Stakes in the Stormlight Archive (buncha WoR spoilers)

[DSC01]

I want to talk about the stakes in the SA universe. I've noticed that a lot of people complain that the WoR plot really lowered the stakes for readers, with plot-armored characters coming back from the dead and such. Personally, I think those readers are getting it wrong.

 

WoR is telling us what the stakes even are in the Stomrlight Archive. When Jasnah gets stabbed in the heart at the beginning of the book, we shouldn't think for a second that she was actually dead. But we don't know enough about Radiants yet. By the end of the book, I was wondering when she would reappear, because by then, it was clear that a little knife wound wouldn't take her out.

 

As for Szeth's revival, that actually ratchets up the tension. Remember, Szeth is not a hero. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that, just because he's a cool character. It is not a cheap, throwaway plot point when it is revealed that a one-man army in the form of a homicidal lunatic can be brought back from the dead. And it isn't a ridiculous and contrived way to bring back a popular character; it actually makes sense according to internal logic of the books.

 

I am pretty sure that major characters are going to die eventually. WoR was a little early to begin killing them off, so instead, we got a book that explains just how hard it is to do that. To me, that actually raises the stakes. It makes it hard to know if a villain is ever really dead. It will make it that much more poignant when a character who can usually come back from anything short of decapitation is stuck without Stormlight when they take an injury.

[Patrick Star]

Personally, I considered WoK to be like a fine prime rib.  WoR came off more as a filet mignon.

 

Very good, but a little lighter and not quite as thick and flavorful.

 

On the topic of Szeth, remember that his current arc of actions was explained by Hoid in "Wandersail".  In the next book, he's going to do something really, really, really bad.  Absolutely awful.  I'm scared to see what'll happen.

[DSC01]

I was about to ask what made you think "Wandersail" was about Szeth, given the context of when Hoid told it, but I went ahead and pulled WoK off my bookshelf, and now I can't argue. 

 

I don't know, though. It certainly describes where he was during his last battle with Kaladin. I don't think it necessarily applies, now that Nalan has revived him. It may inform his actions to some degree, but the Skybreakers are all about law and order. Even if Nalan's interpretation of it is now pretty twisted, I don't think he's going to let Szeth burn the island down, so to speak.

 

As for your meat analogy, well, I've been a vegetarian for almost ten years now, so... Seriously, though, WoR may be a little lighter in tone at times, but I thought it was every bit as... thick and flavorful... 

[Patrick Star]

I don't know, though. It certainly describes where he was during his last battle with Kaladin. I don't think it necessarily applies, now that Nalan has revived him. It may inform his actions to some degree, but the Skybreakers are all about law and order. Even if Nalan's interpretation of it is now pretty twisted, I don't think he's going to let Szeth burn the island down, so to speak.

 

Nalan's been corrupted.  He no longer works to uphold the law.  He follows his own agenda, but is constrained by the law.  Two different things.

[Witborn]

Nalan's been corrupted. He no longer works to uphold the law. He follows his own agenda, but is constrained by the law. Two different things.

I don't know if we can say this for sure. We don't know what he was like before so we can't say for certain how different he is now. Unless there's a WOB I don't know about. You could very well be right but I hate saying things so definitively that have not been confirmed.

[Patrick Star]

I don't know if we can say this for sure. We don't know what he was like before so we can't say for certain how different he is now. Unless there's a WOB I don't know about. You could very well be right but I hate saying things so definitively that have not been confirmed.

 

He's going around slaughtering surgebinders and (I'm pretty sure, it's my pet theory) ordered Helaran to assassinate Amaram.  That's definitely NOT what he was before.

 

And all the heralds have been corrupted.  Kalak's a whimpering mess, Shallash is destroying all of the art that  depicts her, Vedel (I think it was Vedel) is though to be working in Taravangian's hospitals/evil murder barns, and so on.

[Grey Knight]

Nalan's been corrupted.  He no longer works to uphold the law.  He follows his own agenda, but is constrained by the law.  Two different things.

Best interpretation of how Nalan is now I have ever read.

He's going around slaughtering surgebinders and (I'm pretty sure, it's my pet theory) ordered Helaran to assassinate Amaram.  That's definitely NOT what he was before.

I think it's pretty clear he's hunting Surgebinders. The real question is, when is he going to come after Kaladin?

 

And how epic is their fight going to be? 

Edited October 8, 2015 by The Potato

[Witborn]

He's going around slaughtering surgebinders and (I'm pretty sure, it's my pet theory) ordered Helaran to assassinate Amaram. That's definitely NOT what he was before.

And all the heralds have been corrupted. Kalak's a whimpering mess, Shallash is destroying all of the art that depicts her, Vedel (I think it was Vedel) is though to be working in Taravangian's hospitals/evil murder barns, and so on.

We haven't seen Nalan except when he's "corrupted" so we can't say that for certain he's different from before. Those are all wonderful theories and probably very likely to end up true (though I think the drunk guy is Kelek and the guy at the end of WoK) but we can't treat it as fact because it hasn't been confirmed.

We have a tendency as a community to talk things through so thoroughly and draw logical conclusions at the end of amazing conversations. But usually, unless confined in world or by WoB, those remain theories. With how clever BS is, I don't want to treat any theory, no matter how sound, as fact, especially to people who may not have been present for the formation of such theories (which I know can be solved by a forum search an some research, but that's neither here nor there).

[KnightGradient]

Best interpretation of how Nalan is now I have ever read.

I think it's pretty clear he's hunting Surgebinders. The real question is, when is he going to come after Kaladin?

 

And how epic is their fight going to be? 

Nalan might find out that Kaladin was involved in a regicidal plot. I doubt Moash is going to be tight-lipped about his "betrayal".

As for the fight, according to my action figure calculations(I majored in it) it should be a 12.44 on the Godzilla Scale.

[Patrick Star]

Best interpretation of how Nalan is now I have ever read.

I think it's pretty clear he's hunting Surgebinders. The real question is, when is he going to come after Kaladin?

 

And how epic is their fight going to be? 

 

Thank you!

 

I'm not sure if Nalan will continue hunting surgebinders in the next book, I think he may move on to bigger targets (like the Stone Shamans).  Previously, he was killing surgebinders to prevent a desolation from occuring (or at least that's what he SAYS he's doing).

 

Now that the desolation has started, he may move to a Plan B.  Possibly taking the Honorblades from the Stone Shamans to build up his power?

[kwirked]

I didn't get the sense that Nalan, despite what he said, was trying to do anything for the good of anyone, but I also get the distinct impression that he will never tell a lie. It would go against his internal law and leave himself open to judgement.

My take on his little execution project was that he was going after nascent surge binders because they are easier to kill off than full fledged ones. To accmplish his goal I wouldn't think he'd need to kill every would-be radiant, just enough to tip the scales. If anything, I think kaladin would be the one to hunt Nalan down in order to protect others from him... Just my thoughts.

[Alfa]

I didn't get the sense that Nalan, despite what he said, was trying to do anything for the good of anyone, but I also get the distinct impression that he will never tell a lie. It would go against his internal law and leave himself open to judgement.

My take on his little execution project was that he was going after nascent surge binders because they are easier to kill off than full fledged ones. To accmplish his goal I wouldn't think he'd need to kill every would-be radiant, just enough to tip the scales. If anything, I think kaladin would be the one to hunt Nalan down in order to protect others from him... Just my thoughts.

 

Not sure if Kaladin or anybody else can hunt down a Herald without a ton of helpers. Taln's reflexes even in mentally unstable conditions are still much better than of any fully conscious ordinary human.

[Grey Knight]

Not sure if Kaladin or anybody else can hunt down a Herald without a ton of helpers. Taln's reflexes even in mentally unstable conditions are still much better than of any fully conscious ordinary human.

I'm not saying Kaladin is going to hunt Nalan. It's going to be the other way around. Probably.

 

And while we're on the topic of epic fights, how awesome (if it happens) is the fight between the new KR and the Stone Shamans going to be? Remember, Szeth has said that if he died, the Stone Shamans would come and retrieve his Blade. And, lucky him, Kaladin just so happens to have the Honorblade.

[DreamEternal]

I'm not saying Kaladin is going to hunt Nalan. It's going to be the other way around. Probably.

And while we're on the topic of epic fights, how awesome (if it happens) is the fight between the new KR and the Stone Shamans going to be? Remember, Szeth has said that if he died, the Stone Shamans would come and retrieve his Blade. And, lucky him, Kaladin just so happens to have the Honorblade.

You assume they will storm Urithiru shardblades alight and kill everyone in their way like Kelsier stealing Atium. They could very well try to take it silently if it is still unbounded.

[Alfa]

I am very, very, very sure that Stone Shamans try to use a little violence as possible in a very tight definition of "as possible".

[DreamEternal]

I am very, very, very sure that Stone Shamans try to use a little violence as possible in a very tight definition of "as possible".

While I don't believe the Stone Shamans are forbidden to use violence, since cult leaders often make themselves above their own laws and Szeth's behavior makes me think of someone brainwashed by a mad cult, I do think they wouldn't see a great magical battle as the most efficient method to recover the Honorblade.

[Grey Knight]

All of this is true. I'm not saying that the Stone Shamans will fight Kaladin for the Honorblade. What I think will most likely happen is the Stone Shamans try to steal the Honorblade, Kaladin sees this, Kaladin tries to stop this, and fight ensues.

[AerionBFII]

- Well if they lose Odium is free....Then Shards start dying.

- Szeth has teamed up with a psycho Herald and is no longer crippled and weakened by his guilt, this makes him less a frothing at the mouth slave and far more lethal opponent.

- So far there is what 6 KR vs how many Voidbringers and like 10 Unborn? Should be easy.

-Character Armor? This is the author who killed off Lightsong, Kelsier, Vin, Eland and BELLA!!

 

I think Stone Shamans are more like holy warriors than anything, they will use violence if they have to but retrieving Honor Blades is there main objective keeping casualties and witnesses to a minimum. 

 

The fact that they held like 8 Honor Blades with such power for so long but nobody on Roshar (except for a few individuals) new is testament to there discretion. 

[Navi]

Personally, I considered WoK to be like a fine prime rib. WoR came off more as a filet mignon.

Very good, but a little lighter and not quite as thick and flavorful.

On the topic of Szeth, remember that his current arc of actions was explained by Hoid in "Wandersail". In the next book, he's going to do something really, really, really bad. Absolutely awful. I'm scared to see what'll happen.

Imo wandersail describes szeth & the alethi who's god is dead

[Patrick Star]

Imo wandersail describes szeth & the alethi who's god is dead

 

Except he kind of isn't?  Tanavest may be gone, but people still have the Knights Radiant, the Honorblades, the shells of the Heralds, the Stormfather (basically Tanavest's ghost), the Nightwatcher, Cultivation, fabrials, and shards of the original radiants.  So Tanavest still left a large amount of legitimate influence on the world of Roshar.

 

Meanwhile, Szeth's Truthlessness was a lie from the start, and had no tangible manifestation outside of Szeth's actions. 

[Cruxer]

Nalan might find out that Kaladin was involved in a regicidal plot. I doubt Moash is going to be tight-lipped about his "betrayal".

As for the fight, according to my action figure calculations(I majored in it) it should be a 12.44 on the Godzilla Scale.

Darn it all, I'm still using the Original Dragon ball Scale. 

[Cruxer]

You assume they will storm Urithiru shardblades alight and kill everyone in their way like Kelsier stealing Atium. They could very well try to take it silently if it is still unbounded.

I imagine they are less like warriors and more like assassins. Think of stealthy Dakhor priests.

[Bort]

I doubt Kaladin even has the honourblade any longer. He went rushing off home to save his folks. Would it not make more sense for the honourblade to be left in Urithiru?

 

Dalinar vs the Stone Shamanate. He's the Bondsmith. He can take the opportunity to bring the Shin into the fold, and acquire the rest of the honourblades.

[natc]

I wonder how long it takes to bond the honorblade. Dead shardblades take a week, but they seem to take units of 10 for everything due to being dead, and I think a week is 10 days on Roshar.

[Alfa]

A week is five days long, a month is ten weeks, a year isten months, a highstorm cycle is two years; going from lightday (with highstorm, i thin) to lightday also with highstorm, so a cycle has exactly 1000 days.

Probably it takes two weeks to bind a honorblade or something like that.