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thoughts on potential surgebinders


kwirked

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I was thinking a while ago about who else might turn out to be a surge binder/potential radiant.  If this has already been a topic somewhere else, please point me there so I can move this discussion there.

 

If not, please post any and all thoughts on which characters we'll see turn into binders/radiants - and which ones will get a book. 

 

My thoughts on this stemmed from the thought that Brandon might be playing out a principle that certain families may predisposes their members to being radiants, or maybe it's that association with a (potential) radiant or surge binder allows others around them to connect with spren more easily.  

 

The three main families we have insight into so far are Kholin, Davar, and Kaladin's.

 

The Kholin family has four confirmed potential binders (Elhokar, Dalinar, Jasnah, and Renarin - Elhokar is really the outlier here, he sees spren, but I don't know what to make of him) and a pretty strong indication that Gavilar would also have been.  My interpretation of the reading leads me to believe that Adolin and Navani are potential candidates based on their personalities/displayed characteristics, bringing the family total to a potential seven.

 

In Shallan's family, she is one, and her oldest brother had some connection as well. Frankly, this is the weakest part of my theory and I'm very curious to hear more about Helaran.  Regardless, Shallan's not alone in her family.  Under different circumstances I think her mother and father might have had the strength of personality to become binders, but rather than breaking (as Syl mentioned to Kaladin) and remaking themselves, they shattered completely.

 

As for Kaladin's family, I think there is a significant chance that his mother or father or both could become binders.  Their characters seemed to fit the mold of having certain guiding principles they adhered to, and, looking back on the story after WoR, both seemed to have met their potential breaking points: Lirin with Roshone right before Kaladin left, and what mother wouldn't be devastated with the loss of both her sons.  I can't wait to see how they've handled themselves in the interim when Kaladin goes back to see them again.

 

As a side note, when considering the PoV's for the 10 books, with 10 books, each on a different character, we'll probably get roughly half men and half women, and half light eyes/half other (e.g. Eshonai).  thoughts?

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To me the "family affinity" is wrong, or at least is wrong as "innate potential" with surgebinding.

 

Anyway there is "side factor" about the family.

One of the requirement for the Nahel Bond is to be a "broken" people, and to broke a people is needed a great/tragic event, the member or your family is probably (at least someone of them) broken by the same event like you.

 

About the Kholin's family they have a lot (if not most) political powers and Influence. Therefore the Spren may try to bond with such Influent people.

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It's an unbelievably stretch to call Elhokar a proto-Radiant.... He is no such thing. We have no idea what he truly saw and what their intend are. If we based ourselves on personality to state Adolin and Navani could be Radiant, then we have to discard Elhokar with the same argument as he does not have the requisite attributes.

 

As for Navani, I frankly never saw anything in her that screamed Radiant.

 

Adolin MAY make it, but he has about a 25% chance of becoming a Radiant, a 25% of dying and a 50% of simply not growing as a character and remain in the background doing something boring.

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I don't believe family lines have anything to do with becoming a Radiant i just think it's generally easier for both author and reader to choose characters that we already know rather than introducing a bunch of new ones.

 

Adolin becoming a Radiant (especially a Dustbringer) has been discussed a lot. I'm not a big fan of the idea. I think Adolin will take a turn to the dark in the next book. He already started by killing Sadeas. He isn't used to a women being the stronger person in a relationship and with the strong hints towards a possible KaladinxShallan relationship...Let's just say i don't think he would take it well if he lost Shallan somehow.

 

I d however like the idea of Kaladins father becoming a Surgebinder. He's certainly broken, after losing both of his sons and he has the right mentality. (Similar to the cobbler that got killed in one of the Interludes.) I think i'd be awesome if he became a healer.

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I think Adolin will take a turn to the dark in the next book. He already started by killing Sadeas. He isn't used to a women being the stronger person in a relationship and with the strong hints towards a possible KaladinxShallan relationship...Let's just say i don't think he would take it well if he lost Shallan somehow.

While I agree killing Sadeas was a bad idea, I just can't see how Shallan being a Radiant will motivate Adolin towards a dark turn. In the alethi society, men may be the leaders and warriors, but for someone who is Jasnah's cousin and who seemed to liked her to be unable to acept the idea of a woman who does not need to be protected is... ridiculous. And if Adolin becomes evil, it will be in a misguided quest to save those he loves, not because of losing Shallan.

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 I just can't see how Shallan being a Radiant will motivate Adolin towards a dark turn. In the alethi society, men may be the leaders and warriors, but for someone who is Jasnah's cousin and who seemed to liked her to be unable to acept the idea of a woman who does not need to be protected is... ridiculous. 

 

"The world had just shifted. A few days ago, his causal betrothal has been that of a powerful man to a relatively minor scion of a distant house. Now, Shallan might be the most important person in the world, and he was....

What was he?"

 

"[...]gave him time to think. He didn't like how few answers he came up with."

 

This was right before he snapped and killed Sadeas. He's clearly uncomfortable with this situation. He tries to talk to Shallan about it but she refuses to even discuss it. Of course it doesn't mean he will immediately turn into a human voidbringer but i believe that it's not an accident that he was thinking about these things right before he killed Sadeas.

 

It's even possible that someone will find out he killed Sadeas. How do you think Dalinar and Elhokar will react? There's a good chance he could lose more than just Shallan.

 

Of course this could also be the thing that breaks him and opens up a possibility for him to bond a Spren.

It's not a particularly well thought out theory. I'm not saying i'm certain this will happen. Maybe it's because i don't particularly like Adolin, i just feel it would be the more interesting story than him becoming a Radiant.

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Maybe I should clarify - I don't mean to say that families are genetically pre-disposed or anything like that, but just like the bridge crew who has associated with Kaladin has become attuned to his ideals -  by association they learn and adopt a similar mentality - and are becoming his squires, families are an ideal place for a similar training ground.  Beyond that, since each of the orders has the same first ideal, it stands to reason that there is some unifying trait amongst all the orders.  My personal opinion is that the unifying trait is a form of perseverance, enduring through whatever life throws at you and refusing to give up or become less.  

 

Through Dalinar's internal dialogue (and some of Jasnah's in the WoR prelude) it seems both he and Gavilar learned the same lessons upon becoming king (well, de facto in Danilar's case), and that association affected their families.  I see seeds of what Kaladin and Shallan both learned in their flashbacks of home as well, albeit in a somewhat twisted way for Shallan.  Her father's attempt to protect her for years in spite of what the world put him through showed a facet of the first ideal, perhaps even a stronger affinity for a lightweaver - he told a lie to project what he felt was the greater truth - though he let it ruin him eventually.  

 

Interesting that you picked Lirin to be the radiant - my first thought went to Hesina.  I went back and re-read to see what gave me that idea, but I couldn't put my finger on any particular passage. She just always seemed so steady, I guess. 

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"The world had just shifted. A few days ago, his causal betrothal has been that of a powerful man to a relatively minor scion of a distant house. Now, Shallan might be the most important person in the world, and he was....

What was he?"

 

"[...]gave him time to think. He didn't like how few answers he came up with."

 

This was right before he snapped and killed Sadeas. He's clearly uncomfortable with this situation. He tries to talk to Shallan about it but she refuses to even discuss it. Of course it doesn't mean he will immediately turn into a human voidbringer but i believe that it's not an accident that he was thinking about these things right before he killed Sadeas.

 

It's even possible that someone will find out he killed Sadeas. How do you think Dalinar and Elhokar will react? There's a good chance he could lose more than just Shallan.

 

Of course this could also be the thing that breaks him and opens up a possibility for him to bond a Spren.

It's not a particularly well thought out theory. I'm not saying i'm certain this will happen. Maybe it's because i don't particularly like Adolin, i just feel it would be the more interesting story than him becoming a Radiant.

 

Adolin is uncomfortable with the situation: it is understandable given the circumstances. Everything he has ever known and hold for rock solid were just shattered and, for the first time in his life, he is asking where he stands into all of this. Anyone in his position would feel a little queasy at the turn of events.

 

His world has shifted. Since you don't like Adolin, I suspect you never noticed how nervous he gets around the idea of "change". Each time his certainties are confronted with an unexpected event, he reacts by being nervous, anxious, fearful. He meets up with Szeth and he is found lacking the ability to fight back? The Assassin in White suddenly admits it is Dalinar he is after and Adolin is powerless to stop him? He reacts abruptly by putting on his Plate, staying up all night and it is not enough. Hours later, he is still riled up and unable to quell down the emotional rush he is experiencing: he thus goes Blade throwing to vent out. Result? He can't control his Blade... 

 

That's just one example.

 

Adolin, as a character, never dealt well with unexpected events, unless he has pass experience with it. Issues on the battlefield? Easy. He has tremendous experience in battle, so he is not unsettled by it. Dealing with a lost city full of Radiants a few days after: 1) losing his Rhysadium, 2) seeing his father fly to his death, 3) faced his own impeding death, 4) receiving a serious beating and a bad head hit, he can't. So he wanders alone and asks questions he can't answer.

 

Is this linked to his snapping at Sadeas? In a way. His emotional cup was already filled when he met the man: he had no buffer to absorb more, so Sadeas's taunting came as the last straw. The one that breaks the camel's back. He snaps and he kills him: not because he is giving in to Odium (seriously, besides Brandon confirmed Odium had nothing to do with it), but because all his fears for his father's life, all his fears in front of the unknown he had inwardly stepped into one tight knot that exploded. He had to deal with something, he had to remove the bully that is Sadeas and stop him from good to ever do any harm. For once, he had means to deal with the situation: he could do something else than angst over it.

 

This event has absolutely no bearing of the making of an evil person. He lost control over his own emotions. He couldn't cope with the events and he loved his father too much to let the threat walk free. Sadeas had just confirmed he would never ever stop trying to undermine his father. There was nothing they could do to make him stop ever except killing him.

 

It is awful Adolin had to be the one to do this because it will harm him. He is a nice and caring person, high ranked, but yet finds in him enough compassion to care for the low born. It is terrible he has to be the one to take that plunged, but never will he go evil. Why? Because he has never done one single thing, in both books, for himself. Never once did he put himself first, always last. How can the most selfless individual start to actively slay those he loves the most?

 

This just does not add up. Adolin going evil would be terribly OOC, unless he ends up being manipulated into pursuing a quest to save his loved ones that ultimately lead him to worsen things. That could definitely happen, in fact, I do think it is likely to happen, but him joining hands with evil? Storms no, Never in a million years, might as well say Kaladin would join hands with Odium.

Edited by maxal
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I also don't think that Adolin or Navani becoming radiants means they'll become the subjects of a book, or even grow in importance.  We know there will be several Radiants per order by the end, why not have either/both of them just be members of their particular orders, and continue to be recurring characters without ever getting into the spotlight?  

 

I guess I don't see it as any great transformation - in one of Dalinar's vision he's recruited because he can fight to come back to the seat of the radiants to bond a spren and join an order - the guy asking him doesn't seem to think anything more is necessary than he show up to become a radiant... 

 

As for Elhokar, same reasoning as above.  When Kaladin goes to save him he comments that at least Elhokar never gives up, even if he's a screw up.  He sees the cryptics, and I don't see why he couldn't undergo a character transformation over the course of the next 20 years or however long the story arc is.  I agree I can't stand the guy, but who better to make a turnaround and become something better? He doesn't want to be bad, just has a hard time committing himself to anything. 

Edited by kwirked
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Woah i think i might have expressed myself wrong here. When i said "human voidbringer" i didn't mean he will literally turn into a Voidbringer and start killing his loved ones. It was more a hyperbole to make clear that i did not mean that.

 

I just think he has shown what he is capable of if he is confronted with extreme emotion by killing Sadeas. Losing Shallan could bring him to a similar reaction. I believe he said multiple times that he "really doesn't want to lose this one" or "mess it up". It's not only losing her but losing her to Kaladin, who he just started to befriend. He might view it as a betrayal by both Shallan and Kaladin. 

 

Of course we have to remember that this is all speculation, Shallan might not even leave him. All we have are a few hints. We know that Kaladin is interested for sure but Shallan clearly has feeling for Adolin and while she does think about Kal after that night in the chasms, it's far from certain if she is really going to choose him over Adolin. 

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I also don't think that Adolin or Navani becoming radiants means they'll become the subjects of a book, or even grow in importance.  We know there will be several Radiants per order by the end, why not have either/both of them just be members of their particular orders, and continue to be recurring characters without ever getting into the spotlight?  

 

I guess I don't see it as any great transformation - in one of Dalinar's vision he's recruited because he can fight to come back to the seat of the radiants to bond a spren and join an order - the guy asking him doesn't seem to think anything more is necessary than he show up to become a radiant... 

 

As for Elhokar, same reasoning as above.  When Kaladin goes to save him he comments that at least Elhokar never gives up, even if he's a screw up.  He sees the cryptics, and I don't see why he couldn't undergo a character transformation over the course of the next 20 years or however long the story arc is.  I agree I can't stand the guy, but who better to make a turnaround and become something better? He doesn't want to be bad, just has a hard time committing himself to anything. 

 

Adolin is the third POV character: he has more POV than Dalinar or close to at the very least. Navani has had 3 POV. It is unfair to compare both characters in terms of importance. Keeping Navani into the background is understandable: the story does not need her being more fleshed out. To send Adolin into the background is plain awful because many of us, readers, have invested ourselves into his character. It was a normal thing to do considering the amount of time we do spend in his head. He is the third more fleshed out character: having had more development than Dalinar, so far. Of course, it pales in comparison to Kaladin and Shallan character development, but he still is third.

 

So anything happening to Adolin has to be major. An author just can't start to write a character, give him so much page time only to through him into the background. The fact he is not getting a book is a tragedy. No having read those dreaded WoB where Brandn confirmed over and over again how Adolin was not getting a book: I would have think he would. Why? Because he strikes me as more important than Renarin, Jasnah and pretty much anyone else getting one. He has POV and quite a lot of them. They don't. Any character with POV is more important, to the readers (well to me at least, I can't speak for all), than any character without them. 

 

What happens to Elhokar does not have to be major because he is a minor character. Of course, he can grow, they can all grow, but I personally don't think it will happen. Without a POV, Elhokar's story from awful human being to great one would bear no weight. Why write it at all?

 

 

Woah i think i might have expressed myself wrong here. When i said "human voidbringer" i didn't mean he will literally turn into a Voidbringer and start killing his loved ones. It was more a hyperbole to make clear that i did not mean that.

 

I just think he has shown what he is capable of if he is confronted with extreme emotion by killing Sadeas. Losing Shallan could bring him to a similar reaction. I believe he said multiple times that he "really doesn't want to lose this one" or "mess it up". It's not only losing her but losing her to Kaladin, who he just started to befriend. He might view it as a betrayal by both Shallan and Kaladin. 

 

Of course we have to remember that this is all speculation, Shallan might not even leave him. All we have are a few hints. We know that Kaladin is interested for sure but Shallan clearly has feeling for Adolin and while she does think about Kal after that night in the chasms, it's far from certain if she is really going to choose him over Adolin. 

 

Thanks for clarifying... You did make it sound as if "human voidbringer" was a thing. 

 

Losing Shallan would unsettle him, that's for sure. He'll be heartbroken. What would heartbroken Adolin do? Something very, very, very, very stupid I think, though not evil, just plain stupid. In other words, he'll put himself into trouble and probably danger as well as his pains will blind him to the consequences of his actions. However, being Adolin, the consequences are likely to be for himself than anyone else. He won't endanger his loved ones, but he may endanger himself to prove his point, to protect them, to make them believe he is still useful, to fix his own mess.... but not because he is turning evil.

Edited by maxal
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Thanks for clarifying... You did make it sound as if "human voidbringer" was a thing. 

 

Losing Shallan would unsettle him, that's for sure. He'll be heartbroken. What would heartbroken Adolin do? Something very, very, very, very stupid I think, though not evil, just plain stupid. In other words, he'll put himself into trouble and probably danger as well as his pains will blind him to the consequences of his actions. However, being Adolin, the consequences are likely to be for himself than anyone else. He won't endanger his loved ones, but he may endanger himself to prove his point, to protect them, to make them believe he is still useful, to fix his own mess.... but not because he is turning evil.

 

That's pretty much what i meant. I considered that he might run of and starts doing his own thing. Maybe join one of the organizations operating on Roshar. Hell, he might even get exiled for killing Sadeas. I just don't think he'll become a Radiant.

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That's pretty much what i meant. I considered that he might run of and starts doing his own thing. Maybe join one of the organizations operating on Roshar. Hell, he might even get exiled for killing Sadeas. I just don't think he'll become a Radiant.

 

You know, nobody thinks Adolin will become a Radiant in the next book... There are three books left to the first arc of Stormlight. Adolin, as a character, has to go somewhere. Everyone agrees the next book should feature his "fall from grace" and whereas many of us wishes for him to become a Radiant, none expect it to happen this early....

 

Even if he becomes a Radiant, Adolin will have plenty of time to explore the worst parts of his personality before that happens. Adolin just has this thing that is very reminiscent of other Radiants... He has a strong capital of sympathy among the readers, he rescues prostitutes and imprisoned darkeyes, he talks to his Blade and has guessed almost right as to its nature: these have to mean something. We must not forget Radiants are chosen by the sprens and as things currently are, Adolin does seem as someone a spren would choose, because he does the morally right thing. He puts his strength in front of others to stop abuse and finally walking out of his father's shadow is a journey in itself, just not a very direct one. 

 

As for running away, that's entirely possible, but he's then likely to run back the second he hears of a threat to his family or end up in such a predicament he'll need to be rescued. I sincerely doubt he'd ever join any organization on Roshar: they all work against Dalinar. As for banished Adolin, he would, I suspect, end up in a story arc similar to Vivienna in Warbreaker: he'll sink low, very, very low before he finds a reason to anchor himself back into reality. The problem is he likely would never come back, so he'd end up a wasted character, doing not much, never being able to join the others again.... He just has too much potential to be wasted as a character. He is too strongly ingrained in the story to simply ignore him. Heck, Brandon re-wrote WoK to include Adolin because without him, the story felt flat and confusing. 

 

I thus doubt the banishment story line will be used unless there is a twist added to it. Or unless Brandon wants to get rid of the character, but that would be a tragedy. I doubt the readers would like that anyway.

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To me the "family affinity" is wrong, or at least is wrong as "innate potential" with surgebinding.

 

Anyway there is "side factor" about the family.

One of the requirement for the Nahel Bond is to be a "broken" people, and to broke a people is needed a great/tragic event, the member or your family is probably (at least someone of them) broken by the same event like you.

 

About the Kholin's family they have a lot (if not most) political powers and Influence. Therefore the Spren may try to bond with such Influent people.

 

 

If you recall the interlude with the girl who absorbed her strength through eating (Lift?), the spren kept complaining that he thought he'd be set up with someone politically influential or a great scholar. I'm guessing a lot of spren will find their human counterparts in common people and not nobles, given what they went through during the recent wars and uprisings.

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