theory [OB] Renarin's Visions and Truthwatching [Moved and Updated for OB!]

[FeatherWriter]

=== This theory has been moved from the Stormlight Board and updated for Oathbringer. Spoilers start at this post. Read at your own risk ===

So, this is a theory that I've kinda been kicking around in the back of my head for a while, and I've written some posts using this assumption. However, I've never atually gone and typed up a formal theory post. I... kinda made one on tumblr, but that doesn't count, so I've gotta get it up over here. For those of you alergic to tumblr posts, fret not. I'm going to put all that information over here. 

Now, as of the Shadows of Self signing, I've got some Word of Brandon on the subject as well! So it's high time we got this thing out here. I'll put the theory itself first, in-book justification, and then Brandon's responses to my questions.

Theory:

Renarin Kholin's visions throughout Words of Radiance are not a normal manifestation of Truthwatcher powers. They are likely not regular Surgebinding at all and may not even be related to his status as a Truthwatcher.

Now, perhaps this seems counter-intuitive. Renarin says in WoR Ch. 89 that he's a Truthwatcher, which means he "sees." He's been seeing throughout the whole book, counting down to the arrival of the Everstorm. Why wouldn't those two be the same thing?

Well, there's a few very good reasons why there seems to be more going on with Renarin than originally meets the eye: 

Arguments:

#1 - Renarin's visions do not match other Radiants' expressions of his Surges.

Admittedly, we have seen very little use of shared Surges by different orders, but from what we have seen, Surge expression seems to be very similar between sharing orders. Jasnah and Shallan's Soulcasting seems to work the same way, to the point that Jasnah believes she can teach Shallan how Soulcasting works, even though they have different Orders. We see both Ym (who is a Truthwatcher!) and Lift use their shared surge of Regrowth, and in both cases, it seems to work in an almost identical way.

We would expect therefore, that Renarin's Surges, Regrowth and Illumination, would manifest in the same way as other users of these Surges.

As stated above, we had two separate practitioners of Regrowth in WoR, one of whom was actually a Truthwatcher. On the other side, we've seen extensive use of Illumination thanks to Shallan, who goes through all kinds of self-training and uses of her Illumination powers. With these examples, we should be able to make a very educated guess as to what Renarin's Surgebinding capabilities are, even though we don't actually see him using these powers himself.

The problem? Neither of those two surges seem to do anything close to what Renarin's visions do. The visions don't line up with either Illumination as we know it or Regrowth.

You might be able to argue that Truthwatchers use Illumination differently than Lightweavers (which I'll support wholeheartedly, but that's a different topic) but this level of difference is difficult to justify. The more logical explanation is that something entirely different is going on.

#2 - Renarin's visions appear to be involuntary, compulsive, and entirely outside of his control.

[ CONFIRMED: See below ]

Renarin is seeing the future, which is highly taboo in Vorin culture. This isn’t something I believe he would choose to do. Considering the way that he hides this from his family throughout the book and the high level of distress he shows in the finale with Shallan, this does not appear to be something he is choosing to experience on his own.

In the same way that seeing the future is taboo, so is writing for men. If Renarin does not want to reveal that he’s seeing the future, we wouldn’t expect him to voluntarily write things down. Seeing him succumb to the vision at the end, he cries out and screams as he writes, and the way that he continues to write the same thing over and over make this seem like an involuntary reaction, going as far to be something he would fight if he could, but cannot. He loses control and is forced to write the glyphs.

Additionally, Renarin cannot control entering or leaving the visions. While we do see Kaladin and Shallan using their surges unintentionally, we never see them using Stormlight against their will. With Shallan and Kaladin, it is a subconcious thing, rather than something done with them actively fighting it. Shallan is never trapped within an illusion, struggling to get out of it. Kaladin does not ever find himself unable to stop using Stormlight, or toppling into the sky as gravity suddenly yanks him the wrong way without him asking it to. As soon as those two become aware of their surgebinding, they can control it, even if they started unintentionally.

Renarin’s visions show no such control. He seems to be able to feel them coming on, but can't do anything to stop them. Once within a vision, he can't get out until the vision itself decides to end. Renarin cannot do anything to stop or resist the visions. They are entirely against his will.

#3 - Dalinar's visions are another example of involuntary, uncontrolled, compulsive visions which are not Surgebinding.

Now, don't say it. Yes I know that Dalinar is a Surgebinder by the end of Words of Radiance. However, I am fairly certain that he was not a Surgebinder before the very end, when he actually bonds with the Stormfather. And he has been experiencing visions since before Way of Kings started. I take this to mean that they're not Surgebinding. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's the assumption I'm working under for now.

Dalinar's and Renarin's visions are incredibly similar actually. Both are involuntary and unable to be resisted. Both involve visions. Both have an element of compulsive actions, as Dalinar moves and speaks in other languages and Renarin has an almost hypergraphic need to write during his visions, despite that Renarin probably hasn't ever written before this. They also appear to both be tied to highstorms, since they happen at the same time.

Perhaps most telling is the fact that Dalinar seems to think that Renarin's future-sight is his own up until the reveal, and that he simply can't remember it happening. 

That said, there are differences. Dalinar sees the past, Renarin sees the future. Dalinar is completely unaware of the real world while in the midst of his visions. Renarin seems to know and be aware of what's happening to him, even though he can no longer control his body. Dalinar seems to act out what he's experiencing, Renarin writes.

Still, I would argue that Renarin's visions have more in common with Dalinar's visions than with Shallan's Illumination. If Dalinar and Renarin shared a Surge, I'd be comfortable saying that they were a shared Surge. But Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are actually on directly opposite ends of the Radiant Orders. If this is supposed to be Surgebinding, why are they manifesting similar powers in opposite Orders? Why did Dalinar's start before his Nahel bond?

My answer: they're not Surgebinding. Neither one of them.

Relevant Canon Texts and Commentary:

All are from WoR, because I can’t find any significant evidence of Renarin's powers in WoK.

Quote

Dalinar sighed deeply, then walked to the chair and settled down by the hearth to think.

He started awake some time later, the fire having burned out. Storms. Was he falling asleep in the middle of the day, now? If only he didn’t spend so much time at night tossing and turning, head full of worries and burdens that should never have been his. What had happened to the simple days? His hand on a sword, secure in the knowledge that Gavilar would handle

the difficult parts?

 

Dalinar stretched, rising. He needed to go over preparations for releasing the king’s proclamation, and then see to the new guards—

 

He stopped. The wall of his room bore a series of stark white scratches forming glyphs. They hadn’t been there before.

 

Sixty-two days, the glyphs read. Death follows.

 

– Ch. 4 Taker of Secrets

Does Renarin use his powers somehow to hide his coming into the room and writing the glyphs? Does he put Dalinar to sleep somehow? It’s possible. The sudden break between the paragraphs is strange here...

Quote

“Ah,” said Rushu— a young female ardent with long eyelashes and buttonlike lips. “Look at the sloppy lines! The improper symmetry. Whoever did this is not practiced with drawing glyphs.They almost spelled death wrong — it looks more like ‘broken.’ And the meaning is vague. Death follows? Or is it ‘follow death’? Or Sixty-Two Days of Death and Following? Glyphs are imprecise.”

– Ch. 4 Taker of Secrets

Sloppy lines, unpracticed at drawing glyphs. Renarin is not used to writing. He also might have been fighting against the complusion to write as he did it.

Quote

Navani gasped, causing the king to freeze in place. He turned toward the door. The backside of the wood had been scratched with a knife, jagged lines forming a series of glyphs.

Adolin stood up. Several of those were numbers, weren’t they?

 

“Thirty-eight days,” Renarin read. “The end of all nations.”

 

– Ch. 33 Burdens

This is right after the fight with Szeth. Renarin was towed back by Moash at the beginning, and then Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin fought. After Kaladin ran Szeth off outside the palace, he was unconscious for an indeterminate amount of time, and then the glyphs were found when he got back. It’s interesting that Renarin would choose to provide the translation, when Navani is there and could read it herself. I would have thought he would not want to implicate himself in the glyphs by reading them. Or perhaps his compulsion pushed him to provide the translation here?

Quote

“Sir!” said a lanky, long-armed man at the front of the bridgemen. “We were just heading in to check on the highprince, when …”

Adolin didn’t hear the rest. He pushed through the bridgemen, finally seeing what the spheres illuminated on the floor of the sitting room.

 

More scratched glyphs. Adolin knelt down, trying to read them. Unfortunately, they hadn’t been drawn in any kind of picture to help. He thought they were numbers …

 

“Thirty-two days,” said one of the bridgemen, a short Azish man. “A new storm comes.”

 

Damnation. “Have you told anyone of this?” Adolin asked.

 

“We just found it,” the Azish man said.

 

“Post guards at either end of the hallway,” Adolin said. “And send for my aunt.”

 

– Ch. 50 Uncut Gems

I’m mostly putting this in here because it’s another iteration of the glyphs and I wanted them all. The real interesting stuff comes from the discussion afterward between Dalinar and Adolin.

Quote

“They were made with a knife,” Navani said, kneeling beside the glyphs. The sitting room was a large open area, used for receiving callers or holding meetings. Doors beyond led to the study and the bedrooms.

 

“This knife,” Dalinar replied, holding up a side knife of the style most lighteyes wore. “My knife.”

 

The edge was blunted and still bore flecks of stone from the gouges. The scratches matched the size of the blade. They’d found it just in front of the door to Dalinar’s study, where he’d spent the highstorm. Alone. Navani’s carriage had been delayed, and she’d been forced to return to the palace or risk being caught in the storm.

 

“Someone else could have taken it and done this,” Adolin snapped. “They could have snuck into your study, grabbed it while you were consumed by the visions, and come out here …”

– Ch. 50 Uncut Gems

 

Seeing as Renarin is the one doing the carving and not Dalinar, Adolin’s theory is undoubtedly what happened. One wonders if Renarin maintains enough control during the visions to be able to hide himself. Does he have enough autonomy to be able to frame Dalinar for the carvings and keep himself from being implicated?

Quote

“No.” [Dalinar] turned to Adolin. “I think it’s obvious now that I was  behind each of these. Why does that bother you so, son?”

 

“It’s the idea of you scribbling on the ground,” Adolin said, shivering. “Lost in one of those visions, not in control of yourself.”

 

“The Almighty’s path for me is a strange one,” Dalinar said. “Why do I need to get the information this way? Scratches on the ground or the wall? Why not say it to me plainly in the visions?”

 

“It’s foretelling, you realize,” Adolin said softly. “Seeing the future. A thing of the Voidbringers.”

 

– Ch. 50 Uncut Gems

And here we see the reason that Renarin doesn’t come forward with the fact that it’s him. Adolin is used to the idea of his father losing control of himself during Highstorms, but this is taking it a step too far, it seems. Considering that Renarin is already quite an outsider in Vorin culture, he doesn’t want to make it worse. Dalinar is very self-assured even though his own visions are making him lose credit among the other lighteyes. Renarin is not.

Quote

“Prince Renarin?” she asked.

“The wrong way,” he whispered. “The wind is blowing from the wrong direction. West to east … Oh, Almighty above. It’s terrible.”

 

She followed his gaze, but could see nothing.

 

“It’s actually real,” Renarin said. “The Everstorm.”

 

“What are you talking about?” Shallan asked, feeling a chill at the tone of his voice.

 

“I …” He looked to her and wiped the water from his eyes, gauntlet hanging from his waist. “I should be with my father. I should be able to fight. Only I’m useless.”

 

Great. He was creepy and whiny. “Well, your father ordered you to help me, so deal with your issues. Everyone, let’s search this place.”

 

– Ch. 83 Time’s Illusion

Over the sounds of me hissing protectively while clutched around my darling and glaring at Shallan, here we have the first time that Renarin is shown doing something strange and/or powery. No one else can sense the Everstorm yet. Pattern mentioned that the storm was coming to Shallan but Renarin seems to be able to sense it on his own. Even being warned about it, Shallan doesn’t see anything.

Quote

“It’s coming,” Renarin announced from the other side of the room, his quiet voice echoing across the domed chamber. Storms, that boy was disturbing, particularly when accompanied by a howling storm and the sound of rain pelting the plateau outside.

 

 – Ch 84 The One Who Saves

Feather continues to be generally upset in Shallan’s direction. It’s interesting again that he says something here. If he’s trying to hide the fact he can see the future, wouldn’t he keep quiet? Is this right here voluntary or compelled?

Quote

“Brightlord Renarin?” Inadara asked. “Is something wrong?” The young prince had fallen to his knees and was huddled next to the wall.

 

“I can see it,” Renarin answered feverishly, his voice echoing in the chamber. Ardents who had been studying part of the murals looked up at him. “I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?” He screamed a pleading cry, then stood and cracked something against the wall. A rock? Where had he gotten it? He gripped the thing in a gauntleted hand and began to write.

 

Shocked, Shallan took a step toward him. A sequence of numbers?

 

All zeroes.

 

“It’s come,” Renarin whispered. “It’s come, it’s come, it’s come. We’re dead. We’re dead. We’re dead… .”

 

– Ch 85 Swallowed by the Sky

Feather continues to be GENERALLY STRESSED ABOUT RENARIN’S WELLBEING. By this point we’re definitely getting into involuntary territory. He’s feverish and crying out and screaming. I’m guessing we’re watching Renarin on the cusp of succumbing to the vision, yelling out in defiance right on the edge of it taking him over. Then he’s lost and the writing happens. That said, even as he’s lost control, he continues to talk, whispering as he writes.

Quote

“We’re dead …” Renarin muttered.

 

“Someone shut him up,” Shallan snapped. “Gag him if you have to.” She pointedly turned around, ignoring the raving prince.

 

– Ch 86 Patterns of Light

(UNRELATED SCREAMS OF RAGE) Okay this quote doesn’t really show much of his powers. We’ll say it’s here for the sake of completeness and not because Feather felt like raging at the heavens. Honestly, by this point, I’m really surprised that Shallan continues to think that Renarin is mad or crazy. Considering he’s been giving the exact same warnings as Pattern you’d think she’d catch on that this is a real thing. In some cases, Renarin’s warnings came before Pattern's.

Quote

“That makes three of us. Windrunner, Bondsmith, Lightweaver.”

 

“Four,” a voice said from the shadows of the stairwell. Renarin stepped up into the lit room. He looked at them, then shrank back.

 

“Son?” Dalinar asked.

 

Renarin remained in the darkness, looking down.

 

“No spectacles …” Dalinar whispered. “You stopped wearing them. I thought you were trying to look like a warrior, but no. Stormlight healed your eyes.”

 

Renarin nodded.

 

“And the Shardblade,” Dalinar said, stepping over and taking his son by the shoulder. “You hear screams. That’s what happened to you in the arena. You couldn’t fight because of those shouts in your head from summoning the Blade. Why? Why didn’t you say anything?”

 

“I thought it was me,” Renarin whispered. “My mind. But Glys, he says …” Renarin blinked. “Truthwatcher.”

 

“Truthwatcher?” Kaladin said, glancing at Shallan. She shook her head. “I walk the winds. She weaves light. Brightlord Dalinar forges bonds. What do you do?”

 

Renarin met Kaladin’s eyes across the room. “I see.”

– Ch 89 The Four

So here we see what is really the only argument for Renarin's visions being Truthwatching. I'm not convinced. I think that Renarin probably is a Truthwatcher, since there's other evidence that his Nahel bond is legitimate - screaming Shardblades, healed eyes, Glys, etc. -- but I don't take this as immediately confirming that what's happening with his visions is an expression of Surgebinding. I think the visions are either unrelated, or if related (less likely in my opinion), somehow influenced by an outside force as well.

It’s also worth noting here that Glys uses masculine pronouns. Aside from Dalinar and the Stormfather, all other Nahel bonds have been between opposite gender pairs: Shallan/Pattern, Kaladin/Syl, Jasnah/Ivory, Lift/Wyndle, Ym/unnamed spren. 

Word of Brandon:

These questions were asked by me, the first at the Words of Radiance Midnight Release (I'd already finished it at that point) and the latter two at the Shadows of Self Midnight Release. Unfortunately, I don't have direct quotes, though I think the SoS questions were recorded, but haven't been transcribed yet. The WoR Release question is unfortunately very far from verbatim as I just asked and didn't write down the answer until a few hours later. Silly Feather. The SoS two, while also not direct quotes, were written down right after being given. 

Feather: Is there something important in the fact that Glys and Renarin both have masculine pronouns, while other Nahel bonds have been opposite gender?

Brandon: There is something to it, though maybe not what you're thinking of. (Answer is very paraphrased, sorry. I'm not entirely sure what he thought I was thinking of...)

Feather: Are Renarin's visions compulsive/involuntary?

Brandon: There is an element of that to them, yes.

Feather: Are Renarin's visions Surgebinding?

Brandon: *evil laughter* RAFO!

[ParadoxicalZen]

IIRC, i think the Stormfather says the Visions were from him as an instruction from Honour in-book, or it might have been a WoB. Didn't Gavilar also get the same ones?

 

In Renarin's case, I think visions might be one of the quirks attributed to each Order; that or perhaps he received a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher at a young age, young enough that he doesn't remember.

[RenegadeShroom]

While I'm fairly convinced by the rest of the post, I'm pretty sure that you completely failed to account for the unique combo abilities referenced in the SoS Ars Arcanum in the post. Now, given the rest of the evidence, I'm inclined to go with your theory anyway, but that's a little hold you gotta plug up. Cover your bases and all that. Otherwise you might get people heckling you about that....

 

...Not that I'd be opposed to you enduring some frustration. 

[FeatherWriter]

IIRC, i think the Stormfather says the Visions were from him as an instruction from Honour in-book, or it might have been a WoB. Didn't Gavilar also get the same ones?

 

In Renarin's case, I think visions might be one of the quirks attributed to each Order; that or perhaps he received a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher at a young age, young enough that he doesn't remember.

 

Yes, Dalinar's visions are from the Stormfather and yes, it's likely that Gavilar got the same ones. 

 

Which... brings me to my little personal working theory, which I didn't have enough evidence to put up in the main post. You know what I think Renarin's visions really are? I think they're very possibly from Odium. See, there's a bit of follow up on that WoB. After I asked my questions about Ren's visions being involuntary and if they were surgebinding, Brandon turned around and said this:

Brandon: Okay, can I ask you a question?

Feather: Yes... okay?

Brandon: Do you remember what Vorinism thinks of seeing the future?

Feather: Yes! They think it's evil, of Odium. Hence why I was asking in the first place! I'm very concerned.

Brandon: *laughs*

 

Of course, the idea that my baby has been hijacked by Odium is completely horrifying to me, especially because it means that this fic of mine is just that much more plausible. AUGH.

 

Shroom has similar thoughts about Surgebinding quirks, so I'll answer that below. As for the Nightwatcher, I'd be very surprised if that were the case. You have to be able to ask the Nightwatcher for things yourself, which I think rules out the possibility of him being so young he can't remember. Also, who would take him that far? Why would anyone bring a tiny child halfway across the continent to ask for a boon/curse?

 

While I'm fairly convinced by the rest of the post, I'm pretty sure that you completely failed to account for the unique combo abilities referenced in the SoS Ars Arcanum in the post. Now, given the rest of the evidence, I'm inclined to go with your theory anyway, but that's a little hold you gotta plug up. Cover your bases and all that. Otherwise you might get people heckling you about that....

 

...Not that I'd be opposed to you enduring some frustration. 

 

 

Okay, so my thing about Surgebinding quirks and power combos is this: I think it's plausible that Truthwatchers have a power quirk, but I can't believe that their "quirk" would be something as devastating and powerful as all-consuming visions which overwrite their users' free will. Not with what we've seen of Regrowth and Illumination so far.

 

Now, I won't write off the possibility that maybe the Truthwatcher quirk is involved here. Maybe whatever's behind the visions managed to get to Renarin because he has some Seer abilities as a Truthwatcher? He was the easiest conduit because he's one who "sees"? I think that's actually really plausible.Maybe his quirk power is tapping into something. Or being exploited by something. Maybe one of the Unmade. Maybe, as I kind of am growing fond of believing, Odium himself.

 

But I refuse to believe that the visions as we've seen them so far are a natural and normal expression of Truthwatcher abilities. I can't believe that the involuntary, compulsive nature of them could be explained by Surgebinding alone. It doesn't line up with what we know of Surgebinding.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Now, I won't write off the possibility that maybe the Truthwatcher quirk is involved here. Maybe whatever's behind the visions managed to get to Renarin because he has some Seer abilities as a Truthwatcher? He was the easiest conduit because he's one who "sees"? I think that's actually really plausible.Maybe his quirk power is tapping into something. Or being exploited by something. Maybe one of the Unmade. Maybe, as I kind of am growing fond of believing, Odium himself.

 

Now that you mention it, something just clicked in regards to the Renarin's speech patterns during the visions, Death Rattles and the Unmade responsible for them. I can't remember if it was via WoB or was an opinion/view offered by a Sharder but there was something about that the Unmade responsible can't control what is said or whatever it was, mind is blanking so I can't remember. Basically what I'm getting at is when Renarin's speaks of the vision content during the visions, it is rather vague and clipped similarly to the Death Rattles, although it is more focused on events occurring at that time and place so perhaps there is a link. I wish i could remember where that Unmade info was or what it was actually about

[FeatherWriter]

Now that you mention it, something just clicked in regards to the Renarin's speech patterns during the visions, Death Rattles and the Unmade responsible for them. I can't remember if it was via WoB or was an opinion/view offered by a Sharder but there was something about that the Unmade responsible can't control what is said or whatever it was, mind is blanking so I can't remember. Basically what I'm getting at is when Renarin's speaks of the vision content during the visions, it is rather vague and clipped similarly to the Death Rattles, although it is more focused on events occurring at that time and place so perhaps there is a link. I wish i could remember where that Unmade info was or what it was actually about

 

Yeah, if not Odium himself influencing Renarin's visions, I would definitely count one of the Unmade as a close second choice.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Which raises the question; Can it/they determine what he sees? *cuedramticsuspensemusic*

[FeatherWriter]

Which raises the question; Can it/they determine what he sees? *cuedramticsuspensemusic*

 

I'm... honestly under the impression that it/they are the reason behind what he sees. Whether or not those visions can be trusted is an entirely different question.

[Moogle]

Renarin isn't alone in this; Kaladin also has uncontrollable "visions" in the form of his highstorm adventures. Adding Dalinar into this (who was bonded to the Stormfather "a while" before the end of WoR), I'm inclined to think it's not Surgebinding, but it is a perk all the Radiants get.

 

(Shallan doesn't have uncontrollable visions, but she does draw events that are happening elsewhere - in WoR, she draws Shallash destroying a statue, and Yalb surviving the shipwreck.)

[kjdwijdmskdms]

I recall Honor saying something about Cultivation being better at seeing the future than he was, during one of Dalinars visions. Since all or most Spren were made by Honor and Cultivation together i think it's reasonable to assume that Spren that are closer to Cultivation might be able to give the ability to see the future. 

 

Kaladin's visions are involuntarily, he only sees what the Stormfather does (i assume) because Honorspren are a lot closer to Honor than Cultivation. The same goes for Dalinar's visions. 

 

If we assume that Renarin's spren is closer to Cultivation, i think it's reasonable to assume that his visions are a side effect as mentioned in the SoS Ars Arcanum, that is closer to Cultivation.

[DreamEternal]

I... I made a different theory about the visions. One that ties them into the Truthwatcher progression. While I am still thinking about the points you made in your post and can't argue against it for now, I want to show my personal thoughts about the visions.

The Occultation Revelation Theory

Edited October 11, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal]

The thought Renarin's visions may be tied to Odium has crossed my mind one several occasions. While I absolutely have no argument to push one way or the other, I have considered the fact Renarin may end up being the one falling prey to Odium, ultimately. 

 

This being said, I personally lean towards them being linked to his progression, as CognitivePulsePattern.

[yurisses]

“Ah,” said Rushu— a young female ardent with long eyelashes and buttonlike lips. “Look at the sloppy lines! The improper symmetry. Whoever did this is not practiced with drawing glyphs.They almost spelled death wrong — it looks more like ‘broken.’ And the meaning is vague. Death follows? Or is it ‘follow death’? Or Sixty-Two Days of Death and Following? Glyphs are imprecise.”

 

– Ch. 4 Taker of Secrets

Improper symmetry? Hmm... Does this remind anyone else of the surge glyphs on the "voidbinding" chart?

 

I might be looking too much into that...

[Oversleep]

Improper symmetry? Hmm... Does this remind anyone else of the surge glyphs on the "voidbinding" chart?

 

I might be looking too much into that...

I understood that like Renarin has just bad writing.

As for the being controlled/involuntary part, I personally think that he has more of compulsive need to convey information about what he sees than being controlled by it.

As for the Truthwatchers' Surges use, I never noticed that Trutwatchers should simply use Illumination and Progression; but wouldn't it be a little boring if the Orders would be capable of exactly the same things?

[Datan Nomlibash]

What if renarins visions are because he is cultivations chosen? Sort of like how the storm father shows dalinar the past the cultivation remnant chose renarin to see the future.

[Yata]

What if renarins visions are because he is cultivations chosen? Sort of like how the storm father shows dalinar the past the cultivation remnant chose renarin to see the future.

You want to say that Renarin is special within the Truthwatcher's Order and an ordinary Truthwatcher can't see the future ?

[Stormgate]

We literally don't know anything about the Truthwatchers except that they are very secretive, have the Surges of Progression and Illumination, and Renarin is one of them. That's it.

[Moogle]

Renarin is one of them.

 

Technically, we don't even know that.

 

Brandon has explicitly RAFO'd Glys' appearance.

[Stormgate]

We apparently know more about Trell than the Truthwatchers.

[Kaymyth]

Now, I won't write off the possibility that maybe the Truthwatcher quirk is involved here. Maybe whatever's behind the visions managed to get to Renarin because he has some Seer abilities as a Truthwatcher? He was the easiest conduit because he's one who "sees"? I think that's actually really plausible.Maybe his quirk power is tapping into something. Or being exploited by something. Maybe one of the Unmade. Maybe, as I kind of am growing fond of believing, Odium himself.

 

But I refuse to believe that the visions as we've seen them so far are a natural and normal expression of Truthwatcher abilities. I can't believe that the involuntary, compulsive nature of them could be explained by Surgebinding alone. It doesn't line up with what we know of Surgebinding.

 

If this is correct, it kind of makes me wonder what Odium's goals are here, aside from just sowing fear and despair.  Is there something about the Truthwatchers that's dangerous to him?  Something that Renarin could potentially "see" that would give them an edge?  Perhaps enough for him to hijack and mess with the mind of and/or discredit the only potential Truthwatcher we've seen thus far...

[The Ninja Yodeler]

(Shallan doesn't have uncontrollable visions, but she does draw events that are happening elsewhere - in WoR, she draws Shallash destroying a statue, and Yalb surviving the shipwreck.)

Wait wait wait! Yalb for sure survived the shipwreck?! If so you just made my day. Him and Lopen are two of my most favorite toons.

But on topic. Ive never even considered tht Rens visions were from anything other than his nahel bond. That would be so awesome if it was of Odium or an Unmade. But considering he has Glys, and he/she (Glys could easily be a femanine name, too) is explaining wht is happening to him, just like the other Radiants weve seen, Im more incline to go with him just being a Truthwatcher.

Maybe its a voidspren? Masquerading as a regular spren? Not sure if a voidspren would have the cognitive faculties to pull tht off, but maybe.

[Rhaegar'Elin]

I always wondered if Surgebinders can "unite" their own two Surges in a sort of 'special ability', unique to each Order... but I have noticed no evidence to support this idea. So, I think it's reasonable assuming that Renarin's visions aren't related to Surgebinding: I like this theory.

 

Anyway, like others have pointed, I'm more inclined to think that the visions are of Cultivation instead of Odium.

 

There's this idea of Orders being either closer to Honor or Cultivation with the Bondsmiths closest to Honor and the Truthwatchers closest to Cultivation.

So if Dalinar is receiving visions from Honor it's plausible to assume that Renarin is receiving visions from Cultivation: after all, Tanavast himself (or, at the least, his shadow in the vision) said that Cultivation is better than him at watching future.

 

There's this little problem that foreseight is of the Voidbringers... but what about Odium making mankind think so?

 

“[...] The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”
Adolin froze. “Wait, you’re saying—”
“Don’t get ahead of me please, bright one,” Kadash assured, turning back toward him. “When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate and control the people.”

 

WoK 18 - Highprince of War

 

Kadash says that try to divine future is the soul of Voidbinding... but both Honor and Cultivation, at an extent, can see future.

He says that there were no promises from the Almighty... but there are with Dalinar (well not promises, but you get the point) unless we think there's Odium behind them.

 

So I think the idea of divination being of the Voidbringers is false: Odium instilled it (maybe hijacking the Sunmaker) to prevent case like that of Dalinar (and, maybe, of Renarin).

Edited January 17, 2016 by Rhaegar'Elin

[Treamayne]

"The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals."

WoR Epigraph chapter 28

Well, since we know that dividing the guilty is a "divine skill" of the Skybreakers "...for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity," why can't "seeing" be the divine skill of Truthwatchers. Just because Renarin's visions are different from how a normal Truthwatcher might experience it does not mean that Truthwatchers, in general, do not have some capacity.

 

When Tanavast's Shadow is explaining future sight, he compares it to a shattering window. What if what a Truthwatcher "sees" is one glimpse of one shard of that window. It's not sop much foretelling the future as it is getting a hint of a possible outcome of a current situation. Where as Renarin is possibly having a strong vision of specific events that exist in most/all possible outcomes of the current situation (he seems to have seen the coming of the Everstorm, but not that there would be an out-of-season Highstorm at the same time that crashes into it.).

 

It would also seem to me that the visions are tied, in some way, to Renarin's epilepsy. Either he has fits because he has visions, or his visions are different (stronger?) because he has fits.

[Oversleep]

I don't think that Renarin had an epilepsy attacks while Seeing.

Hm. We know that there are three different magic systems on Roshar and Ars Arcanum autor speculates that the fabrials aren't the third one (I think they're just an offshot of Surgebinding). Maybe Renarin bonded a spren of the Third System?

[corwin01]

Maybe this is similar to the twinborn perk that we learned of in SoS?

 

I always wondered if Surgebinders can "unite" their own two Surges in a sort of 'special ability', unique to each Order... but I have noticed no evidence to support this idea. So, I think it's reasonable assuming that Renarin's visions aren't related to Surgebinding: I like this theory.

 

Anyway, like others have pointed, I'm more inclined to think that the visions are of Cultivation instead of Odium.

 

There's this idea of Orders being either closer to Honor or Cultivation with the Bondsmiths closest to Honor and the Truthwatchers closest to Cultivation.

So if Dalinar is receiving visions from Honor it's plausible to assume that Renarin is receiving visions from Cultivation: after all, Tanavast himself (or, at the least, his shadow in the vision) said that Cultivation is better than him at watching future.

 

There's this little problem that foreseight is of the Voidbringers... but what about Odium making mankind think so?

 

 

Kadash says that try to divine future is the soul of Voidbinding... but both Honor and Cultivation, at an extent, can see future.

He says that there were no promises from the Almighty... but there are with Dalinar (well not promises, but you get the point) unless we think there's Odium behind them.

 

So I think the idea of divination being of the Voidbringers is false: Odium instilled it (maybe hijacking the Sunmaker) to prevent case like that of Dalinar (and, maybe, of Renarin).