I agree Renarin is very unlikely to be overtly corrupted by Odium, and do think his visions are part of the Truthwatcher baggage, there is always the possibility of him being an unwitting tool, just like so many people in Mistborn were to Ruin.

Plus, I would say that Elhokar has even odds with Adolin of being used by Odium, and Dalinar's despotic tendencies may put him in a dangerous place as well.

Edited January 21, 2016 by DreamEternal

[iBambam]

I could definitely see a lot of the characters unwittingly being used by Odium. It will be interesting to see who/why falls the quickest and becomes Odium's main tool.

[FeatherWriter]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Maybe Renarin is getting visions from Cultivation...? I don't think we can say for sure whether Renarin is a unique case or not yet (unless I'm missing something) though if all Truthwatchers get something similar during highstorms then it could explain why they're (apparently) particularly secretive. I can think of lots of different possibilities at least, due to the lack of solid information. 

Will Renarin continue to get visions during highstorms? Will being in Urithiru make any difference? Will he be similarly affected by the Everstorm passing over?

 

Porting this reply over to this thread.

I mean, my main problem with the visions being Cultivation's is that Vorinism has, time and time again, decried future sight as something evil. It is specifically stated on multiple occasions to be "a thing of the voidbringers" and Vorin society at large is extremely distrustful of anything that even seems close to knowing the future. Think of the bad rap stormwardens get for things like weather predictions. 

All that cultural fear of future sight came from somewhere. I mentioned somewhere that when I questioned Brandon about this theory, he gave me a counter-question, asking if I remembered what Vorins believed about seeing the future.

On 10/10/2015 at 10:41 PM, FeatherWriter said:

Brandon: Okay, can I ask you a question?

Feather: Yes... okay?

Brandon: Do you remember what Vorinism thinks of seeing the future?

Feather: Yes! They think it's evil, of Odium. Hence why I was asking in the first place! I'm very concerned.

Brandon: *laughs*

The fact that Brandon went out of his way to make sure I was remembering that little tidbit gives me more than enough cause for concern.

My poor dear son, Renarin... What is happening to you, bab?

[Argent]

See, the fact that Vorinism shuns anything that has anything to do with seeing the future only makes me more suspicious of Vorinism. We've seen time and time again how... if not corrupted, then twisted this religion has become when used as a source of historical information. Given how many things they are wrong about (and the fact that we know futuresight is not necessarily evil), I really wouldn't put too much stock in that belief. Yes, it had to have started from somewhere, but it doesn't have to be anything ominous, or even significant. 

This being said, I do like the idea of something fishy going on with Renarin. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Maybe someone can remember the quote I'm thinking of but I'm pretty sure there's a WoB out there that states that in the general case it's hard to "control" people, even for a Shard. ie there generally needs to be some weakness or special circumstances. I think Dalinar's visions are the only known case (so far) where it's not of malign origin. That Dalinar's case is so similar does give some cause for hope though. It seems that as Dalinar became closer to becoming a Bondsmith his visions became stronger - I agree that there's no indication that it relates to a specific Surge but it seems likely to be related to bonding the Stormfather. Renarin's problem coincides quite strongly with the first indications that Renarin was becoming a Radiant, so while it's probably not a specific Surge either it's possible that it only started once Renarin progressed far enough as a Radiant.

If it's directly related to him progressing as a Radiant it's less likely to be of malign origin, but certainly not zero. If what Renarin is experiencing is directly due to the specific two Surges that he has (even if he's not actively using them), ie it's the Truthwatcher resonance/quirk, then the equivalent Herald should get the same.

The visions could be both malign in origin and also related to Renarin's progression as a Radiant and also not something that was setup specifically by Odium. For example, maybe it makes him more susceptible to some of the Unmade as a side effect? However, it's probably not related to the one that causes the death rattles since it has moved away (apparently). I don't think there's been any indication that the effects of the Unmade are tied to highstorms though.

Anyway... I'm not surprised that Brandon is not giving any hints away about this as it would likely be a spoiler for Renarin in SA3 - the in-world characters will also need to try to figure out if it's malign or not and whether it's something they should try to use or not.

[maxal]

I am personally within an agreement with Feather: something is wrong with Renarin's visions. I have had doubts ever since I read this WoB she posted and I have to admit, clues with respect to Renarin do seem to indicate "something else" is at work with him. Mind "something else" might not mean "Odium" or "evil", but I am growing increasingly convinced Renarin's doomed visions of the futures aren't linked to his Truthwatcher powers.

Why? The following contains spoilers for Edgedancer.

Spoiler

 

Because of Ym. Because of Stump. For the longest time, Brandon has been lip tight as to which order Ym belonged to. I have wondered why. Why such a big mystery? After all, Ym is dead, why does it matter to keep it a secret? Why not tell us? Why?

I have had many theories as to why, but in the end, it seems Brandon merely didn't want us to know Ym has been a Truthwatcher. He has also RAFOed a question on Glys's appearance. Why? I had thought it might have been because he hasn't canonized it yet, but I then realized it was because it would have told us Ym is a Truthwatcher as Glys most likely look similar to his former spren.

So why not tell us about Ym? Why couldn't we know?

Well, I cannot presume to know, but I am starting to think it has to do with the visions: neither Ym nor Stump seem to have them. If they did, surely it would have come across within their section of the books... Surely having doomed terrible vision of the future is not something any character can keep silent... They too might have done a countdown, but both seem so... peaceful. 

 

It is thus I now think Renarin is the unlikely and unwilling recipient of those visions. Who sends them? I do not know, but I do think he was chosen merely because he happens to be Dalinar's son. Among Dalinar's close family members, he was the only suitable one to carry them, so he got them. 

It has nothing to do with being a Truthwatcher, but of course, this is mere theory making. I have been famously wrong on pretty much everything, so I might be wrong about this too.

 

[Knight Oblivion]

5 hours ago, Argent said:

See, the fact that Vorinism shuns anything that has anything to do with seeing the future only makes me more suspicious of Vorinism. We've seen time and time again how... if not corrupted, then twisted this religion has become when used as a source of historical information. Given how many things they are wrong about (and the fact that we know futuresight is not necessarily evil), I really wouldn't put too much stock in that belief. Yes, it had to have started from somewhere, but it doesn't have to be anything ominous, or even significant. 

This being said, I do like the idea of something fishy going on with Renarin. 

What if Vorinism was corrupted by Odium and its agents to view seeing the future as a bad thing because the ability could foil its plans?

[WeiryWriter]

I just recently had an idea relating to this while discussing this topic with Feather, Chaos, Rubix, and FirstRainbowRose.

So we know that seeing the future is generally considered to be related to Odium. I also vaguely remember a WoB, which I can't find at the moment unfortunately, where Brandon said a few of the Unmade had abilities relating to seeing the future, which we can see with the Death Rattles caused by Moelach. We also have excerpts from the Diagram, specifically the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer, that discuss the Unmade, the third excerpt from the book says "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others." (*)

What if Renarin's visions are the result of a benevolent Unmade? Perhaps it's completely unrelated to his Surgebinding, or perhaps the Unmade is somehow hacking into his Nahel bond.

 

*I know there has been some debate on who exactly this quote refers to, from the context I believe it refers to one of the Unmade.

[Argent]

That would be interesting. It also makes the Diagram quote fit better in a theory than the "Ishar is a traitor" idea (which I also like, independently of this).

[emailanimal]

I think we are missing the most important quote of all in discussing Truthwatchers: the only actual "solid evidence" of what they did in the days of yore:

Quote

Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally inclined to explanation; and in the case of Corberon's disagreements, their silence was not a sign of exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.

—Words of Radiance, chapter 11, page 6^[6]

 

In combination to Renarin's "I see", and the observed behavior related to his visions, the quote above makes perfect sense. If Truthwatchers have visions (voluntary or not) that show (possible or inevitable) future, they have much more to gain from not letting anyone in on those secrets.  

To put it in other way: we have seen the individual uses of their powers. They can heal people - which by itself does not really give us enough of a reason for "never spoke or wrote of what they did"  (and that they heal people without hesitation we know on the examples of Ym, at the very least).  They can use Illumination, which we have seen used a lot by Lightweavers. Now, the uses of Illumination to hide/conceal/misdirect are a bit more on the side of things one must hide, but because another order has the same power it is not like the uses of Lightweaving are a particular secret to everyone in the KR brotherhood (and sisterhood). 

So the reason for secretiveness must be something else.  Being prone to visions would do the trick.

Now, are the visions caused by Surgebinding and is every Truthwatcher a subject to them?  It seems like Brandon is hinting quite a bit that this might not be the case. 

What is the Cosmere explanation for seeing the future? If I remember my Realmic Theory correctly, a person gets to peak into the Spiritual Realm where there is no time, and therefore, there is an opportunity to "observe" things that have not happened in one's linear timeline.  

 

 

[kari-no-sugata]

It's curious to imagine the possibility of one of the Unmade turning traitor. You'd think Odium would simply kill/destroy them if it ever happened. Even if Odium is somehow constrained, surely he'd still be able to control his own Investiture? Well, who knows really.

Turning the question around, if we consider the visions that Renarin is getting, are they in any way beneficial to Odium or his side? It would be quite strange for him to tip his hand in this way. I find it somewhat implausible that this was somehow required as setup for the Everstorm or something (ie it's a self-fulfilling prophesy). So while the visions were definitely painful for Renarin himself, if we consider "who benefits" then I think you would need quite convoluted arguments to suggest that Odium benefited and it seems much simpler to argue the opposite.

Of course, this is the Cosmere and there's other Shards around. It's not impossible that some Shard other than Honor, Cultivation or Odium is involved but that starts becoming even more convoluted to discuss.

[Argent]

7 hours ago, emailanimal said:

What is the Cosmere explanation for seeing the future? If I remember my Realmic Theory correctly, a person gets to peak into the Spiritual Realm where there is no time, and therefore, there is an opportunity to "observe" things that have not happened in one's linear timeline.  

More or less. Yes, the core of futuresight is looking into the Spiritual Realm (where space and time are virtually non-existent) and somehow interpreting what you see. My belief (somewhat supported by Secret History, I think) is that it's all about seeing and interpreting Connections. I think I'll put my thoughts in a thread sometime...

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It's curious to imagine the possibility of one of the Unmade turning traitor. You'd think Odium would simply kill/destroy them if it ever happened. Even if Odium is somehow constrained, surely he'd still be able to control his own Investiture? Well, who knows really.

Who knows how much control Shards have over their Splinters? Syl directly disobeyed the Stormfather when she went back to Kaladin after he spoke the Third Oath, so there is some argument to be made that the Stormfather at least couldn't stop her. He is not a Shard, of course, but he is the next best thing we know of, so maybe there is something here.

I do wonder now if that hypothetical traitorous Unmade has been on Honor's side this whole time, and so it's not so much that Renarin is unique in his abilities, but all Truthwatchers, ever, somehow bonding with the same Unmade (or even tinier Splinters of it). I don't think this is terribly likely, but it's an interesting thought I had.

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

Who knows how much control Shards have over their Splinters? Syl directly disobeyed the Stormfather when she went back to Kaladin after he spoke the Third Oath, so there is some argument to be made that the Stormfather at least couldn't stop her. He is not a Shard, of course, but he is the next best thing we know of, so maybe there is something here.

I don't think there's any evidence that the Stormfather created Syl or the Honorspren in general though. He might well be in charge of them but there's a huge difference between that and being directly responsible for their creation.

Honor was able to compel the Stormfather to do certain things (eg send visions) from beyond the grave. It's hard to imagine Odium not being able to do something similar to the Unmade. I'm not saying it's impossible but it does stretch credibility, in my mind.

 

1 hour ago, Argent said:

I do wonder now if that hypothetical traitorous Unmade has been on Honor's side this whole time, and so it's not so much that Renarin is unique in his abilities, but all Truthwatchers, ever, somehow bonding with the same Unmade (or even tinier Splinters of it). I don't think this is terribly likely, but it's an interesting thought I had.

If all Truthwatchers ever bonded the same spren and that spren is (or is related to) one of the Unmade then that implies (though certainly doesn't prove) then that spren turned traitor on Odium thousands of years ago and Odium wasn't able to do anything about it and Honor (or Cultivation) never stopped it in all that time. Yeah, not terribly likely. Also, hasn't Brandon confirmed that all the spren that bond Radiants are a mix of Honor and Cultivation?

[emailanimal]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

 

9 hours ago, emailanimal said:

What is the Cosmere explanation for seeing the future? If I remember my Realmic Theory correctly, a person gets to peak into the Spiritual Realm where there is no time, and therefore, there is an opportunity to "observe" things that have not happened in one's linear timeline.  

More or less. Yes, the core of futuresight is looking into the Spiritual Realm (where space and time are virtually non-existent) and somehow interpreting what you see. My belief (somewhat supported by Secret History, I think) is that it's all about seeing and interpreting Connections. I think I'll put my thoughts in a thread sometime...

 

That's what I thought.  As I point out above, the historic quote makes me suspect that Renarin is, by far, not the first person in the order of Truthwatchers who is receiving these visions...  

  Perhaps someone can ask Brandon how many Oaths Renarin swore (probably a literal RAFO), how many Oaths Ym swore (may get an answer), whether Renarin is further in his development than Ym (very likely, Renarin is in the company of three people who are past two Oaths/Truths), and whether Ym has had anything that could constitute a "vision" (this might get a "yes" or a "no").

 

Quote

Who knows how much control Shards have over their Splinters? 

A good parallel might actually come from Wheel Of Time. The Forsaken spent more time trying to kick each other in the shins (or directly offing each other) than directly conveying the will of their master.

[FeatherWriter]

3 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

That's what I thought.  As I point out above, the historic quote makes me suspect that Renarin is, by far, not the first person in the order of Truthwatchers who is receiving these visions...  

Perhaps someone can ask Brandon how many Oaths Renarin swore (probably a literal RAFO), how many Oaths Ym swore (may get an answer), whether Renarin is further in his development than Ym (very likely, Renarin is in the company of three people who are past two Oaths/Truths), and whether Ym has had anything that could constitute a "vision" (this might get a "yes" or a "no").

A good parallel might actually come from Wheel Of Time. The Forsaken spent more time trying to kick each other in the shins (or directly offing each other) than directly conveying the will of their master.

If I had to make a guess, I'd not be surprised if Renarin is not any further than his first oath. Looking at the way he talked about his Surgebinding in that last chapter, this is something he's been actively trying to deny and suppress about himself. He thought his Shardblade screaming and Glys and, likely, the visions themselves were a sign that he was going mad. I feel like unlocking the Oaths involves a certain amount of acceptance of one's role and an understanding of why they have been chosen and what they're supposed to do with their powers.

Not to mention, the other times we've seen Radiants unlocking an Oath, it's usually been at a crux moment, which then turns to a triumph as they realize what it is they're supposed to be doing. This happened with Kaladin on the plateau and protecting Elhokar, Lift when she saw Gawx struck down, Shallan when she needed to get into Shadesmar with Jasnah, and even Dalinar, during his confrontation with the Stormfather.

Renarin, unfortunately, due to his sheltered role in the war camps, has fewer opportunities for those kinds of demanding changes. I feel like he willingly throws himself into some dangerous situations in an attempt to help people, such as joining the duel or rushing out on to the plateau, and yet he never reaches that moment of realization of the Oaths, I don't think. On the plateau with the chasmfiend, he's sent back immediately before he can help. In the duel, he's inexperienced with fighting and finds himself defeated, rather than triumphant. 

The moment in the last battle, at the Everstorm, is probably the most heartbreaking. That feels like a moment where, if Renarin was accepting of his role and understood what he was there to do, he might have been able to find an Oath and really progress in his training. But the experience is so terrifying and overwhelming—losing control of himself, publically committing what his religion says is a heinous blasphemy—that at the end of it, he's even more broken and defeated than before. 

I think having other Radiants around, who can help him learn to accept his powers and figure out what's really going on with him, as well as learning to believe in himself and stay confident, is going to be a very good thing. My poor boy's been so scared and alone these past few books. He needs some real friends and real allies who can stand beside him and help him out.

[WeiryWriter]

Just to be clear, because I saw this discussed earlier, but I do not think Renarin, or any other Truthwatcher, is actually Nahel bonded to one of the Unmade. I think that the rogue Unmade might be taking advantage of some aspect of his bond with Glys in order to send these visions.

[FeatherWriter]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Indefinite said:

Just to be clear, because I saw this discussed earlier, but I do not think Renarin, or any other Truthwatcher, is actually Nahel bonded to one of the Unmade. I think that the rogue Unmade might be taking advantage of some aspect of his bond with Glys in order to send these visions.

Yeah, I agree. Signs point to Renarin having a legit Nahel bond. I just also think he's got other things on top of that messing with him.

[kari-no-sugata]

My personal feeling is that the first Radiant Oath is really weak. I suspect it's more of a convention that has an effect because people/spren have used it for so long that they think it does. I have no proof of this and it's just based on a single case - how much difference it made to Kaladin in tWoK. If this is correct and Renarin's visions are directly due to the strength of his spren bond then I would think it's likely that he's gotten at least as far as the first Truthwatcher specific Oath (or equivalent). Otherwise, I think the effect would be too weak for him to have visions so consistently.

Side thought: let's say for the sake of example that these visions are directly related to Renarin progressing as a Radiant/Truthwatcher. Would he have known in advance that he'd get involuntary visions as a side effect of progressing? Probably not, going by what we see with other spren.

This brings me to another thought: Renarin is clearly not happy about having these visions. So why doesn't this lead to the Nahel bond dissolving? Even if he doesn't realise that this is possible it should still be possible to reject it (Kaladin does just this). There's no indication I can see that his Nahel bond is weakening during WoR - if anything it's the opposite. I can only think of three possibilities: he's not really rejecting it (or not strongly enough), that rejecting the visions is distinct enough from the rejecting the Nahel bond overall or the nature of the spren that it doesn't matter, or that it has nothing to do with the Nahel bond.

[emailanimal]

56 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

If I had to make a guess, I'd not be surprised if Renarin is not any further than his first oath. Looking at the way he talked about his Surgebinding in that last chapter, this is something he's been actively trying to deny and suppress about himself. He thought his Shardblade screaming and Glys and, likely, the visions themselves were a sign that he was going mad. I feel like unlocking the Oaths involves a certain amount of acceptance of one's role and an understanding of why they have been chosen and what they're supposed to do with their powers.

I think he must have said at least one Oath beyond the First one (which is generic to everyone). 

His "I see" at the end of WoR is very terse, but also packs a lot of punch. As such I want to believe that he actually has a good understanding of what Truthwatching is. 

Let us recall that we do not get to be in his head, and time is actively passing. During the time of observation Shallan found a way to speak a number of Truths, Kaladin took a level in basassery - so there is no reason to believe that Renarin circa battle on the arena and Renarin circa "major meltdown at ground zero" is the same person. Also, that major meltdown or the immediate aftermath may be when he said the next Oath.  

Given what we know of his Order, I suspect that his Oaths are "I will see what no one will", and "I will see even if this is something no one wants to see/believe".

It seems to be quite consistent that Renarin accepted who he is (to a certain point) after that major meltdown he had and internalized the "I will see what no one will" Oath.

[ZenBossanova]

While I am very suspicious that we have Odium meddling here, another possibility is the Old Magic. We know Dalinar went there for some reason. 

Perhaps, Renarin was that reason. Dalinar wanted him to be a mighty warrior or something, and that is what he asked the Old Magic for. And this is the way that "wish" was being fulfilled. 

[emailanimal]

5 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

While I am very suspicious that we have Odium meddling here, another possibility is the Old Magic. We know Dalinar went there for some reason. 

Perhaps, Renarin was that reason. Dalinar wanted him to be a mighty warrior or something, and that is what he asked the Old Magic for. And this is the way that "wish" was being fulfilled. 

 

DALINAR: Dear Nightwatcher, I just want a bright future for my kid...

[Argent]

15 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

While I am very suspicious that we have Odium meddling here, another possibility is the Old Magic. We know Dalinar went there for some reason. 

Perhaps, Renarin was that reason. Dalinar wanted him to be a mighty warrior or something, and that is what he asked the Old Magic for. And this is the way that "wish" was being fulfilled. 

I have good... contextual... reason to believe Dalinar's boon (regardless of what he asked for) has something to do with Renarin. I'll write a paragraph or two about it sometime.

[maxal]

7 hours ago, Argent said:

I have good... contextual... reason to believe Dalinar's boon (regardless of what he asked for) has something to do with Renarin. I'll write a paragraph or two about it sometime.

I would personally prefer if it weren't the case.

[emailanimal]

11 hours ago, Argent said:

I have good... contextual... reason to believe Dalinar's boon (regardless of what he asked for) has something to do with Renarin. I'll write a paragraph or two about it sometime.

Is it something you cannot divulge right now because reasons.... or is it more like you don't have the time to organize the thoughts?